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    Safer Research Chemical User's Guide 
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    Bluelighter illuminati boy's Avatar
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    Tractatus Investigationis Chemici
    (Handling of Research Chemicals)

    Being a semi brief but concise treatise on the safer and more responsible investigation of the compounds commonly referred to as ‘Research Chemicals.’

    Fraters Illuminati Boy, Et Al.




    --------------------------------------------
    Disclaimer:
    The information herein presented has been created to assist in promoting harm reduction relating to the investigation of so-called ‘Research Chemicals.’ Nothing in this document should be construed as an enticement to violate the laws of your land. Nothing in this document is meant to imply that ‘Research Chemicals’ are in any way ‘safe’ or ‘legal;’ as the former is a relative judgment even when sufficient data is available and the latter is usually predicated on the variable of one’s particular location in space-time. All of the information for this treatise was based on theoretical conjecture rather than empirical research. It is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or cause anything that might be misconstrued as a disease by Health Canada, the FDA, or the WHO.
    --------------------------------------------


    INDEX:

    Title Page
    Disclaimer
    Index
    Very Basic Information
    Inquiring After More Information
    Deciding Whether to Become a Researcher
    Acquiring Compounds to Research
    Testing / Verifying Compounds
    Ways of Measuring Out Doses
    Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Dosing, but Were Afraid to Ask
    Reporting (AKA Everybody Run Here Comes SWIM!)
    Distributing
    Risk / Benefit Reevaluation
    Some Required Reading
    Some Additional Resources
    Discussion
    Appendix A: Shulgin Rating Scale.
    Appendix B: DOSRS Rating Scale.


    --------------------------------------------
    Last edited by illuminati boy; 26-12-2005 at 02:37.
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    Very Basic Information 
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    Very Basic Information:


    The compounds commonly referred to as ‘Research Chemicals’ are simply chemicals that have not been researched very much. They usually have a limited (or in some cases non-existent) history of human ingestion. While usually the moniker refers to compounds from PiHKAL and TiHKAL and their progeny, a research chemical may be an inert compound, a stimulant, a depressant, a psychedelic, an empathogen, a toxin, or even a cutting edge prototype pharmaceutical agent. The compounds referred to as ‘Research Chemicals’ really do not necessarily have anything in common with each other beyond humanity’s general ignorance about them, their effects, and their safety (both short and long-term). Each ‘Research Chemical’ is a unique arrangement of atoms and is really not ‘the same as’ any other chemical legal, illegal, safe, or dangerous. ‘Research Chemicals’ certainly ARE NOT “Legal LSD,” “Safer Ecstasy,” “Synthetic Mushrooms,” or “Herbal Anything.”

    Before reading any further in this treatise you are strongly encouraged to at least familiarize yourself with Erowid’s Research Chemicals FAQ if you have not dose so already. It is a brief Q&A overview of the basics. It can be found at: http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/...hems_faq.shtml

    Also, please read the entire treatise before making any decisions about possibly investigating any ‘Research Chemicals.’ In fact, please find out everything you can about ‘Research Chemicals’ before making any decisions on the matter. Research the topic as if you and your research monkeys’ physical health, mental health, and life depended on it… as they may!
    Last edited by illuminati boy; 26-12-2005 at 02:23.
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    Inquiring After More Information 
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    Inquiring After More Information:


    Giving information about all or even most of the compounds considered ‘Research Chemicals’ is far beyond the scope of this treatise as there are many hundreds if not many thousands of them. Luckily there is some degree of information available about many of the more commonly researched compounds. This section will discuss how you may acquire additional information about ‘Research Chemicals’ generally or about certain compounds in particular.

    It is possible that you may be able to find out information about various compounds from; doing internet searches, talking with associates who are knowledgeable about the subject, from suppliers, from drug discussion forums, drug information libraries such as Erowid.org, medical journals, chemistry journals, PiHKAL, TiHKAL, and even academic conferences. Not all sources of information are equal and that is especially true of this topic. It is possible that even competent medical doctors, psychologists, or pharmacists are quite ignorant about the particulars of ‘Research Chemicals;’ so it is very unlikely that your friends, associates, or local area dealer will know much of use on the topic.

