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    The implications of sexual cannibalism *NSFW* 
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    *WARNING* The following text deals with extremely dark subject matter that has literally made me nauseated while researching it. I do, however, believe that investigating these questions may reveal dark but very true corners of the human condition, and that it is my responsibility as a person to ask them.

    There are horrific cases of sexualized cannablism that seem to suggest that cannibalistic compulsions may underlie normal human lust. One of the most prominent was the murder of Bernd Brandes by Armin Meiwes. In an extraordinary example of masochism, Brandes willingly allowed Meiwes to eat his testicles while he was alive. Brandes penis was severed with a knife and eaten as well, and Brandes was allowed to bleed to death over several hours. The event was videotaped and it was verified that Brandes participated willingly.

    While it is easy to dismiss one case as stemming from some sort of neurological aberrations in the participants, we also see sexualized cannibalism in modern day Africa. In the early 2000s in Congo, rape and cannibalism were reported to coincide sporadically across the region. The claims are backed by a UN investigation into the phenomena (you may have seen it alluded to in the film “District 9,” also see “Trouble Every Day” for an artistic exploration of the connection between sex and cannibalism). Rebels would go into villages and rape the women and children, then dismember them alive while eating their flesh. There are many reports of family members being forced to eat the flesh of other murdered family members after being raped. Many of the children that survived these ordeals were then sold into sexual slavery. The men committing these atrocities do not have any neurological aberrations, they simply have the power to exercise this behavior. While cannibalism has been practiced in Africa as part of spiritual traditions for centuries, sadistic sexualized torture is not part of that tradition. So why add it in? Presumably the rebels didn’t all happen to be born child rapists either, yet raping children is part of their terror campaign and they must be able to achieve an erection to carry out the task, and so it must be assumed they learned to like it. How could this be?

    My question is how does cannibalism and power lust figure into the sexual spectrum, if at all? Is it an extreme form of sadism? Is pedophilia a form of sadism where the perpetrator derives a sense of power from his or her physical and emotional dominance over a child? Is cannibalism the next more extreme expression of this sexual power lust, a kind of ultimate domination where the perpetrator literally consumes all that is the other, a kind of literal predatory behavior? Is this a monstrosity inherent in the human condition that only needs the right conditions to manifest itself?
     

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    Bluelighter MrM's Avatar
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    While cannibalism has been practiced in Africa as part of spiritual traditions for centuries, sadistic sexualized torture is not part of that tradition. So why add it in? Presumably the rebels didn’t all happen to be born child rapists either, yet raping children is part of their terror campaign and they must be able to achieve an erection to carry out the task, and so it must be assumed they learned to like it. How could this be
    Soldiers rape because rape is fun, assuming you have no sense of morality (or have had it suspended by being forced to take part in a brutal and sensless war). Rape is just sex without consent - if the lack of consent doesn't bother you i can only presume raping someone is enjoyable.

    The reason why soldiers might be encouraged to rape, butcher and maybe even canabilise their enemies, is to create terror. It's just psychological warfare. The soldier on the ground may be doing it because it's fun; the commanders allow it because it's a useful weapon of war.

    I don't think you can say that canabilism underlies normal human lust. Extreme examples like Armin Meiwes and similar don't suggest to me everyone else has these as secret desires somehow.

    I suspect it is down to sadism and power when the individual enjoys this kind of thing and down to psychology and terror when armies are encouraged to perform such acts. I don't think you need to infer that all sexual lust has an element of this darkness to it.
    Last edited by MrM; 18-05-2010 at 14:32.
     

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    Thank you for responding. I know this isn't the funnest topic to discuss and I appreciate your input.

    I suppose I could entertain, as you suggest, that the rape of an adult woman is fun if you have no sense of morality, but I’m speaking about the rape of children and eating the flesh of fellow human beings. If you lack a sense of morality, does raping children and cannibalizing them then become fun? Encouragement by commanders or not, these men need to be physiologically able to rape. How can they be erect and able to commit the atrocity yet still be totally repulsed by the idea of what they’re doing? Mustn’t they have the desire?

    I’m not saying that everyone has these desires secretly as you seem to think. I’m saying that these facts suggest that there is an innate potential in us for this kind of behavior. Perhaps in situations of extreme differences in power dynamics genes are turned on that instantiate the compulsions pushing men to behave this way. Nevertheless, it remains innate.
    Last edited by psood0nym; 18-05-2010 at 05:54.
     

