Bluelight

Thread: Using Heroin when on Methadone Maintenance

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 69
  1. Collapse Details
    Using Heroin when on Methadone Maintenance 
    #1
    Ok, I hate to admit it because I said I never would but I've gotten myself on a methadone program. $30 a week instead of 1 - 3k a week is just better for me at the moment.

    I have a question for anyone who uses heroin on top of methadone. Before going onto methadone I was using at least a gram a day, more when I could afford it or just picked up, whatever. I went on to 80mgs of methadone which was only just holding me and I did not want to go higher, even though my dr wanted me to. I've now gone down to 70mg, and I still find that I need to shoot a lot more than usual to even feel the smack, let alone enjoy it. Is this normal because of the methadone? I'm now shooting a gram per shot and have moved up to 3ml needles because the liquid is just too thick, and I still want more.

    Will this get any better if I reduce the amount of methadone I'm taking or have I completely fucked my tolerance again by going on a methadone program. By again, I mean that after I tried an at-home detox with suboxone, 32mgs a day for a week or so, then tapering off that which wasn't too bad, my tolerance to heroin went up drastically (obviously) and I completely regret doing that.
    Reply With Quote
     

  2. Collapse Details
     
    #2
    Bluelighter SpiritFolk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    543
    You need heaps and even then its mainly just a rush....

    Basically for me was a total waste of time until I was on 20mg daily - 30mg max, and then it doesn't hold you anyways. I spent years trying to find the balance but ended up either nit getting stoned and being just methadone'ed out all fuckin day and looking like crap, or getting high but basically running a methadone and H habit simutaneously.

    Glad I'm off methadone completely and just kicked daily opiate use all together.
    Reply With Quote
     

  3. Collapse Details
     
    #3
    Fuck. That's not what I wanted to hear at all. But thanks for the honesty.

    Yeah man, I am trying to taper off this for the last time. I just want to use once a week after my weekly piss test, but it's getting expensive. I'm just hoping it will get better.
    Reply With Quote
     

  4. Collapse Details
     
    #4
    Most of the people I've spoken to on methadone have said it makes getting high on smack more or less unfeasible, even when they skip a dose first.

    You could try bupe instead, I find if I halve my dose the day beforehand then skip my dose on the day I want to get high, I can get probably 80% of the effect from a shot of smack/morphine.
    Reply With Quote
     

  5. Collapse Details
     
    #5
    Because I'm using so much per shot now and not really feeling the effects, at what stage will it become dangerous? 2 Grams, 3?
    Reply With Quote
     

  6. Collapse Details
     
    #6
    Bluelighter SpiritFolk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    543
    ^^ haha u need a lot of $$ for H to be dangerous on methadone.. You gotta realise how powerful methadone is... I used stupidly waste a G of rock trying to get high at the height of maintenance... sux balls

    i would reduce and get on bupe asap personally... then like crankit said you can skip a dose and get high. still doesn't beat being clean and having the discipline to have the odd shot.... oh wait i'm dreaming again.. sorry
    Reply With Quote
     

  7. Collapse Details
     
    #7
    Bluelighter rachamim's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Nasipit, Mindanao, Philippines
    Posts
    7,955
    Methadone has the strongest receptor affinity of any opiate/opioid, bar none. In other words, opiates and opioids interact with your body by latching onto specific receptorsthough some latch on more firmly than do others. Methadone latches the best. The substance has a huge diffetential between its duration of psychoactivity and its systemic presence. In other words, if you dose on methadone you will nod for maybe twelve hours. At that point you will not be gaining any benefit from the substance. However, it will remain strongly detectectable within your system for nearly another five days. Because methadone is so strongly latched onto your opiate/opioid receptors, no other opiate/opioid...like heroin...can latch on and interact with your body. Typically this is referred to as "Blocking," as in, "Methadone blocks heroin," etc.

    Typically, this "blocking effect" will only kick in at 70mg and above and obly then if the consumer reaches a stage technically known as "Therapeutic Dosing," a phase reached at around the six week mark of regular daily dosing. There will be a partial blicking effect in increments leading up to those 70mgs as well, translating into the consumer's need to indulge in higher than usual amounts of heroin.

