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    The only reason I want to do DMT again is so I can remember 
    #1
    I find the effects of DMT on memory kind of frustrating.

    After my last experience, I felt like I had gone as deep as I could go (or would want to go). It was a rare and precious experience. I thought 'Thank God I never have to do that again!'

    And while I can remember the bliss of coming down, feeling like I had connected with divinity and been reborn, I cannot really remember the experience. Except that 'I' ceased to exist.

    After the experience I went on Facebook to try and describe to my friends what happened, but what I wrote doesn't really trigger any memories now.

    Part of me thinks I kind of 'erased' the memory of the trip by taking an etizolam that night. I've been reading about benzos (I know etizolam isn't technically a benzo) and how they might cause retrograde amnesia, as well as how they prevent you from entering the deepest stages of sleep, which is where memory consolidation takes place.

    So I'm kind of hitting myself right now. I'm thinking 'If only I didn't take the etizolam, then I could remember!' But even as I was talking to my friends on Facebook, I wasn't able to describe what happened, I said it was 'ineffable'. But I think at the time I still had a notion of what the experience was like, which I don't really have now.

    I was kind of hoping that would be my last DMT experience :P I'm not really that curious now to breakthrough into hyperspace and meet the entities, since I can remember that aspect quite clearly.

    I only want to be able to remember that 'enlightened' state. I might have a state-dependent memory of it, meaning I have to be in that state to remember it. But I don't know if I can go down that rabbit hole, of basically chasing that experience (which probably prevents you from having it anyway). I also don't know if I want to re-experience the trauma (as blissful and loving as it was) of feeling that I had left this existence, never to return.

    If anyone else has had an intense mystical experience with DMT, do you have a hard time remembering? Are you ever able to remember, like spontaneously or when in an altered state? Do you think it gets stored as a state-dependent memory? And do you think taking etizolam (it was either .5 or 1mg) is enough to eradicate the memory of the experience, or at least, most of it?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by firdous e bareen; 11-01-2017 at 21:41.
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    The only reason I want to do DMT again is so I can remember 
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    Hey firdous e bareen, you'd probably get a lot more attention with this thread if you posted it in Psychedelic Drugs instead of Trip Reports, you might want to ask someone to move it for you. But, for the moment....

    I hate to tell you, but you don't remember "the answer", no matter what substance takes you there or how many times you take it. The most likely reason being, if you ask me, that there is no answer... just a delusion of having figured it all out. And obviously, if there's no real substance there, then there's nothing really to remember when you come down.

    Enlightenment isn't found in substances, it's found in yourself. Psychedelics and other drugs can help guide you along the way by stimulating your mind and creativity and empathy and other such things, but they themselves are not the end goal. And really, there is no end goal.... Enlightenment is a process, not an achievement. Likewise, there is no bottom of the rabbit hole, just more and more tripping.

    If you don't want to do DMT anymore, then don't do it. Trust me, you can "get there" just as well with other things, so you have plenty of other options to keep exploring that state of mind if you want. Just don't expect it to ever give you the huge payoff you want that sticks upon returning to reality... because you're pretty likely to be disappointed.

    However, I will say that I do find also that there is a state-dependent memory with these things, and though you may not remember everything from your trips while sober, you very well may whenever you're back in that headspace. Of course, that doesn't make it necessarily any more meaningful... but it can be fun, interesting, and refreshing in a more instinctive way. But whether or not that's worth the trip is up to you.
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    #3
    There is amnesia from benzo's but to me that is a completely different mechanism than forgetting a DMT experience. Etizolam or not you probably could not bring back the ride your consciousness goes on when it goes so far out into seemingly different dimensions. There is that filtering mechanism talked about by Adlous Huxley. Normal consciousness is not cut out to ride those areas DMT can bring one too.

    Usually after DMT I am emotionally moved and astounded but I can not really remember why. I just know I was somewhere interesting.
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    This kind of reminds me of that "ah HA!" moment that happens at the peak of a nitrous experience. It's like for a brief second you grasp and finally understand something of ultimate importance. It's like all of time, the universe, consciousness, everything etc finally makes complete sense in a grand way... But only for a brief fleeting moment. Then you come down and the feeling fades. You can't quite remember anymore.

    I kind of agree with kaleida. I don't think the user actually understands everything... I think it's a false drug induced sensation. Kind of like the way people feel deja vu on mdma... It's not true deja vu but instead it's a false sensation caused by the drugs.