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    Bluelighter MrM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psood0nym View Post
    I’m not saying that everyone has these desires secretly as you seem to think. I’m saying that these facts suggest that there is an innate potential in us for this kind of behavior. Perhaps in situations of extreme differences in power dynamics genes are turned on that instantiate the compulsions pushing men to behave this way. Nevertheless, it remains innate.
    Fair enough. I would say we have an innate compulsion towards sex and an innate ability to comit violence. Events such as you describe occur when the two are allowed to meet.


    I think raping children probably is enjoyable, in the same was as raping an adult, asuming again you have no sense of morality. Also people experience a compulsion to have sex - they don't necessarily think logically about exactly how good that sex will be and turn it down before hand if they don't think it will be up to par.

    I don't think there is a specific compulsion towards sex and violence, just two individual compulsions that sometimes combine in the right (or wrong maybe?) circumstances.

    I suspect another factor is machismo. There is going to be a lot of testosterone and adrenalin involved in war, if all your 'friends' are doing it then you might go along with it so as not to stand out.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrM View Post
    I think raping children probably is enjoyable, in the same was as raping an adult, asuming again you have no sense of morality. Also people experience a compulsion to have sex - they don't necessarily think logically about exactly how good that sex will be and turn it down before hand if they don't think it will be up to par.
    I don't understand why you think a sense of morality is the only obstacle to enjoying raping a child and eating it. If you are a heterosexual male don't you feel a revulsion to the idea in, not the same, but a similar way you do to having sex with an elderly man or a pig?

    It seems to me that the repulsion occurs at the level of deep emotional reaction and that while certainly morality is bound up with these feelings to a degree, it is not necessary that we logically access and consider such behavior to not desire it. The men must learn to desire committing the atrocity in order to carry it out as they do as presumably not all of them were born with the compulsion. They cannot remain detached from the awareness of what they're doing yet remain physiologically engaged as they do it. I don't doubt, for instance, that there are child molesters that hate what they do and are fully aware that it is wrong. I don't think they're necessarily morally bankrupt, it's that the desire is largely independent of morality and stronger than their ability to resist.

    I agree that conformity and implied social permissiveness plays an immense role in the behavior of the soldiers, but again it comes down to a sense of extreme power over the victims, as it is being part of an armed group unified against the unarmed that provides the sense of extreme power. However, situations of extreme power dynamics and ethnic hate have been frequent throughout human history, they have been a norm in the human environment. This seems to suggest the unacceptable conclusion that the desire to sadistically rape and murder children and eat their flesh is at some level an innate and natural human desire.

    EDIT: So what right do we have to condemn these atrocities if we must admit that we -- or our little brothers, or our fathers -- would very likely have behaved the same way in these mens' situation? Yet how can we ask anyone to forgive them, and how could we forgive ourselves? And if situations of extreme differences in power dynamics are part of the natural historical environment, in some way aren't we as human beings born as monstrosities?
    Last edited by psood0nym; 18-05-2010 at 19:31.
     

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    Bluelighter jpgrdnr's Avatar
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    There is the cultural idea that performing cannabalism one gains the power of the person who has been eaten. Also degredation plays a strong role in rape. In a vast majority of cases rape does not involve intercourse but merely the humiliation of the act.
     

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    I don't think we are innately possessive of the ability to eat each other or perform grotesque acts. I think when certain circumstances arrive it becomes easier to do so. Not that the acts are justified, just there is a but more of a rationale to it. War being the primary example. Or in the case of molesters themselves were molested. Also I think what is innate in some people is that there are traits genetically and or physically manifested such as brain trauma or even socially constructed to commit great terror on one's fellow man. these are the obvious points. For the majority? No...even if cannablism was a last resort I would rather die than commit the act. I think a good analogy on a similar level is the Holocaust and how people slaughtered others knowingly in vile ways. Something about full metal jacket and the duality of man possessing the power to create great works and yet be a living terror.
     

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    In the case of Congo intercourse is involved. The men must be able to achieve an erection and ejaculate. The reason they need to is because it's part of the destabilizing campaign. They purposely spread AIDS to women and children this way. Women who are raped and children born of rape are rejected by their societies, thereby creating innumerable homeless people who destabilize the society and help keep opposition forces in power.