    You state that you refused to increase your dosage and even decreased while still experiencing (and fufilling) the desire to use. If you adequately medicated you will lose the urge to use illicit opiates/opioids. Noone can tell you what is right for you but not wanting to dose adequately makes absolutely no sense on any level excepting fear from old wives' tales about the "horrors" of methadone.7
    Reply With Quote
     

  8. Collapse Details
     
    #8
    Bluelighter
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    87
    $100 a week is an unaffordable habit for me, how the fuck can you manage 1-3k
    Reply With Quote
     

  9. Collapse Details
     
    #9
    Bluelight Crew Tommyboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    14,023
    Quote Originally Posted by rachamim View Post
    Methadone has the strongest receptor affinity of any opiate/opioid, bar none. In other words, opiates and opioids interact with your body by latching onto specific receptorsthough some latch on more firmly than do others. Methadone latches the best. The substance has a huge diffetential between its duration of psychoactivity and its systemic presence. In other words, if you dose on methadone you will nod for maybe twelve hours. At that point you will not be gaining any benefit from the substance. However, it will remain strongly detectectable within your system for nearly another five days. Because methadone is so strongly latched onto your opiate/opioid receptors, no other opiate/opioid...like heroin...can latch on and interact with your body. Typically this is referred to as "Blocking," as in, "Methadone blocks heroin," etc.

    Typically, this "blocking effect" will only kick in at 70mg and above and obly then if the consumer reaches a stage technically known as "Therapeutic Dosing," a phase reached at around the six week mark of regular daily dosing. There will be a partial blicking effect in increments leading up to those 70mgs as well, translating into the consumer's need to indulge in higher than usual amounts of heroin.

    You state that you refused to increase your dosage and even decreased while still experiencing (and fufilling) the desire to use. If you adequately medicated you will lose the urge to use illicit opiates/opioids. Noone can tell you what is right for you but not wanting to dose adequately makes absolutely no sense on any level excepting fear from old wives' tales about the "horrors" of methadone.7
    I don't think that this is correct. Methadone does not have the highest binding affinity of all opiates, and that is not how it blocks other opiates. It is buprenorphine that has the high binding affinity, and that is how it blocks other opiates. Basically the blockade effect of methadone and suboxone is not the same. This is why taking buprenorphine causes precipitated withdrawals if you take it too soon after another opiate, whereas you can dose methadone in combination with another opiate, and as long as it's within a safe dose, the user will be fine.

    Methadone just raises your tolerance since you have a high dose opiate in your system for pretty much 24/7 if you are going to the clinic. The analogy that I use to describe how methadone blocks the high of another opiate is that of a heavy drinker. If a heavy drinker is going through 24 beers a day (methadone) then a few shots of liquor (heroin) on top of it won't really do anything. Buprenorphine on the other hand simply doesn't let other opiates attach due to its high affinity, thus blocking them.
    Reply With Quote
     

  10. Collapse Details
     
    #10
    Bluelighter SpiritFolk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    543
    Basically the blockade effect of methadone and suboxone is not the same. This is why taking buprenorphine causes precipitated withdrawals if you take it too soon after another opiate, whereas you can dose methadone in combination with another opiate, and as long as it's within a safe dose, the user will be fine.

    Totally agree with this. Changing from methadone to bupe, after longtime methadone use was severly painful. Precipitated w/d are terrible. Taking most other opiates with methadone is fine but was often pointless for me.

    I do find bupe though a better drug than methadone as I find it was easier to taper and get of maintenace completely. Bupe is mega blocker for sure though.
    Reply With Quote
     

  11. Collapse Details
     
    #11
    ...
    Last edited by opi8; 14-11-2012 at 07:09.
    Reply With Quote
     

  12. Collapse Details
     
    #12
    ^ I know how you feel, I function better on opiates than I ever did sober, they just give me a motivation and sense of contentment that I don't get in ordinary life, and I think the same is probably true for most opiate users.

    Did you not get any relief from methadone? I started bupe 4 months ago and while it's not as good as morphine or oxy, the background buzz it gives is still enough that I can live my life and don't constantly crave opiates.
    Reply With Quote
     

  13. Collapse Details
     
    #13
    Bluelighter rachamim's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Nasipit, Mindanao, Philippines
    Posts
    7,955
    Tommyboy: All you had to do was look up the Binding Profile of each substance for each of the relevant receptors. If you had done that you would have saved yourself - and me- some time. As for buprenorphine precipitating physical withdrawall due to its supposedly "higher Binding Profile"...that is entirely due to the substance's high antagonism, end of story. Nabulphine will also precipitate for the same teasons or has it suddenly developed a super Binding Profile as well?
    Last edited by rachamim; 14-03-2012 at 14:37. Reason: spelling
    Reply With Quote
     

