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Thread: The Big & Dandy Non-LSD Ergoloids Blotter Thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by SKL View Post
    I doubt 20 mcg of atropine would do much.
    I am pretty sure that quote I quoted was ment to say 200 micrograms of scopolamine or atropine. And not 20.

    Hyoscyamine could be added aswell, it´s more stimulating.
    While scopolamine is more sedating.

    Datura´s alkaloids ARE known to strongly potentiate serotonergic psychedelics at those doses. Hence the why shaman´s sometimes add it to ayahuasca (another obvious reason is that it combats nausea)

    it´s quite plausible that it has been done, while certainly not being common.
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    Bluelighter PROZ4C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freescale View Post
    I know I've had the real deal, liquid cooked up in a special yearly batch by some crazy chemist that had the electric taste & full-on effects profile & duration. But I suspect most of the blotter I've had over the years was one of the analogues. It explains that what seemed almost like two different drugs actually was two closely related but different drugs. This totally makes sense.
    this^

    I am 99% convinced half the "LSD" out there and that I have done is some very very very similar analogue

    whatever it is though, if true is still a very good drug just slightly different and not in terms of being stronger or weaker usually duration and some slight variance in minor effects

    but by the nature of LSD its impossible to know for sure with out testing it could all be in my head or set / setting related but it sure seems to be the case
    Last edited by PROZ4C; 14-03-2011 at 08:20.
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    My 2 cents, diethylamine is widely available. If a chemist can get the difficult precursors chances are they can procure the diethylamine with ease. If other analogues are showing up my guess is chemists are bored and figured they'd play around a bit.
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    Greenlighter
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    kong you mean diethylamide, not diethylamine. The latter's the precursor.
    Anyway, after not being around the scene for something like six years, i can definitely say now for sure that it's the same drug as it was back in the late 90s. Before that, I can't tell you, because my experience doesn't go back that far. But recent experience tells me that it still feels a lot like the shit they were calling LSD back then. Excellent, super 'clean' for whatever that's worth! Well worth the admission price!
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    Greenlighter sit's Avatar
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    Same here - my experience going back to the early 90s, including a fair amount of experience with some legendary microdots, which old-handers back THEN told me were comparable to 'Operation Julie' dots of the 70s, suggests that there is no significant difference between 'acid' now and decades ago.
    This question comes up again and again on this forum and on others - and there is some very exhaustive investigation of the issue on Erowid - and ultimately all of the concrete scientific evidence, and all of the best-informed subjective evidence, tends to the view that there is no real difference between 2011 street acid and the stuff that got Hoffman high on bicycle day. I'm not saying I know better than anyone else that this is definitely true - but I do know that only the most subjective arguments in favour of the idea that 'acid' isn't acid retain any weight, because there is no objective evidence for it.

    This is basically just more speculation on my part, but one issue that I think often leads people to think they are having 'some other drug' is dosage - acid is a drug that takes on qualitatively very different effects at different dosage thresholds (we all know this, don't we? A 200ug trip is not just like a 50ug trip but stronger...), and different people will experience these thresholds in quite different ways. So it's not only set and setting which will make a difference to the experience, but precise dosage. In practice this means that if you're used to dealing with blotters that hold, say, 50ug, but then you get a batch that are all does at, say, 80 ug, then it can be quite tricky to figure out how to replicate the dose that you are used to, and you can feel that you're experiencing some 'slightly different' drug.
    I do have some very rough evidence for this just on the basis of my own observations over the years, but absolutely nothing that would be really definitive or accurate.
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    Bluelighter DwayneHoover's Avatar
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    ^ Dude read the post that started this thread. What that was tested and found to NOT be LSD but a close cousin was VERY widely distributed and heavily promoted as "real LSD" but it was in fact NOT. So there goes your theory.