    This is from the Rape in DRC Final Report:
    The argument tying rape solely to power,
    not sexual desire, Baldwin Argues, “ignores the way sexual desire has often been framed as a theater of power while power has been gendered. If the fundamental relationship of male to female was one of rule, then sexual desire and intercourse were invariably mixed with relations of power (2002:21).
    Also, there are a large number of incidents where the sex and violent sadism are inexorably tied together.
    Perceived as a particularly effective weapon of war and used to subdue, punish, or take revenge upon entire communities, acts of sexual and gender-based violence increased concomitantly. Attacks have comprised individual rapes, sexual abuse, gang rapes, mutilation of genitalia, and
    rape-shooting or rape-stabbing combinations, at times undertaken after family members have been tied up and forced to watch. The perpetrators have come from among virtually all of the armies, militias and gangs implicated in the conflicts, including local bands and police forces that attacked their own communities
    Again, these are normal males from all walks of life with the hate and the opportunity to commit these crimes. They do not need to be part of a cult that brainwashes them into this behavior, it emerges from a wide variety of horrific circumstances and the possession of power as though it is an instinctual compulsion felt, exercised and sexually enjoyed in reaction to the conditions. Yes there is a sick systematic logic to the terrorism, too, but they must enjoy what they are doing in order for it to work. We are compelled to believe these acts are not pleasurable because of the awful things it implies about our own humanity and the humanity of those we love. I agree with you that I would rather die than commit these acts, but I say that as a person living a blessed life of convenience and leisure. Perhaps our minds and identities themselves are subject to complete reconfiguration when exposed to these historically common circumstances.
    Last edited by psood0nym; 18-05-2010 at 22:12.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrM View Post
    Soldiers rape because rape is fun, assuming you have no sense of morality (or have had it suspended by being forced to take part in a brutal and sensless war). Rape is just sex without consent - if the lack of consent doesn't bother you i can only presume raping someone is enjoyable.

    The reason why soldiers might be encouraged to rape, butcher and maybe even canabilise their enemies, is to create terror. It's just psychological warfare. The soldier on the ground may be doing it because it's fun; the commanders allow it because it's a useful weapon of war.

    I don't think you can say that canabilism underlies normal human lust. Extreme examples like Armin Meiwes and similar don't suggest to me everyone else has these as secret desires somehow.

    I suspect it is down to sadism and power when the individual enjoys this kind of thing and down to psychology and terror when armies are encouraged to perform such acts. I don't think you need to infer that all sexual lust has an element of this darkness to it.
    The human psyche goes through a lot on the battlefield; the tension will find release points
     

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    you have to consider culture in this as well. there are groups in africa that still practice witchcraft, who believe that children can be magical beings who must be controlled, who think having sex with virgins can cure you of AIDS. in such a culture i can very easily see things like this occurring when in the middle of the bloodlust.

    never underestimate the actions of a person who believes these things is capable of.
     

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    EDIT: So what right do we have to condemn these atrocities if we must admit that we -- or our little brothers, or our fathers -- would very likely have behaved the same way in these mens' situation? Yet how can we ask anyone to forgive them, and how could we forgive ourselves? And if situations of extreme differences in power dynamics are part of the natural historical environment, in some way aren't we as human beings born as monstrosities?
    I wouldn't do the same thing in these mens situation. I wouldn't join the military. If i was forcibly recruited i wouldn't be enthusiastic about killing people; i'd probably end up being shot for disobeying orders.

    If i had been raised in the kind of culture and situation that these men are then i probably would do the same, but then i wouldn't be me i'd be someone else.
     

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    ^I don't think we can know what we'd do. Lynndie England, the infamous leash holder at Abu Ghraib was known in her hometown as a empathetic sweetheart. The first whistle blower at the prison was known as bully and arrogant jackass, yet he was the morally stronger person.

    The Stanford Prison experiment demonstrated that top-flight undergraduates can be made into merciless torturers in a matter of days simply by giving them simulated power. Psychological weakness and willingness to conform in groups and obey authority figures is, in my opinion, extremely dangerous and a marker of a people who can easily be turned bad.

    What's to be done? I don't really know for sure, but in an attempt to help ensure that I am not capable of doing these things I do things like trip and consider them, or watch sadistic films on psychedelics to increase the intensity of disturbed feelings. I search my psyche for frissons of pleasure while I think and watch and feel. Compulsions work unconsciously and tacitly. It is only through uncovering and exploring sadism in ourselves by magnifying it's influence in safe situations that we can learn to recognize it and control it when the consequences are more dire. Any other ideas?
     