  14. Collapse Details
     
    #14
    Bluelighter rachamim's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Nasipit, Mindanao, Philippines
    Posts
    7,955
    Spirit:Your switching from methadone to bupe was so painful because you switched from a full on agonist, methadone, to a highly antagonistic substance, bupe. This is why doctors will tell you not to begin bupe until you are fully in withdrawal. If switching from methadone the guideline is 36 hours after your last dose of methadone. However, I definitely feel tgat is 24 to 48 hours to soon.
    Reply With Quote
     

  15. Collapse Details
     
    #15
    If I was to switch from methadone to bupe, would it be best pain wise to have my last dose of methadone, then use something with a shorter half life such as heroin or oxy for a week and then go on bupe?
    Reply With Quote
     

  16. Collapse Details
     
    #16
    Ex-Bluelighter Busty St Clare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Nice, France
    Posts
    12,775
    Opi8, excuse my ignorance but why are you on methadone if you still want to use heroin? Are you using it to help taper the heroin habit or are you just enetering the programme half hearted? I don't completely understand the treatment but I thought methadone was used as a replacement while also preventing the action of heroin. Is it common for methadone users to use both (apart from obviously relapse patients) ?
    Reply With Quote
     

  17. Collapse Details
     
    #17
    Bluelighter SpiritFolk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    543
    QUOTE=rachamim;10410743]Spirit:Your switching from methadone to bupe was so painful because you switched from a full on agonist, methadone, to a highly antagonistic substance, bupe. This is why doctors will tell you not to begin bupe until you are fully in withdrawal. If switching from methadone the guideline is 36 hours after your last dose of methadone. However, I definitely feel tgat is 24 to 48 hours to soon.[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for the info. Yes I went by the guidelines of 36 hours and the first time switch was fine as at that stage I had just been on methdaone for 1 year for the first time. It was the second that fucked me for days. I had been on for 70mg for about 3 years (not that heavy compared to some) at that stage and had other opiate habits previously and the guideline of 36 hours went out the window. Going of how many days I was in painful w/d which was like frying from the inside, very very unpleasant, I would say 72 hours is a better guideline. However sitting on methadone w/d ofr 72 hours is big fuckin ask too.

    Busty, I think a lot of users go on methadone not really by choice its just that they can't afford scoring enough H as was my case. So once you get on Methadone you still crave as having a proper shot as methadone just sucks after awhile. So even though I wanted to just use gear I was put in a situation where I couldn't manage it and had to resort to a maintenance program... at that stage I still very much just wanted to use H.
    Reply With Quote
     

  18. Collapse Details
     
    #18
    Ex-Bluelighter Busty St Clare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Nice, France
    Posts
    12,775
    I wasn't trying to be a dick opi8, I was just curious as to how it works. How safe is it mixing methadone with heroin, is the risk of overdose greatly reduced?
    Reply With Quote
     

  19. Collapse Details
     
    #19
    Bluelight Crew Tommyboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    14,023
    Quote Originally Posted by rachamim View Post
    Tommyboy: All you had to do was look up the Binding Profile of each substance for each of the relevant receptors. If you had done that you would have saved yourself - and me- some time. As for buprenorphine precipitating physical withdraeal due to its supposedly higher Binding Profile...that is entirely due to the substance's high antagonism, end of story. Nabulphine will also precipitate for the same teasons or has it suddenly developed a super Binding Profile as well?
    The lower the value on the binding profile, the better the fit and efficiency at the receptor site. That is why methadone having the that high value on the binding profile does not mean it is the reason it blocks other drugs. Morphine which has a lower binding value than methadone at the mu receptor site, but that actually means it will bind more efficiently than methadone at that site. It has a lower value at the other two receptor sites, but those receptors are not responsible for the main effects of morphine Buprenorphine has a very low value on the binding profile, but that means it has a very high affinity. If the drug you mentioned has a lower value on the binding profile, than it has a higher affinity. Opiate displacement (causing precipitated withdrawals) is only possible because antagonists have a higher affinity to the binding site, yet if you look at the binding profiles you will find them at the bottom since the low values mean high binding affinities.

    Therefore antagonism, receptor affinity, binding profile, and precipitated withdrawal are all related. Also this confirms the reasons for the different causes of the blockade effect between methadone and buprenorphine.