    Probably the best starting place would be either PiHKAL or TiHKAL if it is a compound contained in either book. One could then perform lit searches if looking for scientific data or try searching Erowid or one of the larger / more popular internet drug forums if you were looking for a description of phenomenological / experiential effects in man. One could try using public law searches to see if any of the compounds might be covered by existing laws or if your country has something like an ‘Analog Act’ or ‘Catch Most Act’ prohibiting the ingestions of compounds for psychoactive effects.

    Also, one will need to acquire much more information beyond just which chemicals might do what to whom and in which doses… one will need to seriously investigate resources to better educate themselves about how psychoactive compounds work in organisms and how drugs are administered and metabolized. Be prepared to do at least some reading on basic chemistry, organic chemistry, pharmacy, psychopharmacology, nursing techniques, and scientific balances in addition to educating oneself about all that is known about a given compound.

    Generally speaking PiHKAL, TiHKAL, and journal articles in peer-reviewed publications should be considered to be accurate with a fairly high degree of confidence (though they are by no means perfect, and your research can always produce idiosyncratic / unexpected results).

    Erowid.org generally is a fairly decent resource, but many of the individuals who post ‘trip reports’ about first person experiences with various drugs do so anonymously. If someone posts they took 100 mg. of compound XY-Z it may in fact be true or it could be a hoax. Further their biochemistry may be such that the dosage they related may not be typical of a survivable dosage for others. Also, many persons ingesting compounds unfortunately do not really know what they are ingesting and do not really measure with any real degree of accuracy, so that report of 100 mg. of XY-Z could easily have in fact been 50 mg. of some other compound entirely. Lastly, the reports on Erowid may be biased toward the very glowing and/or the very horrific… after all not as many people are apt to take the time to sit down and write a detailed report about a blasé experience.

    Internet drug discussion forums begin to have a much poorer signal / noise ratio compared to the above. If you ‘hang out’ for a while at one of the discussion boards, it will start to become obvious who the more knowledgeable persons are. The discussions really run the gamut from teenagers who think LSD crystallizes in your spine, smoking toilet paper will get you high, and other such nonsense to persons who are clearly very well educated in chemistry, psychopharmacology, perceptual psychology, and/or the medical arts. Some of the discussion boards require entrance essays to keep the discussion higher brow, while others may have specific boards dedicated to focus discussion about scholarly articles or ‘Research Chemicals’ in particular. If every other post is asking a very basic question or is someone trying to get people to tell them where to acquire chemicals at, it is probably a good idea to look for a board with a higher caliber of discussion. Needless to say, any posts on any of the drug forums (no matter how sophisticated or high brow) should be taken with a grain of salt. Some persons may be posting exaggerated doses with the mistaken thought that doing so will make them look cool or hardcore, when really their false bravado only serves to convey their ignorance and/or stupidity, while putting the credulous at risk. Also even if the dosage posted is accurate, it may well be the case that they are currently taking other medications, have built up a tolerance to the compound due to frequent use, or just got lucky after taking a dose that could have possibly killed them. Again any dosages posted on drug forums should be carefully scrutinized and not just taken verbatim.

    Probably the least reliable source of information would be either your relatively uneducated friends or a street level dealer. Your friends (unless say they have a background in medical science, chemistry, psychology, pharmacology, or have very thoroughly researched this topic themselves) likely know very little on the topic of ‘Research Chemicals.’ Much of what they may ‘know’ may be an amalgam of 3rd hand stories, internet chartroom hype, and drug war propaganda. Possibly a just as bad or even worse place to turn would be a street level dealer. While it is possible that they may have some information about various compounds, it may be biased toward hype and/or minimization of possible negative effects. In at least one instance (in Japan) a street vendor was reportedly distributing 2C-T-7 saying “this is like acid” “eat, sniff OK.” This was well after 2C-T-7 was known to have been implicated in deaths from insufflations. The compound was apparently being distributed without warnings about possible risks and ways to minimize them. The moral of the story, be very critical of any information you come across and double or triple check before any consideration of researching.
    Last edited by illuminati boy; 26-12-2005 at 02:24.
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    Deciding Whether to Become a Researcher 
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    Deciding Whether to Become a Researcher:


    So you have read up on some of the compounds referred to as ‘Research Chemicals,’ you have brushed up on your basic chemistry and biology, and you have started to seriously study what you can in the area of psychopharmacology. You have read up on your local laws and you have checked your bank balances. You are now ready to sit down and do an educated risk / benefit analysis. Only you can decide what an acceptable/manageable level of risk is. Below are some focus questions that you should consider.

    Legal / Residential:

    In many parts of the world non-institutional / non-approved research in psychoactive drugs can get you in a lot of trouble. The situation currently with regard to non-sanctioned direct research into the human mind is very much like the situation with regard to the non-sanctioned research into the human body and other sciences that occurred 500 years ago. During that time the Church and many principalities had taboos and prohibitions about direct examination of human corpses. Medical schools would often have to hire lookouts to keep watch when a dissection was about to take place. Some schools even had trap doors installed that would allow the bodies to be quickly cached in the event of a ‘bust.’ As late as the late 1500’s / 1600’s “calculing” (calculating) was considered sorcery and books on the subject were burned by the Tudor authorities. Looking through Galileo’s telescope was feared to cause the viewer to be deluded or go crazy. Johannes Kepler had to frequently move in order to find the optimal political environment in which to conduct his research. In short, doing research outside of mainstream sensibilities has historically been risky business. It is no less so today.

    Some questions to consider:

    What are the current laws regarding various ‘Research Chemicals’ and their possession in my home country?

    Am I willing to move to another country/state/province/municipality that has more favorable laws regarding such research?

    How negatively would my life be impacted by an arrest? (Would it result in loss of employment? Would paying for legal representation bankrupt you? Could you loose professional licenses and the like? Etc.)

    How negatively would my life be impacted by a conviction / serving time in prison?

    Are you ready to flush your chemicals, burn your journal, and drill your hard drive at a moment’s notice?

    Physical Health:

    If you are considering self-experimentation you must consider how physically fit you are. Do you have any heart/cardiac concerns that could be exacerbated if you took a stimulant or had a panic reaction? How is your blood pressure? How bothered are you by smoke or dust (if you are considering pyrolyzing or insufflating compounds)? Do you have any seizure disorders? Do you know if you have an abnormal liver that may complicate how drugs are metabolized in vivo? Do you have multiple allergies? Do you have any metabolic disorder? Do you have any rare, unusual, or named after your family illnesses of any kind? Does the thought of taking a few flights of stairs give you pause? How many years do you think experimenting with ‘Research Chemicals’ might add or take away from your life?

    Mental Health:

    If you are possibly considering self-experimentation you must take into account how mentally stable and psychologically healthy you are at the present time. Have you ever had treatment for any psychological, psychiatric, or substance use problems? Do you have an ‘addictive personality?’ Do you have a family history that is positive for mental illness, suicide, alcoholism, or ‘nervous breakdowns?’ How well do you handle or react to stressful situations? How well do you react to novel situations? Are you open to questioning your fundamental personal, philosophical, and religious beliefs? Do you get angry easily? Do you get anxious often? Do you fear loss of control?

    Social Risk / Embarrassment:

    What would happen if your family found out you were ‘using drugs?’ What would your neighbors or community do if information got out about your research? Would your family disown you if you were charged with a crime? Do you embarrass easily? Do you react poorly to humiliation? How much do you care about what others think of you?

    Economic Issues:

    Becoming seriously involved with ‘Research Chemicals’ can run into the thousands of dollars. At a minimum there is the procuring of the compounds themselves which can be costly, especially if one is getting a very obscure compound or having a custom synthesis done. If you are going to research these compounds you will want to get a balance capable of accurately measuring to the 1-2 mg. range or better. These scales can sometimes be found cheaply by bargain shopping at internet auction and science resale sites, but be prepared to spend a minimum of $100 or considerably more in order to acquire a scale sufficiently accurate and precise. Depending on how seriously you are taking your research you may want to consider investing in a blood pressure cuff, EpiPen, and possibly some other research accoutrements.

    Time Issues:

    This is not an endeavor for the cavalier or impatient. If you are seriously interested in investigating these compounds you should be willing to spend time in learning as much as you can about them specifically and the actions of drugs and the human nervous system generally. Just the education piece can take a considerable amount of time if you do not already have a grounding in chemistry, psychology, pharmacology, or medicine. It can also take some time to titrate up on dosing so as to be safe. Further, some of the compounds may last over 24 hours and/or have significant after-effects. Unless you have some disposable time on your hands investigating ‘Research Chemicals’ may not be for you.
    Last edited by illuminati boy; 26-12-2005 at 02:47.
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    Acquiring Compounds to Research 
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    Acquiring Compounds to Research:


    While this treatise will not discuss any specific locations of where to procure any of the so called ‘Research Chemicals,’ it will discuss some of the general categories of places that have been reportedly distributing them in the past.