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    #13
    rape, murder, and cannibalism are all attempts to transcend humanity. by committing these extremely egregious acts, one is trying to overcome the insignificance of human life and elevate themselves to the level of a god by destroying every notion of what being a human being is.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Changed View Post
    rape, murder, and cannibalism are all attempts to transcend humanity. by committing these extremely egregious acts, one is trying to overcome the insignificance of human life and elevate themselves to the level of a god by destroying every notion of what being a human being is.
    or, rape is power tripping, murder has various causes often economic or emotional, and cannibalism of course it depends on the context/society/type

    only in some (probably) schizophrenic individuals would i bet they're killing to transcend humanity. maybe they watched too much highlander in the psyche ward :P
     

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    My question is how does cannibalism and power lust figure into the sexual spectrum, if at all?
    Rarely would be my guess - however when that rarity becomes a powerful cultural influence you get a more widespread practice.
    I think a good analogy on a similar level is the Holocaust and how people slaughtered others knowingly in vile ways
    Yes just like this
     

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    ^The reason I’m wondering if and how cannibalism figures into the sexual spectrum is that, symbolically, it seems like cannibalism is the logical conclusion to evermore extreme sadistic compulsions. If the allure of sadistic acts is to inflate a person’s ego by degrading and belittling another, then the next step is the destruction of that other person, and beyond their destruction, their incorporation into the sadist. Rather than make one’s sense of self larger and more powerful by making another's sense of self smaller, by cannibalizing one literally shrinks another’s physical essence and takes it into themselves. Certainly there is a pre-existing cultural practice in parts of Africa that affirms one can take another’s power by consuming them, but these reports from Congo repeatedly tie sexual torture to the practice. For example, there is no traditional cultural justification for forcing family members to rape and eat the flesh of each other. The sadistic appeal of doing so is to force those who love each other to commit the ultimate act of destruction against their will. In early America in the south, there was one case where a lynch mob forced a black man to eat parts of himself. They then skinned him alive, removing his surface identity, then burned him to death, completely destroying what remained of his physical self. There was no cultural practice of cannibalism in the American South so far as I know.

    There is another symbolic level that it makes some sense to me on as well. That is, it makes some kind of intuitive sense that the ultimate sexually creative act, insemination and conception, should be driven by, at its most polar extreme, the ultimate act of destruction, cannibalism. [EDIT: Why should mere symbolism be a rationale for these conclusions? I think it's because sexual compulsions are largely subconscious, and we know from our personal experience that the subconscious utilizes symbolic grammars in dreams, hynogogic and psychedelic visions. So it shouldn't be all that surprising if there is a kind of symbolic concept network organized by our intuitive understanding of opposites underlying our sexual compulsions.]

    I think we’re all familiar with thoughts of wanting to be inside another person during lust, and wanting them to be in us. When tongue kissing we put ourselves inside each other, and obviously do the same during sex. The urge to ingest various body fluids is a common compulsion during feelings of lust. For most of us, sadistic and masochistic urges are relatively balanced. We want these things for and from the other, and love fills us with desires of mutual reciprocity and respect.

    However, for the sadist it is more one-sided and intricately bound to the desire to have dominion over the other. I believe the events in Congo that I’ve posted about are examples that strongly imply that there are deep ties between power, sex, and violence, and that sadistic sexual compulsions emerge when there are extreme power imbalances. Even in the Stanford Prison experiment, after just a few days of simulated power imbalance the college students forced their peers into acts of SEXUAL humiliation and degradation. Just like in Abu Ghraib, they put hoods over their fellow student’s heads, thereby obscuring their identities, and physically tormented them, made them disrobe and forced them into homosexual poses. (This is a stretch, but think of why ejaculating on a woman’s face is so prevalent in porn. Is it because the essence of a man, semen, is obscuring the identity of a submissive woman, thereby degrading her – and men find that to be a turn on?)

    In both historical cases very specific sexually sadistic behaviors emerged independently and decades apart. Sexual sadism is an innate human tendency that naturally emerges from the possession of power by one group unified against another, and cannibalism is the ultimate sadistic act. That’s why I’m wondering about how it may figure into the sexual spectrum, as there is no doubt power relations play a large role in lust.
    Last edited by psood0nym; 20-05-2010 at 18:35.
     

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    Further more, genetic evidence reveals that those who have traced their lineage and believe they are of an extended "pure line" typically are found to have highly intermixed genes, as though the disparate groups that make up their ancestry were constantly interbreeding. Coupled with archeological evidence that indicates much of human prehistory involved constantly warring tribes, this suggests that the norm for human evolutionary history was frequent murder of men, likely breeding through rape with a society's conquered women, and sexual slavery.

    The second most successful primate on the planet after human beings is the rhesus macaque. Macaque society is marked by torment of the weak and non-conforming (the ostracized are kept on the periphery of the territory as fodder for predators), sexual favors by females in exchange for positions of social power, and sexual assault. In captivity, where all resources are provided for the macaques, their cruel social treatment continues despite every need being met.* "Machiavellian intelligence," it seams, is highly advantageous in primitive societies, and the desire for power is not stopped by achieving what is necessary to survive happily. Chimpanzees, as well, often hunt and eat their own kind to gain territorial power even when resources are plentiful -- sound like any other primates we know? I think we have a deep instinct to kill that which we identify as different from us, and that it shouldn't be surprising if we evolved sadism though our preexisting sexual desires in order to fill us with an evolutionarily advantageous desire.

