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Thread: The Big & Dandy Non-LSD Ergoloids Blotter Thread

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    #51
    The idea of "different kinds of L" is popularly held by a lot of users and even dealers, who may be more correct than they know even if the specific terms they use ("crystal lines," "LSA," "ALD-52") may be b.s.
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    #52
    Quote Originally Posted by RainbowWarrior View Post
    LSD and triads?... lol

    watch less movies and spend more time in "reality"
    Try and think "sense of humour" when you read my posts. I'm not always being entirely serious. The point still stands that when you pay 10 million for LSD you are expecting LSD.
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    #53
    Quote Originally Posted by SomeKindaLove View Post
    Second, triads? LOL. But really, regardless of who the traffickers are, all that they really care about is that the product sells, and this product definitely sells.
    Perhaps the triads have a testing hippy they give it to?

    I'd be interested in why they'd be trying to "pass it off" as LSD tho. If I had something just like LSD that only lasted as long as mushrooms I wouldn't be trying to "pass it off" as something as cheap as LSD. Pretty much everyone I know would pay two or three times as much for it than they would for LSD. In fact you'd think it would take over the market pretty much overnight as the profits you'd make would be staggering.
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    #54
    Bluelighter amanitadine's Avatar
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    ^^^ Dunno bout that. Brand recognition plays a huge role, LSD has a market much bigger than psychedelic drug afficionados, and LSD means something to the layman, LSx does not.

    That said, I still think 99% of the ergoloids being sold as LSD are in fact, LSD.
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    #55
    Quote Originally Posted by SomeKindaLove View Post
    Who is proposing that?

    All that is known is that these non-LSD ergoloids circulate, and, presumably, there is an organized effort to produce and distribute them, but the rest of the above is indeed silly. There is plenty of real LSD circulating, but also there is at least one group of people putting this other stuff out. Anything else is paranoid speculation (which psychedelics are wont to produce in some people ...)
    So this whole thread is about the possibility that there could be non-LSD ergoloids on a small percentage of "LSD" blotters..

    Then yes.. there is a possibility. Is there something I'm not getting? Sorry i've just woken up
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    #56
    Bluelighter DwayneHoover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickolasnice View Post
    So this whole thread is about the possibility that there could be non-LSD ergoloids on a small percentage of "LSD" blotters..

    Then yes.. there is a possibility. Is there something I'm not getting? Sorry i've just woken up
    Well at least part of this thread is about at least one large blotter lay/print that there was apparently a whole lot of going around at one point with conclusively documented non-LSD ergoloids being blatantly misrepresented as LSD. Well maybe "conspiracy" is not such a bad word after all.

    And I can see it happening without anyone ending up on a meathook. Cook tells "Triad":

    You know, for X% less I can make you something very clean, so close no one will be sure its any different, end users will love, and will test positive on ergoloid test kits. What do you think?

    "Triad" says:

    Hmmm, that means we make X% more... the test hippies do so much in a fingerprint they cant tell their ass from a hole in the ground, no one we ever sold to has bothered with the time and expense of a gc/ms since it cut into their take, what the heck lets give it a shot and see if we can pull the wool over their eyes
    Last edited by DwayneHoover; 20-01-2011 at 11:31.
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    #57
    Bluelighter DwayneHoover's Avatar
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    Then again, I guess there's the argument that if the molecule can fulfill the requirements of the job listing, makes users happy and gives them a good clean trip, then what's the problem with giving it the job? Kinda like "Is it live or is it Memorex?" Does it really matter if the glass still breaks the right way?

    "Fascinating, Captain."

    http://www.impactlab.net/2009/05/11/...-day-mr-spock/
    Last edited by DwayneHoover; 20-01-2011 at 11:56.
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    #58
    Another cross-post from esotericPharma.org

    This is part of a rough draft of what will become a longer article about this subject with several authors contributing.


    There is a bit of incredulity when people hear all of this, which is understandable, partly because we all grew up hearing the same song and dance: nothing else fits on blotters, it's all just differences in set and setting, and partly because there have been so many instances where similar claims are made by people who do not really know what they are talking about as wild speculation without evidence, or simply as part of various LSD-related urban legends (which there are so many of ... because LSD's psychopharmacological action, essentially, is to touch the parts of our consciousness that scream "this is an incredibly significant experience!" Salience receptors, we could call them! And consequentially, mythopoesis is built into LSD's pharmacology ... but I digress) ... this here is none of the above. The existence of these n-alkyl lysergic acid amides other than LSD on blotter papers which saw significant commercial distribution is a documented fact backed up by years of subjective experiences of people who thought there was something "not quite right" about the LS"D" coming from certain sources ... some of this was questionable and more likely the result of set and setting or placebo effect, some of it was sour grapes from people with a financial interest in perpetuating these perceptions, some of it was patriotic sentimentality (American LSD is best!) ... and it turns out some of it was true. This is really happening, and has been for some years. Now we have documented proof and a pair of very likely candidates for the molecule in question, and, for those in the known able to read between the lines, a convincing argument for why all of this went down like it did.

