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Thread: Depression meds (SSRI/SNRI) vs Opiods / Do u wish you were born 100 years ago?

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    Depression meds (SSRI/SNRI) vs Opiods / Do u wish you were born 100 years ago? 
    #1
    Mods feel free to move this about to an appropriate forum.

    I have tried almost all SSRI's and SNRI's along with therapy ect...

    My depression is of the constant relentless variety that leaves me unmotivated to much at all apart from the essentials.

    My mother I believe suffered from much the same condition although her treatment was good old fashioned booze.

    100 years ago before the Harrision Taxation act took place in the states pretty much all forms of strong opiods and amphetimines were available as tonics ect..

    In the 50's opiods and amphetimines were used as treatment for depression.

    I myself and many others I know have tried all the avenues with modern antidepressants mostly to no effect which brings me back to the living 100 years or so ago scenario.

    I've found that opiods, really are the best antidepressant there is. Addictive yes. But when you compare the widthdrawal profile against meds such as side effexor and othersand lets not forget Benzo's I really think I would trade my ipod and big screen TV to live in a period where these treatments were standard.

    Beggining to rant but Australia is really becoming a hidious nanny state and I just wish, as a 30 year old adult I should have the right to choose opiods over the standard mostly useless modern meds.

    If you know the risks and are prepared to make an informed decision to be (addicted) or use opiods as depression treatment for ever, then you should be able to make that choice.

    I'd trade most of my mod cons for that.

    Would you?
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    #2
    Bluelighter
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    If you really want to make a decent statement - perhaps thinking before you write an article of that nature should be advised, then some spell checking and basic grammar to help get the point across.

    The point you're making whilst clear and solid - would be looked at classically as drug seeking behavior. Most people beginning to feel addiction will draw up conclusions like this to justify their use - i know i did.

    I wouldn't trade fuck all to not feel 'depressed' which in your case seems to just be a lack of drug intake (be it that you can't score, don't want to, or can't afford it).
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    #3
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    I agree, Hunter1. The choice (to use a substance or enter addiction/habitual use with that substance) should be yours to make without fear of getting caught up in the legal system. You make the choice, and you take responsibility for it.

    I also empathise with your statement that opiates/opioids are the best antidepressant for you. Me also. I made a post recently in which I described substance use (in general) as a release valve. Sometimes the pressure builds, reaches a critical point and must be expressed in some way. I would rather medicate myself than lash out or do something destructive that I will regret later. I've used various substances over the years when the pressure (of what? I don't know) builds up, and the most productive one for me has been opiates. It slows me down, allows me to reflect, and at least temporarily, presses the reset button in my mind.

    More medicinal than recreational, in my experience. I don't want 'high times' as much as I want relief. Why should that be persecuted?

    Good luck to you, Hunter1.
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    #4
    Hmm interesting point but a few things to think about...

    - What about if you get chronic pain and have developed such a tolerance from daily opioid use that they're essentially useless (as mentioned in another thread)?
    - What about non-pharmacologic measures - have you tried those? I (and many others on this board and IRL) have found counselling/CBT/lifestyle changes/etc to be very effective. Drugs aren't always the answer
    - Obviously far from perfect, but many people find modern antidepressants beneficial (not saying you should, but they're hardly "mostly useless" in general terms)
    - For how long and at what dose have you used opioids as an antidepressant? Are you still fully functional at that level (i.e. enough to work/drive) and would you be able to stay at the same dose without developing tolerance and without using your stash recreationally?

    To answer your question though, no I wouldn't - in the 50s I wouldn't have been able to get acid or mdma

    I do agree with you regarding the liberty to use though. I strongly believe we should all have that choice, I'm just not convinced it's necessarily the wisest decision.
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    #5
    Mr Ibis.

    Get a life. The post was more than legible. Yes spelling mistakes and a missing word, being the grammatical error.

    It's a drug forum post/ thread, not a thesis.

    In a nutshell. Particular use of grammar often is dicted by the medium and writing form.

    No point in dick sizing but I have a B.A, B.B and an MBA. You do not gain these credentials without being able to spell and use proper grammar.

    Maybe you should spend less time on this site and get in touch with the real world. If you have 1806 posts here i would say that says enough.

    People are such dicks on this forum now.

    Other point. I'm no noob when it comes to addiction.
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    #6
    Ex-Bluelighter
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    If you want to discuss something how about you address opposing opinions/views and actually have a discussion instead of starting a shitstorm of unnecessary negativity.
    All he did was say if you want to make a decent statement you should think about things before you post them, and use the English language correctly. Why the fuck are you making it personal? Even if he does clock up lots of time on BL what the fuck does it have to do with you? Yeah, people are dicks, stop being a dick, you fucking dick.
    Do I agree with what you're saying? No. Would I want to be born 100 years ago? No. Do I think adults should have the liberty to do something that doesn't hurt others? Yes. Do I think this is a bad thread? Yes. Am I posting in it anyway? Yes.
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    #7
    Bluelighter Busty St Clare's Avatar
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    Have you ever asked yourself why they stopped open availability of opiates to the masses? The fact is during those times they had massive problems with junkies. The fun police didn't decide to reign in their use rather society decided they didn't need another mess like what was created by opium dens. You don't stay a functioning addict for long. Soon enough opiates take hold and will suck the life out of you.

    This forum is an interesting case study if you are here long enough to study it. It is a common theme with opiate users to travel from a position of control to wonder to grief as the long fingers of addiction takes it grip. Have you asked your self why you are depressed? What changes when you take an opiate to improve your state of mind? Personally I'm not a fan of any medical intervention but accept that some people's affliction needs more than just a solid kick ip the bum. I don't see how escaping into the land of nod is doing nothing more than hiding your symptoms rather than treating the cause of your depression.

    I would miss effective anaethetics and MDMA
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    #8
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    I see this post as two statements...depression and how to deal with it via certain medications (Which I won't discuss at all) and the second 'Do you wish you were born 100 years ago"

    With the wonderful benefit of hindsight, I would love to have been born 100 years ago...imagine all the goodies! I'd be like a little boy in a lollie shop...I could try this, I could try that...what a delight.

    However, I'd be reluctant to go overboard knowing the ramifications of the medications involved.

    I would imagine that that the negative impact of certain medications wouldn't have been widely known as they are now!
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    #9
    Bluelighter Crankinit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busty St Clare View Post
    Have you ever asked yourself why they stopped open availability of opiates to the masses? The fact is during those times they had massive problems with junkies. The fun police didn't decide to reign in their use rather society decided they didn't need another mess like what was created by opium dens. You don't stay a functioning addict for long. Soon enough opiates take hold and will suck the life out of you.

    This forum is an interesting case study if you are here long enough to study it. It is a common theme with opiate users to travel from a position of control to wonder to grief as the long fingers of addiction takes it grip. Have you asked your self why you are depressed? What changes when you take an opiate to improve your state of mind? Personally I'm not a fan of any medical intervention but accept that some people's affliction needs more than just a solid kick ip the bum. I don't see how escaping into the land of nod is doing nothing more than hiding your symptoms rather than treating the cause of your depression.

    I would miss effective anaethetics and MDMA
    That's fair enough, but they tried the same thing with alcohol 2 decades later, and look how that turned out. As weed proves, there's little direct correlation between the harmfulness of a substance and it's legal status, and there are plenty of studies and programs that suggest that a program of regulation would result in far less harm than the current prohibitionist tactics.
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    #10
    Bluelighter Busty St Clare's Avatar
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    I don't see Saudi Arabia having the same social problems as Australia when it comes to alcohol. It is illegal with far more serious consequences of getting caught than 1930's standards however it still exists, but as pretty much anyone can manufacture it you don't have organised crime controlling it. Prohibition in America was only a failure because the general population were idiots about it, feeding and nurturing criminal organisations. Easy enough to home brew on your own and everyone is happy. This isn't possible with drugs like opium or cocaine, criminals will always fill this void.

    Look at these happy bastards......



    Not a fucking care in the world
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    #11
    Bluelighter Crankinit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busty St Clare View Post
    I don't see Saudi Arabia having the same social problems as Australia when it comes to alcohol. It is illegal with far more serious consequences of getting caught than 1930's standards however it still exists, but as pretty much anyone can manufacture it you don't have organised crime controlling it. Prohibition in America was only a failure because the general population were idiots about it, feeding and nurturing criminal organisations. Easy enough to home brew on your own and everyone is happy. This isn't possible with drugs like opium or cocaine, criminals will always fill this void.

    Look at these happy bastards......