    The info is here. It confused the hell out of me at first because it kept mentioning the very high affinity of buprenorphine, and then showing a very low value, but then I finally read the fine print that explained that lower value meant higher affinity.
    Last edited by Tommyboy; 13-03-2012 at 11:21.
    Reply With Quote
     

  20. Collapse Details
     
    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Busty St Clare View Post
    I wasn't trying to be a dick opi8, I was just curious as to how it works. How safe is it mixing methadone with heroin, is the risk of overdose greatly reduced?
    I think it's greatly reduced, and then more so. I don't know exactly, but I shoot way more now than I felt safe shooting before I was on methadone, It kinda pisses me off.

    I'm sure someone else knows more about it than I do.
    Reply With Quote
     

  21. Collapse Details
     
    #21
    Bluelighter
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    hoods up heads down
    Posts
    8,026
    i dont know many people at all on MMT but the few i do know still shoot smack. they're on about 35mg doses if i remember correctly, and they still nod all over themselves after a fat shot. im not around them enough to know what they're doing wrong/right. i know a guy who used to be on 65mg and is now down to 35mg, he could go higher but doesnt want to, which makes me think you need to try to lower your methadone dosage... its pretty insane the doses you are doing and feeling next to nothing from it.

    how much smack were you using at your worst??
    Reply With Quote
     

  22. Collapse Details
     
    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by opi8 View Post
    Before I was on Methadone, when I used up my entire line of credit, savings and borrowed thousands of dollars from friends and family, I was using a minimum of a gram a day, more after I'd just picked up or was depressed or just fiendish for whatever reason. The max I'd do was 2 or 3 grams a day, but that was rare. Now I only buy enough for 1 or 2 shots, so usually a 1.7 or a 3.5.
    I think getting on the methadone was a really good choice bro. Seems like when people start getting into heavy debt is when they start getting near the end of their rope. Wouldn't be a very good situation to be in I can imagine.

    I always used to think methadone would add to the chance of a heroin OD...but someone posted something on here that suggested that wasn't the case at all.

    Your biggest risk by far is alcohol and benzos so just be really careful with those.

    Methadone produces it's 'blocking' effect by raising your tolerance so high that it'd take huge amounts of heroin to get the rush and same euphoric effects as before. (AFAIK) Lots of people on methadone still use heroin though, and I've seen people nod out as slortaone mentioned....most of them say it's not worth it afterwards, and mostly a waste of money.
    Reply With Quote
     

  23. Collapse Details
     
    #23
    Bluelighter rachamim's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Nasipit, Mindanao, Philippines
    Posts
    7,955
    Tommyboy: First, you are confusing Binding Profile with Affinity, which is merely one aspect of the former. You seem to be...well, actually you ARE confusing mathematical values. Kd, nM, mM, Ki, DR...these all signify different values. If you want to learn about Affinity a great place to begin would be Receptor Occupancy followed by Mass Action Kinetics.

    On your comment about methadone having a "lower profile," profiles arent lower OR higher, they merely articulate properties. If instead, you meant to say that methadone has a lower Affinity Value (Kd), yes, correct, but who said otherwise. A nano molar trumps a micro molar any day of the week. The way to properly express it is, the smaller the Dissociation Constant, the greater the affinity. To reiterate, methadone has the highest receptor affinity of any opiate/opioid, affinity being the firmness with which a chemical binds to the receptor. Bupe is a mediocre proxy whose antagonism, metabolic ceiling and psychoactive deficiency render it worthless to most Opioid Substitution clients. If a person has a low volume habit and/or a habit of short duration (usually coupled with relatively short history of usage), bupe would probably be a good fit. Its ability to "block" is tied to its antagonism though that can be defeated as many here know.
    Last edited by rachamim; 14-03-2012 at 02:38. Reason: spelling
    Reply With Quote
     

  24. Collapse Details
     
    #24
    Bupe is a mediocre proxy whose antagonism, metabolic ceiling and psychoactive deficiency render it worthless to most Opioid Substitution clients. If a person has a low volume habit and/or a habit of short duration (usually coupled with relatively short history of usage), bupe would probably be a good fit. Its ability to "block" is tied to its antagonism though that can be defeated as many here know.
    That's not true at all dude. Plenty of people find bupe helpful, myself included. Stop projecting your own opinion onto the population at large.
    Reply With Quote
     

  25. Collapse Details
     
    #25
    Bluelighter SpiritFolk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    543
    I am with Crankit here. Bupe was the last stage of maintenence (which was still being on it for over a year) after H and methadone. It was the best maintenance drug as it lasts long, you can't use easily, and it's easier in my opinion to taper off than Methadone.. I don't think I would be as clean as I am today if it wasn't tapering of bupe and then into rehab..
    Reply With Quote
     

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •