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    Are there honestly any worthwhile Research Chemicals? 
    #1
    Ex-Bluelighter Busty St Clare's Avatar
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    I am first to admit that I am old school. I was raised on a diet of cannabis, MDMA, lsd, mushrooms and speed (with the odd bit of ketamine thrown in to lift the mood). When 2CB first entered my life it was some what of a novelty. A subtle miss match of MDMA and acid. After that, a steady flow of 2C alphabets came along, but each one never really matched the original chemicals. Each one has a slight difference but had side effects that were brushed over because it was "better than nothing".

    Then more RC's started to enter the scene. To begin with they were legal so it made sense to get excited about them, but they still all lacked the same magic of their original counterpart. The high didn't last as long, or too long, they has a nasty comedown or body load or some were/are so unpredictable that one night they can be awesome, then the next time a nightmare (I'm looking at you JWHx).

    While they were legal it was easier to ignore the disappointment, but now that most loop holes are shut are there any of these new compounds worth the effort? If given the choice between ketamine and MXE for example, who would still choose the latter? Have I miss something or are the stream of new drugs coming onto the market just a poor imitation of the originals?
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    #2
    Honestly, you're pretty much right there. I'd choose MXE over street K, just because most out of the K out there these days is godawful (I IM'd 2 points a few weeks ago and just got a little wonky, disgraceful. Back in the day 1pt snorted would have you off in space talking to Krishna), but given the choice between the two in pure form, there'd be no contest. Same for 4-mmc (or any of the dozens of empathogen RC's) v. MDMA, or MDPV etc. v coke/meth.

    The only ones they've gotten right are the benzos, but I guess maybe a benzo is pretty hard to fuck up, because otherwise you're right. I was wondering about this myself the other day, why, with all the infinite possibilities of science, have they not struck on a chemical better than the originals? If I had to make a wild guess, I'd think that most of the groups synthing these things are just adding a molecule here or there then selling it off as soon as they hit something remotely recreational, but maybe a truly perfect drug is a hard to come by. Maybe MDMA, or K, or whatever, really are one in a million, and that's why they floated to the top in the black market.
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    #3
    Bluelighter jones-in_J's Avatar
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    Mxe is alright and dirt cheao too thats the best part

    4-aco-dmt is by far my favorite its EXACTLY the same as mushrooms exceot it doesnt go bad like them (at least not for years in the furmanate salt form, don't get freebase form)
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    #4
    I and a few of my friends enjoy mxe qlmost as much as ketamine , its safety profile is reasonably well established. I dont mind bk substances like bk,mdma and bk mdbd, 4-mmc is not too bad either but due to issus with vascular constriction I am wary of this rc,

    Problem is with more and more rcs becomin avalible is the increased risk of ppl getting into a false sense of securit, and there not showing apropriate caution.

    Rcs seems to be being passed off pr cut with similar more established chems. Such as the current problem with cociane being cut with apvp
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    #5
    Bluelighter Help?!?!'s Avatar
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    None of them are imitations anyones, this is simply what people wish them to be. I would almost bet that even with nearly exact same Ki values as another classed chemical it wouldn't give the exact same effect due to different metabolites with different actions/etc. Its just peoples dream to replace the illegal drugs with legal ones. I don't personally like it because its like your the kid who just keeps trying to ram that square peg into the round whole, it ain't neva gonna work brah! Oh well, with that out of the way, yes there definitely are worthwhile legal compounds, you also have to remember that these chemicals are dropping like flies then the fact that these aren't/don't have or use the same procedures they used to when the majority of these compounds where founded, as well when the "winners" were founded there were like 2 other known chemicals in the same class not a literal 9,998 with similar binding affinities that look like winners, then lastly you must navigate the waters of the whole "isomer" thing for certain countries while allowing others to still get in on the fun. This industry is literally driven by dollar signs so that is where most thought is placed in terms releasing chemicals, then IMO do people start to focus more on the actual effects leaning more towards replicating something. The whole "Legals are always shit" was the old school way of thinking back when anyone would scoff at you for trying to act like you had a chemical that could do more than be 1/5th as good as its imitator as thats how it went, but then college level O-chem students plus the clandestine chemists finally discovered the beauty of simply switching an Ethyl with a Methyl at whatever position and bam completely legal/sometimes you won out and increased potency where it was needed! I would pursue MXE if you generally like diss's as MXE is good. MXE and ket are pretty vastly different IMO so much so that I really don't even feel comfortable comparing them in that sense because you won't really have much of an idea of what its like except maybe if I said something like "Like a low dose of K minus the sedation which is replaced by light hearted stimulation throw in some wonky confusion at certain points and extend the duration a sure 3-4 hours but for me personally MXE lasts about 8ish orally dosed orally.
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    #6
    Ex-Bluelighter Busty St Clare's Avatar
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    The thing is with the local analogue laws pretty much everything is illegal, so that isn't really a plus.

    It appears to me that none of these recent chemicals have been an improvement. It would be nice to suddenly discover a short acting lsd-like substance or a mdma-like substance that has minimal comedown. I just haven't seen anything whose side effects are not worse than the old school. Surely we haven't reached the pinnacle of drugs already?
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    #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busty St Clare View Post
    I just haven't seen anything whose side effects are not worse than the old school
    MXE was synth'd in an attempt to be easier on your body (liver) than K

    I mean look at how Shulgin brought MDMA to the eyes of the public. There could be awesome drugs that have already been synthesized and we just haven't caught on..
    Improvement is also subjective, there are people who prefer MXE to K.
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    #8
    Administrator spacejunk's Avatar
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    It's all a matter of expectations.
    I don't think you should look at research chems as "replacements" of the "originals".
    Recreational drugs as we know them (ie the ones that have been popular in the last 30 years) are the result of a number of coincidences and historical quirks.
    Why wouldn't I want to try psychedelics unheard of since the 1960s that never circulate on the Australian black market?
    Why do people worship MDMA as some perfect drug for example, yet pure mescaline is incredibly rare?

    There are a lot of exotic chemicals out there that niether hit the black-market mainstream, nor became available to consumers via research chemical vendors online.

    As for the supposed illegality of analogues; we are yet to see these laws enforced very much in Australia. Not for importing or possessing quantities for personal use, anyway. Charges for small quantities are very rare (to nonexistent, to my knowledge)
    Sure, they'll get confiscated by customs, but so will pirated DVDs.

    For people who have better things to do than chase up dodgy hook-ups, a bit of judicious internet research can turn you on to all manner of interesting things. Most of them are extremely cheap by Australian standards too.
    I hate MDMA so I'm not interested in finding a research chem equivalent, so perhaps it is a matter of taste.

    I think the idea that research chems exist to replace or outdo the more established, well known recreational substances is the wrong way to approach the whole thing.
    This is fine however - I think the fewer people taking RCs the better, frankly.

    The thing Ive really enjoyed, in my brief period of experimentation, is to explore some novel tryptamines (agreed with jones-in, 4aco-dmt is a fave) and try some classes of substances that I've never had access to previously.
    I don't mix in heavy drug circles; most of my friends are musicians, artists, academics - people who might take drugs, but very few of my friends sell them nowadays.
    I'm not a raver, I don't dig the "party scene" and my energies go into other pursuits - not necessarily ones that open up my access to drug contacts.
    In taking the plunge with cautious exploration of research chemicals, I now have access to things I've only dreamt about before. I've been able to develop a stash which I intend to have onhand for years. I wont be guzzling grams at a time over a weekend, but I like having it quietly stashed away for when I might need some.
    I'm not interested in trying to convince a dr that I need benzos, but I like to have some onhand for comedowns or stressful times (like the funeral I went to yesterday). I'm not going to become addicted to them, I don't find them recreational, but I like to have some onhand, just in case.
    Same goes for stims- I don't take them recreationally more than a couple of times a year anymore, but I find it very convenient to have them around.
    If I'm moving house, for example, I like to be speeding off my chops while I pack up my stuff, but id rather not pay $xxx to do so.