    With regards to the latter -- some people might be inclined to moral outrage because in some sense a fraud was perpetrated here, but I am less inclined to moral outrage than I am to awe with the chemical and pharmacological genius behind this particular project. We can deconstruct the above GC/MS results and develop a theory as to why these particular compounds were chosen, and it is a very interesting "why." Someone clearly put a lot of time and effort into this, and likely not as a one-off experiment in the development of a novelty for novelty's sake (as in the case of a lot of the small-scale circulation of some of the more esoteric research chemicals.) Why put in all of this effort? The answer, of course, lies in the chemical processes involved. These compounds appeared in the literature without much fanfare and without any mention of being tested in man, but with some data as to their neuropharmacological profiles, which very closely resemble LSD, as do the responses of animals ... and, it turns out, the responses of trippers. The compounds in question fit two criteria: first, they are probably as close to the real thing as can be had, and second, answering the question of "why go to the trouble," they are able to be synthesized in a manner which deals with much less attention-drawing precursors, thus making life easier and safer for the chemists. In certain jurisdictions, the process might not actually be illegal at all.

    And, it turns out, these compounds might just make life easier and safer for trippers as well. Going on subjective data and on the available receptor binding data, it is possible that the "LS?" drugs are shorter acting, less anxiogenic, and possess less so-called "behavioral toxicity" and potential for untoward psychological outcomes, while still replicating to a large extent the LSD experience or, perhaps as we have to call it now, the "psychedelic ergoloid" experience. The opposite side of this coin, of course, is that those with particularly discriminating taste in drugs may find that "something is missing" taking the non-diethylamide n-alkylated LAA's. The "something" often being characterized as "depth" or "spirituality." (It is interesting that the loss of this is paired to the loss of some of the more unpleasant, anxiogenic/psychotomimetic aspects). I, too, would say that although consuming these drugs is no longer a part of my life, I, subjectively speaking, thought the experiences that I had with the diethylamide were superior to the "other" lysergamides that I have encountered. However, apart from a general feeling of very minor subjective differences in the overall Gestalt of the experience, the drugs are virtually identical and I repeat my doubts that most end-users would be able to tell the difference in a blind taste test.

    To recap: most of the customer base either does not care or, a case could be made, might very well prefer the more novel compounds. Those involved with production and distribution are less exposed to risk and probably increased profitability (although it is worth noting the product is slightly less potent per unit weight). The negative impact on anyone is minimal, so, while some people's initial response to this might be that it is scandalous and an occasion for moral outrage due to concerns about truth and advertising, the truth is that from a chemical, pharmacological, counterforensic, and economic perspective, somebody somewhere pulled a brilliant coup, and did so very quietly.

    Ethically speaking, of course, it's in a bit of a gray area. We all would love to be able to know exactly what we are getting in this market, but unfortunately due to the social, economic, political, and legal realities surrounding this particular market, it's not always possible. But, I submit, putting these compounds is not the same as putting something like DOB or 5-MeO-AMT on blotter, nor is it like selling piped out rolls, fentadope, levamisole-laced cocaine, or any of the other myriad scandals regarding misbranded drugs that have come out over the years. 4-AcO-DMT "mushroom chocolates" do sort of come to mind, though, as a rough analogy to what is going down here. Nonetheless, when the pieces of this puzzle became apparent to a number of people last year, it was my feeling that the information had ought to become public, as it gradually has, although some parts of us wondered whether this carefully kept secret had ought to be exposed. But the principle wins out that informed consumers should be able to know what they are putting into their bodies, if only for curiosity's sake (as I do not see any real safety concerns with this particular substitution, unlike, say, some of the stuff that shows up in, inter alia, "E" pills, heroin, cocaine, and ketamine).

    Regardless of what does or does not become public knowledge, however, I imagine that the production and circulation of these compounds will continue unabated and that they will have a certain market share going into the future. The vast majority of those consuming the compounds will neither know no care and, blissfully unaware, will continue to believe wholeheartedly that they are "tripping on LSD," and, for all intents and purposes, they essentially are ... well, at least, they are tripping on the L and the S, and a very close approximation of the "D" (and to be flippant about it, "B" and "P" even rhyme with "D!") We're talking about misrepresentation of drugs, but, to a degree, we're talking about a white lie. The white lie has been believed uncritically for a while, and those who thought differently were even looked at on occasion as foolish for believing that "something else" was circulated as LSD. Now we know different. The question is, what do we do with this knowledge? And, as is always worth asking, does it even matter? This stuff is out there. There is some indeterminable but significant likelihood that many of you have taken it, without even knowing. And, by most reports, the experience is not a bad one. These new ergoloids are actually pretty interesting and cool drugs, and pretty close, subjectively and pharmacologically, to the original.
    Last edited by SomeKindaLove; 20-01-2011 at 13:47.
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    #59
    Bluelighter DwayneHoover's Avatar
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    Great writing, very thoughtful. A little more research into how it all REALLY went down and I think you have an entire book here!
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    #60
    Quote Originally Posted by raggedy_acid View Post
    This is a re-post from another forum. This topic is on many peoples minds and there are those who wish to hide this information and attack anyone that speaks about this theory.