    Not a fucking care in the world
    Replace the pipes with pints and they could be relaxing after a hard day of work... Sans the liver damage, brain damage, carcinogenesis and resulting violence and social disorder.
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    #12
    Bluelighter Busty St Clare's Avatar
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    You can have a few pints and still roll to your work in the mines most mornings. The morning after a pipe, not so easy.

    Karaoke night at the local would be a bit dismal too.
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    #13
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    all hail the dream pipe!
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    #14
    Bluelighter Crankinit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busty St Clare View Post
    You can have a few pints and still roll to your work in the mines most mornings. The morning after a pipe, not so easy.

    Karaoke night at the local would be a bit dismal too.
    I dunno, I always feel a lot better the morning after opi's than I do the morning after booze.
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    #15
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    yeah i agree - in my experience, opium is a much more functional drug than alcohol.
    i've gone to work countless times the day after taking opiates, with no ill effect.

    "Have you ever asked yourself why they stopped open availability of opiates to the masses? The fact is during those times they had massive problems with junkies."
    who is "they"? i just don't think this is historically accurate.
    opium was originally banned in the united states because it was the drug of choice amongst chinese immigrants. as australia has demonstrated in the last 10 years, racism is a very powerful political tool, and resentment amongst the local populace can be very easily manipulated by persecuting ethnic groups. chinese-run opium dens were seen as a hotbed of "sin" and "vice", corrupting the morals of white women.
    cannabis, likewise, was associated with mexican migrants.
    neither of these drugs, or the social/ethnic groups that traditionally used them were part of the culture of the white ruling classes.

    the claim that "they had massive problems with junkies" applies much more to the advent of two things - morphine/heroin and the hypodermic syringe.
    sure, addiction did surely take off into all new depths of desperation and depravity after then, but to claim that the drug/class of drugs is to blame, and that others are ok just seems like puritanism. haven't we collectively gotten past thinking in these terms?

    like the OP saying "100 years ago before the Harrision Taxation act took place in the states pretty much all forms of strong opiods and amphetimines were available as tonics ect.." it just doesn't seem very historically truthful - amphetamine wasn't available commercially until the 1930s.

    i agree that contemporary anti-depressant medications are very problematic with large amounts of disturbing side-effects.
    i don't necessarily agree that opiates are a better option (they have a lot of complex complications of their own) but hey, i guess they work for me
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    #16
    "I would miss effective anaethetics and MDMA "

    Awww poor junkie needs his lovie huggy drug??? AWW haha j/k

    Naw all kidding aside I don't beleive opiates do make good anti-depressants, I'm in a hurry but I'll be back later to go in depth as to why, and why I beleive the idea of an anti-depressant that works is erroneous on its own principal, *hint* some people feel shitty and some persistently feel shitty, you won't make it go away forever with a pill.. heroin is really no more/less effective as an anti depressant in my mind than benzos, amphetamines, try-cyclics or ssri's, etc they all to some degree make a sad person feel better some work longer some shorter but in the end none of them are magic beans that magically make you happy, and life without some sadness wouldn't really be living..

    I'll return to post more later..
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    #17
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    ^ I generally agree with this. I don't think I believe in a medicinal 'cure' for depression. I think there are some medicinal crutches that people can use while they do intensive cbt work, or other behavioural therapies - and it's these that are probably the best chance at lasting change. I do believe that mental illnesses are real illnesses, and of course they are caused by neurochemistry - every emotional state or thought could be reduced to neurochemistry. As such some people probably are born with a shitty neurochemical makeup, and while a medication can address this at first, the brain is constantly seeking homeostasis, so any benefit a drug gives you is likely to be temporary.

    Thoughts and behaviours also change neurochemistry and it's through these that I believe lasting change can be effected. Thoughts <--> feelings <--> behaviour; change one of these and you change the others. I believe through cognitive and behavioural therapies, positive structural changes can be made in the brain, and by permanently altering thoughts or behaviours for the better, these structural changes will be much more long lasting.

    I also believe that everyone should be able to use whatever drugs they want to though, regardless of whether or not they have a 'reason' to. 'Wanting to get wrecked' is a good enough reason for me.

    As for the question, I'm glad I live now. Off the shelf smack would be great, but it's not that hard to find anyway. I love learning about all the recent advances in understanding the brain, so I would definitely pick living now, because I'm excited to see where this knowledge goes in the future.
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    #18
    ^ Footscrazy your posts are always well written and insightfull.