    Drugs are very very expensive in Australia, and usually pretty cut (depending on what you are getting). I dont like spending all of my expendable income on drugs, it has never sat well with me. There are plenty of other things I would rather use that money on, but I still like to get high, when I get the urge.
    For the sake of curiosity, I have found some research chems to be very useful. I don't take every new substance on the market, I don't take drugs with the expectation that they'll replicate some other drug, and I research things very thoroughly before I even think about ordering them.

    No, there aren't many that perfectly replicate the stereotypical illegals, but some of these drugs have different qualities of their own that make them very interesting and even beautiful. I have not yet tried the NBOMe series, but a lot of reports have described them as similar to LSD but a little less physically taxing.
    To see them as a "legal" or semilegal replacement is the wrong way to look at it, in my opinion. A lot of these drugs are new substances, and it is ignorant to presume that they are nothing more than a substitute of illegal drugs we are already familiar with...which is a big reason for some people running into problems when they take MDPV as they would consume meth, for example.
    Last edited by spacejunk; 25-07-2012 at 06:38.
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    #9
    6-APB & 5-APB are excellent!! one of my favourite experiences on a substance is the first time I tried 6-APB, Ive never felt such euphoria from ANYTHING.

    But as you probably know, theres a lot of fake 6-APB out there so be careful if ordering this one
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    #10
    Bluelighter jones-in_J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tranq View Post
    I and a few of my friends enjoy mxe qlmost as much as ketamine , its safety profile is reasonably well established. I dont mind bk substances like bk,mdma and bk mdbd, 4-mmc is not too bad either but due to issus with vascular constriction I am wary of this rc,

    Problem's is with more and more rcs becomin avalible is the increased risk of ppl getting into a false sense of securit, and there not showing apropriate caution.

    Rcs seems to be being passed off pr cut with similar more established chems. Such as the current problem with cociane being cut with apvp
    Dude your avatar is going to either give me a seizure or make me throw up. I've never complained about one before but concentrating on those lights blinking at 145am was driving my eyes crazy lol
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    #11
    MXE hands down. Haven't really tried any other research chemicals that are worthwhile (yet)

    I've only tried ketamine once so not really experienced enough to compare them properly.

    3-meo-pcp was interesting and good times for me. I'd imagine more crazy making than MXE if you didn't have the right set/setting.

    I agree with spacejunk about treating them separate than just simple replacements.
    Last edited by Christ!; 25-07-2012 at 08:52.
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    #12
    The thing is with the local analogue laws pretty much everything is illegal, so that isn't really a plus.
    This is true, but since they're widely sold on the internet they're generally much cheaper and much more pure, even if you don't order it yourself.