    Also, I don't believe there is a bottom to the rabbit hole... It goes on forever
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    I think memories are best formed from coherent associations put in a meaningful context, and that these extraordinary states of consciousness lend themselves extremely poorly for any of those requisites of proper and long-term remembrance.

    Seems very hard to say: I don't know how delusional nitrous oxide insights are, whether they make sense merely by the virtue of lacking proper critical thinking... or whether there is something to them - don't know about the key to life, but at least by Earth standards... and just impossible to put into context or connect to any sober frame of reference. The mystical frame of reference just doesn't have much at all to do with that.

    Dissociatives or GABA modulators messing with cognition or memory surely won't help, but maybe I would also not expect any coherent thought to form when so impaired... and serotonergic psychedelics can still pose these problems while having no clear pharmacological reason to impair cognition or memory, and also some of these profound experiences don't at least *feel* so out of it. I know that feeling of just being blurred into fucking oblivion. The feels say something not way off, but the thoughts say hardly anything at all.

    Another possibility is perhaps that something goes wrong with carrying short-term memory into long-term memory. Possibly that doesn't take full-on disruption of cognition and memory but just a disruption of coherence of this kind of processing which is different from memory formation an sich.
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    I think what Solipsis says above chimes with me. Even with LSD25 and countless experiences over many years (40) - some fairly low dose and not confusing by any means, I can never really bring back with any tangibility the memories of what seemed during the trip to be very clear and strong feelings and imagery. But when I'm back in there there's a very strong feeling of deja vu right from the onset. I think the OP is spot on with the 'state-dependent' idea. For me the benefit of this is that I have never tired of the psychedelic experience and hope I will always be drawn back to experience the beauty, despite the the strong apprehension that often accompanies the trip for short periods.
    Last edited by EntheoDjinn; 12-01-2017 at 00:59.
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    #7
    Kaleida, thank you for your comments. I'm very grateful for your input as you've hit the nail on the head. I too have been thinking similar things, especially as I've been integrating previous experiences. I've realised that my trips have pointed to what in me that needs cultivating. And really the change comes from inner work and personal action in daily life.

    I think there is still a part of me that wants a 'perfect' experience, which I feel that I had, but which can't remember. Sometimes I will read a trip report which contained such clear and confident descriptions of what happened, of the varied aspects of a mystical state (such as becoming one with the universe), and I guess my psychedelic or spiritualised ego will think, 'I want that experience as well!' And then I might start obsessively analysing my last experience to see if I did in fact experience this.

    This is probably a fruitless thing to do, and reflects more my overthinking nature, than healthy integration. So it's with a kind of irony that DMT showed me what it's like to be free from ego, for me to then involve the experience in the ego's game. I can see that there is work to be done!
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    MDPV_Psychosis, you're totally right! The DMT revelatory flash is exactly like the one experienced on nitrous. In fact, I've posted here before about experiences with nitrous (when combined with MDMA and ketamine) that were uncannily close to the DMT flash, leaving me at the end going 'What the fuck!' just like DMT does. Very interesting. You're right, it makes complete sense in that moment, and then you have no idea what you're talking about. It is like an intense de ja vu experience.

    I did also post these questions on /r/DMT, and interestingly someone pointed out whether it's possible that you could know something unique only in a moment, and then forget it. It's possible, but of course, there's no way to verify it unless you actually come back and say what it was. And then that kind of falsifies the whole premise - that you can only remember it in the moment. Ah, what a rabbit hole I have dug myself into
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    Deep psychedelic trips have a way of being ungraspable, especially ones like DMT which are such a quick and chaotic flash, and so abstract. I can only ever bring back the essence of my peak experiences, and over time I learn concrete lessons from them as I integrate the experiences, but I can't remember exactly what they were like. It's just the way it is.
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    #10
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    It's kinda like the thought experiment "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear does it make a sound?"

    If somebody experiences a singular moment of understanding of something but can not remember afterwards, then did they actually truley experience it? Did they truly understand? Does it even matter since they will never fully recollect the experience?

    If God offered to tell you the secret of life and the universe but he would make you forget what he said momentarily afterwards then would you listen? For a brief moment you'd have the answers but why bother if you won't be able to remember? What good does it do to have an experience of you cannot remember the experience?
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Solipsis View Post
    I think memories are best formed from coherent associations put in a meaningful context, and that these extraordinary states of consciousness lend themselves extremely poorly for any of those requisites of proper and long-term remembrance.
    Interesting notion. The DMT experience is so inconsistent to what we do in day to day reality the mind can't form anything to relate it to. I like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solipsis View Post
    Another possibility is perhaps that something goes wrong with carrying short-term memory into long-term memory. Possibly that doesn't take full-on disruption of cognition and memory but just a disruption of coherence of this kind of processing which is different from memory formation an sich.
    It does seem like I can remember a lot more minutes coming out of it than I can the next day. So this is another good possible explanation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solipsis View Post
    I think memories are best formed from coherent associations put in a meaningful context, and that these extraordinary states of consciousness lend themselves extremely poorly for any of those requisites of proper and long-term remembrance.
    I agree with this. A psychedelic experience is a way of experiencing things that is very different from ordinary experience. You can remember certain things you experience during a trip, but the nature of the trip itself is lost when it's over. To know what it's like to be tripping is to be tripping. You can't fully remember what it's like to have altered though patterns when you are sober. You just remember the emotions and sensory effects you felt.
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    Its such a sensory and sub-verbal experience, there really isn't language in which to frame and encode the memory. When you smoke it again (for me, soemtimes even just the smell) is enough to remind you of every DMT experience you've ever had. I can only vaguely remember the physical sensations and some of the visuals from my DMT experiences. Most of it was lost once the drug wore off.
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    #14
    swllow, it's the same for me, except when I get really stoned I get pretty vivid snapshots or short mental gifs of hyperspace :P I cannot say the same for my body/ego dissolution experience.

    Do you find that when you smoke a small amount of DMT you can remember? Or do you mean, when you enter hyperspace again, you can remember previous trips?
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    Just merged in some replies from your identical thread in Trip Reports, and closed that one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cj187 View Post
    I agree with this. A psychedelic experience is a way of experiencing things that is very different from ordinary experience. You can remember certain things you experience during a trip, but the nature of the trip itself is lost when it's over. To know what it's like to be tripping is to be tripping. You can't fully remember what it's like to have altered though patterns when you are sober. You just remember the emotions and sensory effects you felt.
    I think so, even setting-based tolerance could come into this idea: perspective can be more powerful than the contents of the trip and you would expect that to come from either a particular setting or having a very sensitive mindset for some reason. Remembering the fact that you experienced something during a trip is imo not the treasure, but how it astounded you is much more so. That same kind of magic like a special moment shared, or an atmosphere of some place. (I am lucky to work in a place that many people say is magical in this way). It's hard to explain how something can be deeply touching, not talking about something "emotion TV" can achieve, but something extraordinary, novel. The only way the place I work is able to keep up that novelty is because it is a hotspot of artists.

    If I look at DMT trips, actually for a psychedelic it leaves me feeling quite like my own normal self in a way, especially compared to how extreme the trips can be in total! But what my perspective goes through is incredible, it gets warped along with the morphing projections from the heavily stimulated imagination. I tend to feel so captivated that I feel myself becoming irrelevant in light of it. I wonder about the comparisons to an infant's perspective. Even more than is already true for other psychedelics, it seems like that ego-less boundless blank slate state is child-like and looking at descriptions and DMT art, there seems to be a preference for very toy-like themes.

    It's a good point that you just remember the emotions and sensory effects you felt, but considering how memory works you mostly tell yourself the 'facts' and reflections on it so it's more like how you eventually responded and thought about what you felt at the time. The best we have is a reflection of a reflection.

    Another argument for DMT being exceptionally strong at all this is that in my experience there isn't much preparing for a DMT trip even if you have done it before. Probably very habitual DMT smokers do pick up trends made into 'routines', to some extent there are possibilities for preparation, but I'd say they are 'tricks' to maximize the ability to deal with it and make the most out of a trip, not to actually prepare by simulating it mentally.

    The best DMT trip i had, probably, is not really the craziest one but when I meditated for half an hour before blasting off and approached the whole thing ritualistically. I am a pretty skeptical person and used to reject rituals as being useless traditions, but around that time I learned that rituals are ways of programming meaning into our minds in particular ways, perspective is a very powerful component in this. I think it is a way to prime your perspective before something happens so that you are persuaded to give it a certain meaning.
    When I gave the DMT trip that kind of attention before it happened and kept meditating when I smoked it while my then-girlfriend was watching, unlike most other times I was not frenzied by the insane chaos and intensity as if being shot out of a cosmic cannon. It became natural to just maintain that focus.

    With the absolute worst preparation, still having things on your mind right when you smoke DMT, in my experience leads to a monstrosity formed by the things I have on my mind. Extemporaneity of mental content, which is heavily connected with improvisation and unsurprisingly depends on imagination. All kinds of associations and fantasies fired upon it and operations performed on it.