    Just the tip of the iceberg. Dont you think chemistry makes progress in 50 years? What reason is there to religiously believe that there must be one and only one psychedelic molecule that is similar to LSD? THAT viewpoint is what seems illogical and sentimental if you ask me.
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    I thought those test results were described as "inconclusive"? Not that inconclusive is a great thing either way, obviously... but hardly conclusive evidence of anything really. As far as people like Sit (and most others really) saying that subjectively they've noticed no difference, are they mistaken (tis only their subjective feelings, of course) or is this supposed LS? so similar to LSD itself that nobody much can tell them apart? If the latter then unless it's something toxic and generally dodgy that's obviously not good, but if it's as safe as LSD I almost don't see a problem (misrepresentation being the problem there would be however good the "replacement"). Maybe every PDer should donate one tab from their next batch for testing - if there really is any widespread LS? then surely it will show up on at least a few tests, no?
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    Bluelight Crew Solipsis's Avatar
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    Not sure if this has been posted, but Wizard blotter being branded as 'LSD' will possibly fall into some peoples hands if they are careless where they look. This is in fact Bromo-DragonFLY, interesting psychedelic when it's known what it is but otherwise could lead to accidental overdose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solipsis View Post
    Big & Dandified
    since a great deal of what's talked about here is no longer Ergoloid related maybe we should just have this as the non-LSD blotter thread?
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    Bluelighter amanitadine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DwayneHoover View Post
    ^ Dude read the post that started this thread. What that was tested and found to NOT be LSD but a close cousin was VERY widely distributed and heavily promoted as "real LSD" but it was in fact NOT. So there goes your theory.

    Just the tip of the iceberg. Dont you think chemistry makes progress in 50 years? What reason is there to religiously believe that there must be one and only one psychedelic molecule that is similar to LSD? THAT viewpoint is what seems illogical and sentimental if you ask me.
    We've proven we can run in circles here, but the analtyical results that started this thread are inconclusive, maybe not even an ergoloid, and are as far I know are the only example of "non-LSD LSD" amongst the thousands and thousands that are analyzed as indeed being LSD. And I don't think it is to "religiously believe". In fact it quite the opposite. It is looking at the available facts, not some "feeling" that this LSD is weird. This point has been made repeatedly in this thread by many people, and as it stands I have to agree, until some actual statistically significant quantifiable evidence shows up. If there is all these other ergoloids outh there, how do none of em ever show up in the gazzilions of samples anazlyzed? (except for one time, apparently). Is it some sort of conspiracy?

    Cheers
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    Bluelighter DwayneHoover's Avatar
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    ^"gazzilions" of samples analyzed? Where you getting that number, bud? By what methodologies? What were the controls? Where are the peer-reviewed scientific research publications? I think you are making quite a big assumption about all these countless samples that have been 100% conclusively analyzed. Sounds like urban legend to me. I would guess perhaps a few thousand samples analyzed out of millions of distributed hits. So that's a totally scattershot random input sample, subject to many biases, result of unscientific unreviewed unscientifically valid "results" that doesnt really let you draw any proper statistical conclusions. I bet the "unknown" ones you just never hear about, because, well, there's nothing to report.


    Most of the time law enforcement and even "drug ID services" are looking for a short list of "known drugs of abuse". If a field test using reagents tests positive for LSD they say it is LSD, even though somewhere in this thread it is reported that in fact the reagent commonly used for quick LSD field tests CROSS-REACTS with ALL ergoloids. So alot of those may in fact have been non-lsd.

    Also, my guess is that if a GC/MS is done and it comes back CLOSE to LSD's peak then many groups will just say "Oh well it must be LSD then" and report is as such. They will NOT spend alot of time doing investigative work to figure out what that slightly off not-quite-right-but-close peak really is... knowing human nature they will make the easiest possible presumption and make an announcement that puts feathers in their cap that it was that evil evil LSD.
    Last edited by DwayneHoover; 21-03-2011 at 03:09.
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    So why is the one ("inconclusive") GC/MS test result definitely accurate and every single other one ever seen not accurate then? As mentioned many times already - proper drug ID services give you the complete details of what is on your tab right down to the mcg dosage. Just cos you don't seem to have easy access to such services in the US doesn't mean that applies elsewhere in the world. Why just that one test that doesn't definitely say anything one way or the other? It's definitely in LE interests to kick up a fuss if a previously unknown drug is circulating on blotter. It would be big news if such a thing was widespread. Front page "New Killer Drug Raped My Hamster" stuff. Why would they cover it up? Occam's Razor and all that...
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    Bluelight Crew Solipsis's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity: how much fuss is actually kicked up by DOX and DOB-dragonfly in the past?