    I'm actually surprised RC's are as reliable as they are. It would be so easy to make a fake vendor, rip people off for a few weeks then bail with their funds. Don't understand why it doesn't happen more often, not that I'm complaining.
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by tranq View Post
    I and a few of my friends enjoy mxe qlmost as much as ketamine , its safety profile is reasonably well established
    I guess that depends how you define reasonable compared to ketamine we know hardly anything.
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    #14
    Administrator spacejunk's Avatar
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    I enjoyed mxe for a while, but that enjoyment wore off eventually. I don't think dissociatives are my thing.
    I don't think "research chemical" is a very helpful classification, really. Some RCs are decades old, some are brand new, and they cover most of the classes of drugs used recreationally.
    I think tryptamines in their various forms are the most interesting to pursue, but again, this is a matter of personal taste; I love dmt and psilocybin, so why wouldn't I want to explore their various analogues where possible?
    I'm not interested in the various RC stimulants beyond having one or two functional ones stashed away for times they might come in handy....but (unlike a lot of folks, it seems) I am fully aware of the risks of taking untested (or less well understood) substances.
    I used to be very much opposed to the idea of being a human guinea pig, but I've come around to the idea of trying some of these things while I can. My main interest is in the RC psychedelics though.
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    #15
    MXE is a real blue balls type drug. In low moderate doses it gives that nice spacey comfortable dissociation, but if you kick up the dose you just get more detached but never quite push right through the other side like you do on K. Would be like if you took MDMA, started to come up, got a bit happy and warm and stimulated, but never quite peaked. Don't get me wrong it's still enjoyable, but it never takes me quite far enough.
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    #16
    Ex-Bluelighter Busty St Clare's Avatar
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    That's kind of how I feel with bk,mdma and 4-mmc. There was a nice honeymoon period with next to no comedowns until you get to the stage when even the smell of it causes me to dry retch.
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    #17
    Administrator spacejunk's Avatar
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    ^ I feel that way about methamphetamine, MDMA and especially alcohol.
    But each to their own. I'm no advocate for people taking research chemicals, but I think if you make the effort to inform yourself as well as you can, do your homework and approach them with respect, they're no worse than other drugs.
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Busty St Clare View Post
    That's kind of how I feel with bk,mdma and 4-mmc. There was a nice honeymoon period with next to no comedowns until you get to the stage when even the smell of it causes me to dry retch.
    I was actually really surprised by 4MMC. This was back when RC's were just becoming a thing, and I figured it'd just be like some third rate herbal high. I necked a 300mg cap at a club in the city expecting a light, probably uncomfortable buzz, so imagine my surprise when an hour later I'm melting into the chair, eyes wobbling so hard I can't use my phone and loving the world. It felt really, really close to the real thing, just a speedier, shorter version. If I hadn't known what it was I'd have thought it was MDMA cut with speed. That said, I'd still prefer real, clean MDMA. Never tried bk-mdma though.

    I had a lot of fun with it for a few weeks, luckily it disappeared before it had a chance to turn shitty on me.
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    #19
    Bluelight Crew footscrazy's Avatar
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    Excellent posts again spacejunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by spacejunk
    I don't think "research chemical" is a very helpful classification, really. Some RCs are decades old, some are brand new, and they cover most of the classes of drugs used recreationally.
    My opinion is similar to this. 'Research Chemicals' to me is a pretty arbitrary and meaningless term relating more to legal status and age/history of the compound than anything else. As such, I don't think 'Research Chemicals' is a group that can be meaningfully generalised on. Whether there are any worthwhile RC's is a fair enough question, but to think that what one or many RCs are like has any bearing on the category 'Research Chemicals' as a whole doesn't make much sense, IMO.
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    #20
    Bluelighter jones-in_J's Avatar
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    Yea thats kinda like asking if there are any worthwhile drugs in general lol theyre about as diverse, onky class that there isnt much of in rc's is the opiate type. Which sucks cuz its my favorite but is good cuz itd prob get so popular that everything would get cracked down on worse
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    #21
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    3-meo-pcp was interesting and good times for me. I'd imagine more crazy making than MXE if you didn't have the right set/setting.
    Yes, 3-MeO-PCP is one of the best things (RC or otherwise) I've ever tried, and yes it can push you over into frightening territory much faster than MXE. Taking a bit too much (far too much, in my case) is like being on a beach in the tropics, wading out into beautiful crystal blue water, a light warm breeze touching your body, feeling about as good as you've ever felt in your life - and then taking one more step and discovering that the shoreline suddenly drops off. The water depth goes from 50 centimetres to 5 miles and you sink down like a rock, that clear blue water becoming black and impossibly dense, suffocating.