    In the past ‘Research Chemicals’ were sold from the United States through various web based businesses. The compounds were fairly openly sold and were generally of fairly high quality. In July 2004 a number of these vendors were raided by the DEA (US Drug Enforcement) and their owners and operators charged under US Analog Laws. Some of the indictments specifically listed 5-MeO-DMT, 5-MeO-AMT, 5-MeO-DiPT, and 4-AcO-DiPT as analogues. In Japan some of the compounds appear to still be legal and may still be sold there by either street vendors or in clubs. Reportedly 2C-I was showing up in pills in Europe and 2C-C has reportedly been found on large blotter papers. It is also always possible that true researchers may be synthesizing compounds themselves or ordering custom commercial syntheses in countries where doing so is legal.

    Anything that comes from a commercial lab complete with analysis etc. will probably be of the highest quality one can reasonably expect, though it would be wise to have the purity/composition independently verified. If one is capable of doing a precise synthesis on their own it could yield fairly reliable results… but if one is capable of this level of sophistication already they probably would not be reading this treatise. Probably the least likely to be pure/actually what is being advertised would be a street level dealer sold pill. Who knows what might be in there.

    Even if certain compounds are still legal (or not illegal) in the country where you are doing research, it may be the case that chemical or research supply houses will be leery of selling to non-institutional researchers or producing compounds that may conceivably be ‘toeing the line’ even if not explicitly proscribed.
    Ordering compounds from other countries presents a range of problems. Even if they are legal, should they be searched by customs / border security they may likely be seized even if no chargers are brought as little packages containing powders and pills tends to get the attention of customs officials. Arranging payment in foreign lands can sometimes present a problem. It may be difficult to arrange on a mutually agreeable payment option or it may be difficult to ascertain a foreign company’s reputability if one does not speak the native language or have business contacts there. There is also something to be said about the different forms of payment that may be accepted. Cash / International Money Order can be quite anonymous, but there is little ability trace it should it vanish. Wire transfer definitely confirms receipt, but kind of seems like something out of a 80’s cop show ‘Yes please wire money to the following account in Switzerland… its for um a Swedish penis enlarger yea that’s it…’
    Last edited by illuminati boy; 26-12-2005 at 02:25.
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    Testing / Verifying Compounds 
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    Testing / Verifying Compounds:


    Some companies that were willing to do syntheses in the past may have been willing to get an independent lab to assay the final yield. Some countries have harm reduction services that may be able to provide some testing of compounds, though most of these probably will not be to the exacting standards that would be ideal. Even if a company is fairly reputable and say provides lab assays and an MSDS with their shipment, it is always possible that human error could have come into play. One only need read some of the forums to find out about chemical mix-ups. Probably best to have a trusted friend who is a chemistry geek skilled in chromatography.

    If the compound is in something like a pill, blotter, etc. it may be harder to verify contents or rule-out it containing additional active materials.
    Last edited by illuminati boy; 26-12-2005 at 02:57.
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    #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by illuminati boy View Post
    Deciding Whether to Become a Researcher:
    I don't think I've ever heard anything so pretentious in all my life. Necking random powders you buy on the internet makes you a researcher like jogging on the freeway makes you a Buick.
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    #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger&Me View Post
    I don't think I've ever heard anything so pretentious in all my life. Necking random powders you buy on the internet makes you a researcher like jogging on the freeway makes you a Buick.
    Maybe jogging on the freeway after necking random powders you buy on the internet makes you a Buick?

    Other than that little statement though, I think this article is nice for HR, I think it could do with a million and one warnings about how we know very little at all about these compounds and you could end up a statistic if you don't experiment responsibly though.
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    #9
    Damn, I bet that took a lot of thought to write. It reads like a manual for conducting amateur research. Was that your intent?
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    #10
    Bluelighter Blowmonkey's Avatar
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    Awesome guide, IB. This one should definitely go in the FAQ forum when finished, way better then what we've got now, that old one just refers to murples RC FAQ on erowid, pretty tacky.

    The only thing I wanna comment on is:
    What’s Up With SWIM? Apparently this guy and his buddy ‘My Pet Hamster’ do all sorts of wild and crazy things. SWIM is presumed to be an acronym for Someone Who Isn’t Me. He and Pet Hamsters appear to do most of the research in this field for some strange reason no one has yet figured out.
    Add something along the lines of: "SWIM is also a useless acronym, using it will not secure your safety, all it does is annoy people"..

    And a minor suggestion, put the questions starting a new paragraph in bold, reads a bit easier.
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    #11
    Bluelighter illuminati boy's Avatar
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    Cool
    Quote Originally Posted by J. Alfred Prufrock
    Damn, I bet that took a lot of thought to write. It reads like a manual for conducting amateur research. Was that your intent?
    It is clearly a parody of an old Latin underground scientific research manual posted for novelty puposes.

    I B
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    #12
    Bluelighter illuminati boy's Avatar
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    Cool
    Ok this cat will probably be busy for the next few days… but feel free to post your comments and slice and dice.

    I look forward to some good critiques by Fast and Bulbous, gloggawogga, fizzacyst, BilZ0r, and the rest of the PD and ADD regulars. Who knows we might be able to replace the Official Crappy Research Chemical FAQ with something a little more up to date and useful.

    I B
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    #13
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    ^^ Was working on the easier reading part while you posted... as for our ole pal SWIM... Will have to pust something like "SWIM provides a poster about as much protection as 'Not For Human Consumption' did for RAC."

    I B
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    #14
    Bluelighter Blowmonkey's Avatar
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    As long as you put something in there discouraging people from using it, it's so annoying.

    Another suggestion for "should I go to the hospital" would be: "grab the activated charcoal in case of an (oral) overdose, given not too much time has passed since dosing."
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    #15
    I think the DOSRS Rating Scale is what would appeal to someone looking to get fucked up. Maybe that's exactly what's needed and what you intended.

    You say "While there are currently several accepted scales that can roughly quantify overall level of drug effect, no scale in regular use relates the subject’s overall personal judgment of a material’s worth."

    I'd like to hear about these "several accepted scales" to see how they wouldn't measure a material's worth. For example this one:

    "Dose-Response Study of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine in Human. II. Subjective Effects and Preliminary Results of a New Rating Scale," Archives of General Psychiatry 51 (1994): 98-108 Rick J. Strassman, Clifford R. Qualls, Eberhard H. Uhlenhuth, and Robert Kellner.

    Since you say that there are "several accepted scales", you must have references for them. What are they?
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    #16
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    Stuck this thread, so it will get more visibility. I'll comment on it if/when I get time.
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    #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Alfred Prufrock
    I think the DOSRS Rating Scale is what would appeal to someone looking to get fucked up. Maybe that's exactly what's needed and what you intended.

    You say "While there are currently several accepted scales that can roughly quantify overall level of drug effect, no scale in regular use relates the subject’s overall personal judgment of a material’s worth."

    I'd like to hear about these "several accepted scales" to see how they wouldn't measure a material's worth. For example this one:

    "Dose-Response Study of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine in Human. II. Subjective Effects and Preliminary Results of a New Rating Scale," Archives of General Psychiatry 51 (1994): 98-108 Rick J. Strassman, Clifford R. Qualls, Eberhard H. Uhlenhuth, and Robert Kellner.

    Since you say that there are "several accepted scales", you must have references for them. What are they?
    A couple of points…

    In the above quote ‘in regular use’ really pertains to general non-specialist discussion of ‘Research Chemicals’ on boards such as this or in Trip Reports. One is quite aware of many alternate scales/ways of quantifying drug effects that may be used in academic research or Rx drug trials. One just does not see something like the ACRI Amphetamine Scale or some similar measure catching on in non scholarly discussions. So one created their own scale that met a couple of criteria 1) Simple to apply and understand 2) Fixed data point anchors that are sensible and realistic 3) Small number of response choices with a midpoint and two extreme points 4) Little extra effort required in order to type 5) Communicates important data.