    I tried them and indeed they were strong, didnt notice the effects wearing off faster tahn usual. but since you guys were at a festival i presume you took acid more than 1time?


    Also at boom festival there is a tent where you can can test your drugs, and almost everything sold as lsd was ineed lsd.

    Tolerance is a bitch...
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    #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacemonkey5000 View Post
    Also at boom festival there is a tent where you can can test your drugs, and almost everything sold as lsd was ineed lsd.

    Tolerance is a bitch...
    Tested how?

    Likely with Ehrlich's reagent. If you had read this thread, or done any research at all on the subject, you would be aware that that does not differentiate other complex ergoloids.

    The only thing known that can differentiate these compounds is a GC/MS, and I doubt ther was a GC/MS tent at the festival
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    #62
    Quote Originally Posted by SomeKindaLove View Post
    Tested how?

    Likely with Ehrlich's reagent. If you had read this thread, or done any research at all on the subject, you would be aware that that does not differentiate other complex ergoloids.

    The only thing known that can differentiate these compounds is a GC/MS, and I doubt ther was a GC/MS tent at the festival


    Here´s a link to erowid about it.



    http://aciddata.com/psychoactives/te...article1.shtml
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    #63
    Well, I stand corrected then. They used TLC. Very interesting. Apologies for taking a dismissive tone about Ehrlich's, you know what they say about assumptions hehe ... Now, whether TLC would be specific enough to differentiate between the compounds in question, I honestly do not know, perhaps someone more chemically astute than I can speculate on that.

    In any event as I've stated I believe that most of the "LSD" on the market is genuine LSD, but some significant minority is definitely not... There is proof positive of that, supra. I wonder if any of this showed up at that festival test site at all... Geographically i would guess yes, but who really knows...
    Last edited by SomeKindaLove; 20-01-2011 at 15:51.
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    #64
    Maybe we should go ask the guys in ADD if there precursors to these drugs are cheaper / easier to obtain and if the process is easier / cheaper.
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    #65
    They are. This thread might stimulate some interesting discussion over at ADD though... Mods? (maybe one of you guys could change the title too? Lol it's bothering me)
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    #66
    Quote Originally Posted by SomeKindaLove View Post
    Well, I stand corrected then. They used TLC. Very interesting. Apologies for taking a dismissive tone about Ehrlich's, you know what they say about assumptions hehe ... Now, whether TLC would be specific enough to differentiate between the compounds in question, I honestly do not know, perhaps someone more chemically astute than I can speculate on that.

    In any event as I've stated I believe that most of the "LSD" on the market is genuine LSD, but some significant minority is definitely not... There is proof positive of that, supra. I wonder if any of this showed up at that festival test site at all... Geographically i would guess yes, but who really knows...

    Since most of the acid at festivals like this usually are from a few of the same batches i doubt there was any huge numbers of fake acid here,

    How do i know this? well a week at that place and the 100 or so people who tried to sell me acid had 1 of three different blotters or dots.
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    #67
    ^very good point. This is also the case in festivals around here; dunno why I didn't think of it... The market at one festival ia unlikely to be representative of the market as a whole...
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    #68
    The last time i heard about fake acid in my country was some Ohm blotters with DOX,

    This was about 3years ago, before that there was some bromo dragonfly blotters that actually killed a few guys

    So 2 batches in 10 years is what i can confirm in sweden, although the bromo one was preety big and were sold at raves for almost a year.
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    #69
    Bluelighter Katapult's Avatar
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    Just something I heard about the bitter taste. I heard that blotters are treated with something bitter just for the reason to make them taste of something... Basically to suggest to badly informed users or noobs who don't know anything about what they are taking that they are actually taking something.

    I don't have any proof or sources for that, I just heard it from someone who (in my point of view) has more experience with it... Not in taking - but he used to make money with it.
    What do you think?
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    #70
    See, the thing about these "fake blotters" is most people wouldn't ever know ... If you got a DOx or, even worse, a d-fly, you'd definitely know (eep!) so in that sense, its an improvement ...
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    #71
    Quote Originally Posted by DwayneHoover View Post
    And I can see it happening without anyone ending up on a meathook. Cook tells "Triad":

    You know, for X% less I can make you something very clean, so close no one will be sure its any different, end users will love, and will test positive on ergoloid test kits. What do you think?
    Well according to the first poster on this thread you'd have to add "And it ends after 4 hours". Which means anyone with even the foggiest notion of what LSD is would know it wasn't LSD in a million years.