    The combination of MXE and 3-MeO-PCP is in my top three best experience-makers. That combo has been a winner a dozen times or so for me. I felt great. I got some amazing insights which remain with me. But twice I've nearly cracked on it in a way I have never come close to on anything else. One of those times in particular was the single scariest experience I've ever had in my life. No exceptions. I was very irresponsible and nearly paid for it with my sanity. It came about after a day of smoking a-PVP and sniffing unmeasured lines of MXE mixed with 3-MeO-PCP. Yes, I was extremely stupid, and yes, I am extremely fortunate to be here and relatively together. All I have left in the way of memories of that incident is fragments:

    -sitting at the computer happily listening to music and suddenly feeling my personality divide into several parts which began to speak all at once. You know the voices in your head (yes, everyone has them) which are always there saying inane things like "I'm hungry", and "I can't be bothered going to work today", and whatnot? Those voices. Except that now they were OUTSIDE of my head and speaking as if they were people in the room. Very surreal. My aspects began speaking to each other, some calming down the others that were freaking out. Basically, I ceased to exist as a single entity and became an observer to this room full of 'me's who were all yammering away. (Not a great start to an evening, non?)

    -suddenly coming to in the backyard, standing in the rain in the dark, shaking, with no reference points (dreaming? dying? who am I? where am I? have I done something wrong? am I in danger?)

    -slumped at the kitchen counter shaking uncontrollably, with pills (blue ones, white ones, pink ones - who knew I had so many?) and baggies everywhere, my 'box of tricks' upended, trying to cram clonazepam into my mouth to avoid the full psychotic break which I felt was now inevitable. (I also rubbed some clonaz into my left eye for some reason. It's nice and minty when it's under your tongue, but nasty and stingy in your eye).

    -standing in front of the bathroom sink, a metallic, minty taste in my mouth, my eye stinging, utterly confused and fragmented, thinking that I must have ingested some poison somehow (had completely forgotten about the clonaz, of course, and everything else I'd taken that day), trying to scoop water from the tap into my mouth to wash it out, sticking my fingers down my throat

    After that I don't remember much. Not surprising considering I chowed down on clonazepam like TicTacs. Amazingly, incredibly, miraculously, I seem to be still basically the same person as before. No more or less crazy that I can detect. I mean, I've had 'brain' issues since my teens and have pushed the boundaries many times going on and off meds and taking all kinds of stuff in a reckless fashion, but I really am surprised to have come back after that. I think I very narrowly dodged a scary big bullet. Now it's time to have a break (the good type, not the psycho one), be good to myself and become once again deserving of the gift of mental stability which I have foolishly taken for granted. Bye bye BlueLight for a while.

    Anyway, the point of this little story is that there ARE some worthwhile new substances getting around, and they need to be understood ('researched', if you will) well and treated with respect. I still think that 3-MeO-PCP and MXE are amazing, and have genuine capacity for growth and healing.

    3-MeO-PCP is very potent stuff. Does the world really need 3-HO-PCP?
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Busty St Clare View Post
    I am first to admit that I am old school. I was raised on a diet of cannabis, MDMA, lsd, mushrooms and speed (with the odd bit of ketamine thrown in to lift the mood). When 2CB first entered my life it was some what of a novelty. A subtle miss match of MDMA and acid. After that, a steady flow of 2C alphabets came along, but each one never really matched the original chemicals. Each one has a slight difference but had side effects that were brushed over because it was "better than nothing".
    I disagree totally. RCs have quickly obsoleted the old school drugs of choice. If you hold the originals up as ideal standards then the RCs cannot compare. I've come to realize that the originals weren't that great to begin with, they were just "better than nothing". The notion of 'counterparts' makes little sense when discussing RCs. They aren't meant as replacements for anything, but simply new styles/genres of recreational or functional high.

    Your example is the only good one I could think of to back up your argument. Ketamine is still the only really amazing dissociative anaesthetic around. MXE is not an alternative or counterpart at all, it's a completely different type of experience which is not nearly as interesting.