    *See "Machiavellian intelligence: social expertise and the evolution of intellect in monkeys, apes, and humans" for exposition.
     

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    #18
    I heard a soldier (killer) say killing is more fun than sex.

    I've noticed that ppl's personalities change when they kill someone . . . .

    Dr. Kevorkian seemed to get some kind of spiritual energy from killing ppl (assisting in their suicides).
     

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    Bluelighter MrM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoddessLSD-XTC View Post
    Dr. Kevorkian seemed to get some kind of spiritual energy from killing ppl (assisting in their suicides).
    I had to look up Dr Kevorkian after reading that. You describe his as some kind of vampire character but he's is just a doctor in favour of euthanasia who helped some people die and went to court a few times.

    I very much doubt he was getting 'spiritual' energy from killing people. More likely he's a campaigner doing something legally dodgy that he seriously believes in and thus appears animated and lively whenever filmed doing what he believes in.

    I would be interested to know just exactly why you think this chap is getting spiritual energy by killing people. Also what is spiritual energy and is it like what i've seen on dragon ball Z?
     

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    #20
    ^^^ The spiritual energy is like what the killerz I've talked to have said, "killing is more fun than sex."

    Just did a google search of "killing people more fun than sex" and found out that the Zodiac killer said that too. See also:

    Xenia Onnatop in 'GoldenEye' (1995)

    Played by Famke Janssen

    This vampish, leather-clad, cigar-smoking ex-Soviet fighter pilot is the craziest - and deadliest - kook Bond ever has to deal with.

    When she strafes a hi-tech control room with machine-gun fire, killing dozens, her glee is orgasmic.

    She's lethal between the sheets, too, crushing to death a hapless admiral with her super-strong thighs.

    When Bond finally samples her feline charms, she bites him: a fight's more fun than sex in her book.

     

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    ^I'm not sure how much someone saying that killing or feeling that killing is more fun than sex means in the context of this thread, which is about the connections between sexual urges, sadism, sexual murder, and cannibalism. Sure, that could mean they get sadistic pleasure from killing, but unless it's sexualized murder involving cannibalism or cannibalism-like acts I think it's a largely independent topic.

    Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on my previous two posts? I'm especially interested in whether you think it makes sense to think of cannibalism as the ultimate expression of sadism, and how to make sense of the rapid emergence of sexual sadism in the Staford Prison Experiment and at Abu Ghraib.


    EDIT: From wiki, in regards to widespread sadistic cannibalism committed by Japanese soldiers during WWII. It's argued that they did it for sustenance, but clearly they did not need to do it the way described below. I suppose this could be regarded as weak evidence of sadism's ties with cannibalism, but not sexual cannibalism, nor does it rule out the possibility that those committing these particular tortures just happened to be sadists among those that needed to cannibalize due to hunger, and whose sadistic and cannibalistic urges were independent of one another.
    The Australian War Crimes Section of the Tokyo tribunal, led by prosecutor William Webb (the future Judge-in-Chief), collected numerous written reports and testimonies that documented Japanese soldiers' acts of cannibalism among their own troops, on enemy dead, and on Allied prisoners of war in many parts of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.[notes 1][83]:80 According to historian Yuki Tanaka, "cannibalism was often a systematic activity conducted by whole squads and under the command of officers".[84]

    In some cases, flesh was cut from living people. An Indian POW, Lance Naik Hatam Ali (later a citizen of Pakistan), testified that in New Guinea: "the Japanese started selecting prisoners and every day one prisoner was taken out and killed and eaten by the soldiers. I personally saw this happen and about 100 prisoners were eaten at this place by the Japanese. The remainder of us were taken to another spot 50 miles [80 km] away where 10 prisoners died of sickness. At this place, the Japanese again started selecting prisoners to eat. Those selected were taken to a hut where their flesh was cut from their bodies while they were alive and they were thrown into a ditch where they later died."[85]
    Last edited by psood0nym; 25-05-2010 at 07:29.
     

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    ^and people say we aint progressin'
     

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    ^Can you elaborate on what you mean by that (I presume, joke)?
     

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    some people think people are getting better and better over time (progressivism)

    some people think people are as people are (human nature) (eg cyclical history)
     

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    #25
    Are you talking about what happened in Germany in 2001 where that guy put a personal ad online looking for someone to cannabalize and then he actually did that to the guy who answered it?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes
     

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