    There is no quick fix or magic pill to cure anxiety disorders or clinical depression. Combination of meds and CBT seems the best approach at this stage.

    I ended up on methadone after a DHC and endone spree, go figure. The medical system, at least in the west of Melbourne is just an uphill battle even if you are serious about getting help and putting the gear away. Most decent docs and Pych's finish their studies and go back to the eastern suburbs and practice there.

    In terms of opiods being relitively easy to get. I guess it's who you know as with most things in life.

    May not be the case accross the board but a guy I came to sorta get to know from the pharmacy I go to said he could get anything, sure, no problem but when push came to shove he didn't come through. Maybe an omen but the guys one of the most selfish people I have ever met. Really threw me. He had a H connection but would only let me go through him and only when he was getting some. Same with the Oxy's. He gets them of his dad and takes them on top of what looks like 100+ MG Methadone.

    I did the financial thing and said, hey, what about I pay you an amount for finders fee or something or put me in contact with someone but he said that's not how things work.
    Now, don't get me wrong, this guy is no cure for cancer in waiting quote"I've got 2 bottles of prozac at home man, the strongest anti depressant ever made" lol

    What really threw me was here I am, trying to score some stronger form of an opiod and willing to pay extra but he was, is, to selfish to give me a number ect.
    He knows i'm no narc or anything but the lack to help his fellow man really suprised me.

    I wear a suit most of the time, drive a silver 2010 WRX, so clearly have the money and smarts to not draw attention.

    It is who you know, wish i knew someone.

    The parting question is I guess, when dealing with harder drugs obviously there's more caution but is his behaviour the norm for this territory?
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    #19
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    ^ I've actually been thinking about this for awhile. You say you're from the western suburbs, I also spent some of my teenage years there. I guess my 'drug etiquette' developed over this period. I feel strongly that someone going to one of my dealers without my knowledge, or even without me, is very disrespectful. Unless I've given someone my express permission to go to one of them, I get very, very pissed off if they do. This view was common place amongst many of the people I know from there, and it's just not the 'done thing', I guess. My strong emotional response to it doesn't necessarily fit with my rational thoughts about it, but generally, around there, if you introduce someone to your dealer, you are always somewhat responsible for them. If they're a fuckhead, it means you'll also be cut off. Introducing them basically says, 'I trust this person as a brother or sister'. I'm not saying my view is correct...but that feeling has become very intrinsic to me. I'm not at all surprised he wouldn't give you the number, and when he said 'that's not the way things work' he's right. I'm conflicted in my feelings towards this, because I completely feel this
    Quote Originally Posted by hunter1
    to selfish to give me a number ect.
    but at the same time, what I absorbed growing up has just been so strongly instilled in me.
    Last edited by footscrazy; 16-08-2011 at 14:49.
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    #20
    I agree with people saying that people should have the right to ingest whatever they want but unless you are a fanatical fan of Eugenics then I don't think advocating opiates as a treatment for chronic depression is sensible. There are some great ideas why this may be the case already posted in this thread and ones I'll add. These include: quick tolerance developing to get desired effects (analgesic tolerance develops slower than the psychological tolerances), epic withdrawls when you forget to bring your meds when traveling or just run out, endocrinological problems (lowering of testosterone which is very detrimental to males before the end of reproductive age), immunosupressive issues, just to name a few...

    However the most prominent problem I can see, which footscrazy alluded to, and myself and many other chronic opiate users have experienced, is the loss of a reward system after chronic dosing. You take the drug and almost instantly the reward centres of the brain are activated. They are also activated a lot more than the endogenous (body own) endorphins (endogenous-morphine) can accomplish. What this does is not only psychologically associates taking the drug with pleasure but also desensitises the brain to endorphins (tolerance). While you can easily up the amount of opiate you ingest, the body cannot match the required amount of endorphins needed to activate the reward centre to desired levels. What this means is everyday tasks, jobs, social events, parties, ect which you may have got a good feeling from before (such as finishing a big job, landing a client, parting with mates, ect) seems to be totally unenthralling because there is no "Reward" at the end. Thus you end up like me, no motivation to do things, happy to watch my favourite TV shows all day and do lazy things with friends. This may not always be the case and it is totally possible to recover from, but this may clear up to some people the reason why serious users often become recluse, loose jobs, friends, family or are content with doing shit all.

    Hope that helps with your medication decisions.
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