    In regard to ‘several accepted scales’ for rating psychedelic compounds one is aware of several scholarly and non-scholarly scales relevant to discussion of psychedelic drugs. Strassman’s Hallucinogen Rating Scale (HRS) (up through version 3.06 anyway), Metzner’s Altered States Graphic Profile (ASGP), Shulgin’s Rating Scale, Graeme Carl’s Psychedelic Level System, Siebert’s SALVIA Experiential Rating Scale, ‘Plateaus,’ etc.

    The problem with most of the scales is that they address intensity, types of effects, duration, etc. or discus a specific experience, but do not really specifically focus on the subject’s subjective valuation of the compound in total… or if they do they tend to do so in an unwieldy manner. The 2 scales included above address 2 different things intensity of an acute experience and overall assessment of the compound in question. They may not be perfect or the only such scales, but they are compact and easy to use. Nothing like the DOSRS appears to be in general use on drug discussion boards, so there it is. In specific regard to the other scales mentioned above: Strassman has a beautiful scale… but 100 item questionnaires will not happen outside of clinical trials. Metzner’s scale is ideally for graphing over time. Shulgin’s scale gives an overview of effect intensity but does not say if a compound is worthwhile. Graeme Carl’s System may be particular to a few tryptamines. Siebert’s SALVIA Scale is clearly very drug specific. Etc. At any rate, there is really no compact way that people in a forum like this can communicate their overall subjective rating of a compound other than the DOSRS (so far as one is aware or fits the ideal criterion etc.).

    Overall though, one is looking to make a better end product, so if you have some alternate suggestions in the area of scales etc. would love to hear them. Any other feedback would also be greatly appreciated.


    I B

    (PS Bear in mind that the above treatise was composed rather quickly so one is sure there is plenty of room for both pruning and growth)
    Last edited by illuminati boy; 26-12-2005 at 21:39.
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    #18
    Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm very impressed by that summary. Excellent work!
    Last edited by J. Alfred Prufrock; 28-12-2005 at 20:20.
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    #19
    I_B kudos for the massive effort.

    once the V1 is condensed and / or this thread is filtered, may i have the privilege of cross-posting to my forums, all author rights reserved, of course?

    do what thou wilt
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    #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanobrain
    once the V1 is condensed and / or this thread is filtered, may i have the privilege of cross-posting to my forums, all author rights reserved, of course?
    Here is the game plan at present: One will pretty much hold off on making any changes to the present draft until about the 1st or 2nd week in January, after people have had sufficient time to comment and add suggestions.

    In the interim if people would like to post a link to this thread in other forums and encourage folks the world over to comment that would be great. If any folks suggest some significant revisions that get incorporated into the final draft, one will be more than happy to put their name on this work as well (if they consent).

    One’s current plan is to make the final product public domain provided the content is not altered and it contains a link to the original source. It will most likely be ‘housed’ here at BL, but could conceivably end up at Erowid if the final product is sharp enough and they and the consensus here think it appropriate.

    So feel free to critique / chop away folks!

    I B
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    Thanks to Illuminati Boy. 
    #21
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    Well done I B. most impressive and thorough, personally i can't see anything that you've missed, i like the "location in space and time" comment .
    I reckon that you deserve gratitude for this effort.
    So thank you Illuminati Boy, compliments of the season and all that.

    zophen.
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    #22
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    Awesome job IB! I can tell you took your time and really put your heart and mind into it. BTW I was giving you plenty of feedback on the dosrs scale when you posted on the temp page. I just didn't bother to register so my posts were coming up as guest. Once again, cheers and kudos.

    spun
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    #23
    i'm tempted to heckle over some of the finer points (as in distribution... : / ) but for the most part, i congratulate your effort to embetter the situation for everyone. big ups.
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    #24
    Bluelighter illuminati boy's Avatar
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    ^ Any particular suggestions? As for that part, one would ideally want to dissuade distribution, but still one wants to suggest harm-reduction approaches for each possible aspect of this subject. The same goes with IV… while one would never recommend it to anyone in any way, it is better that people be informed and aware of the possible hazards.

    Again though Fwoosh, if you have any suggestions (even tiny alterations in wording etc.) please feel free to post as one would look forward to seeing them and how well they might do in place of current language.

    I B
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    #25
    Bluelighter Toltec's Avatar
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    Thanks for that IB~
    Last edited by Toltec; 04-01-2006 at 16:25.
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