    Wouldn't there have to be an incident for it to become big in the media?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKL View Post
    since a great deal of what's talked about here is no longer Ergoloid related maybe we should just have this as the non-LSD blotter thread?
    i was about to say the same thing.

    may go through it later to remove the specific ergoloid stuff
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    ^ thatwould be good
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    Greenlighter sit's Avatar
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    Apologies - I responded to a specific comment from averagetool in terms whose scope did go way beyond that of the original theme of the thread. I can see that my comments were provocative in terms of the initial topic, because there's really nothing in my experience to disprove the existence of non-LSD ergoloid blotters; if they do exist, then people like myself (and Shambles - sounds like we're coming from very similar experience-sets, Shambles ) are clearly not the intended market for them. But hopefully people can appreciate that our scepticism over that issue derives from years of contending with idiotic and demonstrably inaccurate urban myths, as well as the weird history of American snobbery about European acid, even if they believe that this isn't an example of all that (which maybe it isn't, for sure).
    I'm new to the site but not to the thread- it was reading this fascinating thread in detail which actually prompted me to join. But from a new-members perspective, it seems that there would be a lot of value in separating the specific discussion of ergoloids and the reliability or otherwise of the gc /ms tests ( and of those available to Dutch users) from the discussions of experiential variability in general, if only to prevent idiots like me from muddying the waters....
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    edit
    Last edited by sockpuppet; 19-08-2012 at 18:24.
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    no worries. as of the moment, based on the available evidence, it seems that the vast majority of blotters sold as LSD are indeed such. The small, but notable, presence of other things on blotter has been & will probably always be a source of contention. Especially if the non-LSD ergoloids start to see wider distribution. Unfortunately this will be hard to test for as i don't think reagents work so well with blotter, not to mention the amount of any drug on standard sized blotters is going to be minuscule.

    Every so often some DOx or FLY type substance is going to be sold as LSD, but that seems fairly infrequent these days. Out of the countless times i've bought LSD, i've only gotten a DOx once. This usually only happens in your more backwater markets though. Hopefully the incidence of it won't increase
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    Bluelighter DwayneHoover's Avatar
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    I have a few times, perhaps 5% of acid trips, gotten something that was VERY dysphoric and created primarily icky body load and little or no psychedelic effects. No way of knowing what it was of course. Definitely was NOT lsd, please believe me. But that means 95% were LSD, albeit assininely weak in some cases... damned profiteering blotter-layers... put JUST BARELY enough on so that people cannot claim you are ripping them off... assholes.

    But the "bunk" IS out there, whatever it is, not just blank, but SOMETHING that feels horrible and gross. SO that's why I argue so vociferously when people claim that ALL ACID IS REAL PURE LSD... that's just a ridiculous thing to claim, and I am tired of arguing about it so dont even bother.

    I do have a friend who SWEARS to high heaven that all acid no matter the form he has done since oh about 1975 has been crap and was either so weak as to be pointless without spending a huge amount on one trip, or had some kind of impurity that made him feel "ick" and physically sick. I have personally given him some I was sure was real LSD, just a bit mild, for going to see a movie, and at one point laying down listening to music afterwards, he said "that was pretty intense"... but by the next day he was swearing it was crap again. I think there is some sort of sentimentalism for his youth at play...or perhaps his numerous other physical issues (Hep C, Rheumatoid Arthritis, other issues, including now-kicked narcotics addiction, due to pain issues... oh and inability to sleep more than a few hours a night... oh and also a really bad prostatitis syndrome... yea he's kinda a wreck, so that probably has more to do with his hate of ALL acid he's done since 1975 that anything in or not in the drug itself.... poor guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solipsis View Post
    Just out of curiosity: how much fuss is actually kicked up by DOX and DOB-dragonfly in the past?
    None that I know of as it's such a vanishingly rare occurrence (at least in the UK where I'd be more likely to hear media reports on it - you seen our tabloid press ). Was meaning more that it would be big news if this was a widespread and seemingly worldwide phenomenon as some are suggesting. Almost every other drugs is surrounded by warnings that you can never be sure what you get when you buy it. Never seen that argument being put forward for acid and can only presume that's because there's really no evidence to support that being the case. Or very little evidence anyway.

    Dwayne: I don't think anyone is saying that everything sold as acid is definitely acid. Don't think anybody has ever said anything like that. It's the size of the problem that's in dispute - specifically in relation to LS? which is said to very closely resemble the effects of the real thing not to be bunk or toxic-feeling. Other random crap on blotter (DOx, BRDFLY and so on) is a well-known reality but not a very widespread one outside of a few areas. Something that closely mimics the effects of LSD that isn't LSD is a new thing and presumably far harder to pin down without proper testing carried out over time. So far there really isn't any hard evidence for it happening but some very knowledgeable and experienced users seem very sure that this is happening. My position is simply that I want to see evidence for it being the case and until I do I see it as an unconfirmed rumour that's worth keeping an eye on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DwayneHoover
    But the "bunk" IS out there, whatever it is, not just blank, but SOMETHING that feels horrible and gross.
    This is definitely not a description that applies to the n-alkylated lysergamides I describe, FYI, just to clarify.
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    Greenlighter sit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shambles View Post
    None that I know of as it's such a vanishingly rare occurrence (at least in the UK where I'd be more likely to hear media reports on it - you seen our tabloid press ). Was meaning more that it would be big news if this was a widespread and seemingly worldwide phenomenon as some are suggesting. Almost every other drugs is surrounded by warnings that you can never be sure what you get when you buy it. Never seen that argument being put forward for acid and can only presume that's because there's really no evidence to support that being the case. Or very little evidence anyway.

    Dwayne: I don't think anyone is saying that everything sold as acid is definitely acid. Don't think anybody has ever said anything like that. It's the size of the problem that's in dispute - specifically in relation to LS? which is said to very closely resemble the effects of the real thing not to be bunk or toxic-feeling. Other random crap on blotter (DOx, BRDFLY and so on) is a well-known reality but not a very widespread one outside of a few areas. Something that closely mimics the effects of LSD that isn't LSD is a new thing and presumably far harder to pin down without proper testing carried out over time. So far there really isn't any hard evidence for it happening but some very knowledgeable and experienced users seem very sure that this is happening. My position is simply that I want to see evidence for it being the case and until I do I see it as an unconfirmed rumour that's worth keeping an eye on.
    Precisely agree - on all counts.

    But is is more than an unconfirmed rumour, as SKL argues very persuasively throughout the thread that it is?

    Really sorry if I missed this in re-reading the whole thread, but were the doubts that were raised earlier in the thread about the valid interpretation of the gc /ms results that were referred to at the start of the thread ever resolved?
    Last edited by sit; 21-03-2011 at 20:44. Reason: further question to add
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    As far as I recall that GC/MS result remains "inconclusive" but maybe someone who knows better will update on that. Even if it is confirmed that's one result showing shenanigans and thousands not showing shenanigans which would suggest it's still a relatively rare phenomenon. It's the fact that SKL and others who raise the issue are such good sources of information that are not prone to making stuff up or indulging in conspiracy theories that makes it such an intriguing possibility. But in the absence of any definite evidence I have to remain sceptical as well as being open to the possibility.

    I'd love to see far more testing take place to see just what the score is in a wider sense cos if this LS? really is that hard to distinguish from the real thing it could easily slip under the radar without raising too many alarm bells. There's masses of different blotter doing the rounds in the UK at the moment and almost all is getting rave reviews but sure it wouldn't be too much trouble to get samples across the range tested. Especially as it seems to be EU acid that's in question, at least so far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shambles View Post
    As far as I recall that GC/MS result remains "inconclusive" but maybe someone who knows better will update on that. Even if it is confirmed that's one result showing shenanigans and thousands not showing shenanigans which would suggest it's still a relatively rare phenomenon. It's the fact that SKL and others who raise the issue are such good sources of information that are not prone to making stuff up or indulging in conspiracy theories that makes it such an intriguing possibility. But in the absence of any definite evidence I have to remain sceptical as well as being open to the possibility.

    I'd love to see far more testing take place to see just what the score is in a wider sense cos if this LS? really is that hard to distinguish from the real thing it could easily slip under the radar without raising too many alarm bells. There's masses of different blotter doing the rounds in the UK at the moment and almost all is getting rave reviews but sure it wouldn't be too much trouble to get samples across the range tested. Especially as it seems to be EU acid that's in question, at least so far.
    It would surely be a great service to all if people with access to the Dutch testing facilities would be prepared systematically to post results in a dedicated thread. I'm never clear if there is some impediment to them doing so that I'm not aware of...
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