    So our friends in the Yakuza would either say

    1) Ok, I give you tenth price of what I give you for LSD.

    or

    2) Ok, Lets sell it as "the LSD that lasts as long as mushrooms" and sell it for 3 times the price of LSD.

    I just worry that we're starting another urban myth. For the last 45 years whenever anyone has had a "dirty" trip or "It didn't feel like LSD" it's been down to the strychnine. 10 years ago I used to tell people there was no strychnine in LSD and they'd go "Don't be fucking stupid dude, I know the difference between strychnine and LSD".

    Now it's not going to be strychnine, it's going to be "non-LSD ergoloids". I just urge caution before we instantly assume that every teenager who isn't satisfied with his LSD trip can state without fear of contradiction that "It must've been a different LSD".
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    #72
    Quote Originally Posted by SomeKindaLove View Post
    See, the thing about these "fake blotters" is most people wouldn't ever know ... If you got a DOx or, even worse, a d-fly, you'd definitely know (eep!) so in that sense, its an improvement ...
    How many of the fake blotters give trips just like LSD and how many of them end after 4 hours SKL? Is it easier to make the ones where the trip ends after 4 hours than the ones that are like LSD?

    The trouble I'm having believeing it is I've taken LSD one weekend when the weather's been cloudy and I've been working hard all week and got nothing but a headache and hardly any psychedelic effects at all. Then I've taken the same stuff the week after when it's been sunny and I've been a different mindset and had the most psychedelic experience of my life. If that hadn't happened to me countless times I'd be saying "I've had non-LSD ergoloids too".
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    #73
    None of the compounds I mention has a four hour duration. slightly shorter than L, but more in the LSD range. They are not (much) easier to make, but can be made attracting less attention ... But I've said all of that before in this thread. I'm not saying I agree with everything the OP said, I'm presenting something else all together that has come to light in the past year that is still just starting to become known in the community ...

    That is, most significantly, I have provided a GC/MS which proves that these things exist and have circulated, so I am having trouble seeing why people have trouble accepting that...
    Last edited by SomeKindaLove; 21-01-2011 at 11:00.
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    #74
    Bluelighter RainbowWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeKindaLove View Post
    Well, I stand corrected then. They used TLC. Very interesting. Apologies for taking a dismissive tone about Ehrlich's, you know what they say about assumptions hehe ... Now, whether TLC would be specific enough to differentiate between the compounds in question, I honestly do not know, perhaps someone more chemically astute than I can speculate on that.

    In any event as I've stated I believe that most of the "LSD" on the market is genuine LSD, but some significant minority is definitely not... There is proof positive of that, supra. I wonder if any of this showed up at that festival test site at all... Geographically i would guess yes, but who really knows...

    The folks that do the tests at Boom are from energy control, which i mentioned before... they do TLC at festivals etc, but they have a lab and do GC on any sample that is somewhat suspicious and like i said they have not reported any lsd analogues on blotter yet, (to the best of my knowledge... didn't manage to write them an email yet as i'll have to write in spanish and it'll take a minute of spare time and concentration to do so...)

    but they not only offer their services at festivals but come to most spanish cities once a month, it's a really great institution and even is supported by the state...

    f.e. i know the last mdma chrystal i had was really pure mdma with 82% and the remaining 18% were unreacted precursors, thanks to energy control... i really hope the rest of europe (world) picks up on this strategy of harm-prevention...

    and apart from that, like i said, in the Netherlandfs it is also possible to get your lsd tested and they even tell you the mcg of a hit, and i have never heard of something other than lsd found there on blotter as well, only bunk or weak hits...

    so it can't be that widespread! though i'd really like to taste such an analogue knowingly, sounds good as well!

    But i feel Ismene, we should be careful not to start a new urban myth... these rumours spread far and wide, especially with something elusive as lsd...
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    #75
    I have no real idea what sort of market share this stuff has, probably not that huge ... But it definitely went around in decent quantity for a while there starting a few years ago ad probably still does. Id guess it's only one group of people making it but that's pure speculation and as we know one group of people can put out a lot of L.

    But no urban myth here. This stuff is real. The "LSD conspiracy" of th OP is just some craziness someone came up with on acid ...albeit starting, as much craziness does, with a grain of reality. A lot of people come up with various explanations of why the L of today isn't what it used to be, see the famous article who's author escapes me at the moment about L in the 60s vs today ... Also a bunchpf b.s., rooted in changes in the user, not in the drug.

    ... None of which has anything to do with the compounds I am talking about. Different, and far more interesting,phenomenon.
    Last edited by SomeKindaLove; 21-01-2011 at 11:13.
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