    There's a lot of magic to be found in the following RCs, which provide experiences as qualitatively superior to the lame RCs as your LSD, MDMA, cannabis, speed, etc. experiences were:

    DOC (When you want a 2 day trip)
    Methylone (When you want to roll face and have a blast around sober people or people who you don't want to be on MDMA around)
    2C-T-7 (When you want to experience the ultimate in kaleidoscopic, persistent visuals discovered so far)
    AMT (Why take speed and redose 3 times on mushrooms when you can take the much friendlier AMT which combines all of the best effects of shrooms and meth with minimal side effects)
    25D-NBOMe (Ever want a DOC-like candyflippy type experience with no mindfuck, that leaves you sober just 3-5 hours later? Shrooms won't beat this)
    etizolam (Ever wish Xanax was actually EUPHORIC? Almost like a barbiturate? Well, that's what etizolam is)
    Mephedrone (Ever wish cocaine wasn't so lame? Mephedrone is a loved up drop in replacement for cocaine/crack with less side effects and way more euphoria)
    4-HO-DIPT (Sometimes shrooms are a bit too wavy and harsh and serious and lacking in euphoria. 4-HO-DIPT is like shrooms with euphoria and nystagmus)
    2-FA (This is supposedly in direct competition with Adderall for effective treatment of ADD through enhancement of focus and concentration, but unlike Adderall there's no nationwide shortage)
    JWH-018 (If you're a daily toker, with a tolerance, JWH-018 is not so unpredictable. It's better than medical cannabis for many, many symptoms that real cannabis is useful for treating. JWH-018 has all the analgesia and sedation of indica hashish and all the energetic creativity of expertly crafted high THC sativa kief. Best of both worlds unlike any single strain of cannabis)
    CP 55,940 (The methadone of cannabinoids. One of the most potent by weight, and longest lasting per dose, it's an economical way to maintain a 24/7 stoned lifestyle)

    There are others more rare that I can't comment on as I don't have the experience to say how superior they are to illegal/oldschool drugs like I do with the above mentioned compounds.
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    #23
    Ex-Bluelighter Busty St Clare's Avatar
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    I guess it comes down to preference coolio. I would never consider DOC to be anything more than a very poor adulterant to nice clean lsd. Duration aside (I would never want to trip for longer than 12 hours personally), I have found these trips to be considerably more heavy when it comes to body load and feel that the type of journey you have on lsd a lot more calm and enjoyable. I have a fair bit of experience with both methylone and mephedrone and personally would take clean MDMA or cocaine over either of them. There are so many JWH-x out there that I am sure I may one day enjoy one but I always find them to be to much of a mind fuck and leave a dirty "metallic" feeling in my brain. I'm sorry but I would still prefer natural weed in my experience.

    I have heard nice things about 25d-NBOMe so perhaps I might find something worthwhile eventually, so I haven't given up complete faith in science. My personal hope with future drug research would be not so much the drugs themselves but perhaps the development of recovery drugs. Supplements that restore seretonin or dopamine would be a breakthrough that would perhaps take some of our existing drugs and improve them. The ability to reverse some of the damage and avoid a comedown is something worth investigating.
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Busty St Clare View Post
    ... My personal hope with future drug research would be not so much the drugs themselves but perhaps the development of recovery drugs. Supplements that restore seretonin or dopamine would be a breakthrough that would perhaps take some of our existing drugs and improve them. The ability to reverse some of the damage and avoid a comedown is something worth investigating.
    Yes please. Receptor upgraders - bring it on.
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Busty St Clare View Post
    My personal hope with future drug research would be not so much the drugs themselves but perhaps the development of recovery drugs. Supplements that restore seretonin or dopamine would be a breakthrough that would perhaps take some of our existing drugs and improve them. The ability to reverse some of the damage and avoid a comedown is something worth investigating.
    There are a lot of great recovery drugs out there like silymarin, resveratrol, bacopa, rhodiola, DMAE, Vitamin C, idebenone, green tea extract, L-arginine, DHA/EPA, magnesium citrate, curcumin, niacinamide, (R)-potassium alpha lipoic acid... try preloading and postloading with that entire regimen and you'll feel a lot less body load than ever before.
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