    Extemporaneous things are fleeting, ephemeral like piano improvisations that always come when I am not trying to intentionally record them. Partially it also means outside of time, just like dreams which do not seem to operate within our normal sense of time and are also typically hard to remember. I don't know what is so exceptional about the DMT state of mind even for psychedelic standards, but it's not a mode that is easily recorded no.

    I don't know if or when I will do DMT again, I am not drawn to it and feel it has given me much already. Would be curious about red jungle spice. But anyway, I always have great apprehension about it. Even if you consider dreams harmless it's no small thing to choose to go through one of the most intense dreams there are. Just listen to your gut instinct and you should know if curiosity or another type of wondering wins out.
    Last edited by Solipsis; 13-01-2017 at 00:58.
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    #17
    One of the precepts of 'state-dependent memory, learning and behaviour' as a psychological conceptualisation is that memories are encoded in the tissues of the body and depending on the state you are in can sometimes only be accessed when you are experiencing that or a similar state. Modulating stress hormones are thought to play a significant part in this. There is no doubt that some aspects of the DMT experience are traumatic. However just because the experience is not available to the intellect by an act of will does not mean it is not available to us in some other subtle way. It may then of course be determining some aspects of our non-tripping experience - hopefully in a positive way. In fact this is probably why psychedelics are so well liked by some folks - there is a subtle evolution and development of our psyches. The thing therefore, as has been pointed out by numerous posters above, is not to chase the elusive insights, but to pay attention to our awareness and let the subtle healing processes or evolving work away quietly in the background. You don't remember what it feels like for your body to knit the tissues together after a cut (although you may feel some sensation of nerves repairing) however it happens unfailingly in a healthy person.

    I once saw it written that it's not what you do in the trip, but it's what you do in-between that's important. That is real living.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EntheoDjinn View Post
    One of the precepts of 'state-dependent memory, learning and behaviour' as a psychological conceptualisation is that memories are encoded in the tissues of the body and depending on the state you are in can sometimes only be accessed when you are experiencing that or a similar state. Modulating stress hormones are thought to play a significant part in this. There is no doubt that some aspects of the DMT experience are traumatic. However just because the experience is not available to the intellect by an act of will does not mean it is not available to us in some other subtle way.
    There are ways to train recollection of dreams, maybe it would be similar to that. But other than remembering a part of a dream by "deja vu" or flashback style association I've never really gained better access to them.

    It may then of course be determining some aspects of our non-tripping experience - hopefully in a positive way. In fact this is probably why psychedelics are so well liked by some folks - there is a subtle evolution and development of our psyches. The thing therefore, as has been pointed out by numerous posters above, is not to chase the elusive insights, but to pay attention to our awareness and let the subtle healing processes or evolving work away quietly in the background. You don't remember what it feels like for your body to knit the tissues together after a cut (although you may feel some sensation of nerves repairing) however it happens unfailingly in a healthy person.
    Yeah I think that is important. DMT trips tend to give me partially fantasy and imagination tapestries and and on the other hand something that I am very much due for like a profound cosmic/existential consolation after the loss of a young dearly beloved one.

    I once saw it written that it's not what you do in the trip, but it's what you do in-between that's important. That is real living.
    I don't see how I ever thought differently. Psychedelic trips are the epitome of what you have lived through, so without living your life, the trip certainly isn't quite as grand.
    Something that I forgot to bring up before: trips tend to get dull if you don't have some proper living in between them. I forgot how that amounts to a piece of the DMT-memory puzzle here though... maybe thinking about DMT is making me demented :')
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    Funny, I don't recall being the one to start this thread....

    Quote Originally Posted by firdous e bareen View Post
    Kaleida, thank you for your comments. I'm very grateful for your input as you've hit the nail on the head. I too have been thinking similar things, especially as I've been integrating previous experiences. I've realised that my trips have pointed to what in me that needs cultivating. And really the change comes from inner work and personal action in daily life.

    I think there is still a part of me that wants a 'perfect' experience, which I feel that I had, but which can't remember. Sometimes I will read a trip report which contained such clear and confident descriptions of what happened, of the varied aspects of a mystical state (such as becoming one with the universe), and I guess my psychedelic or spiritualised ego will think, 'I want that experience as well!' And then I might start obsessively analysing my last experience to see if I did in fact experience this.

    This is probably a fruitless thing to do, and reflects more my overthinking nature, than healthy integration. So it's with a kind of irony that DMT showed me what it's like to be free from ego, for me to then involve the experience in the ego's game. I can see that there is work to be done!
    Absolutely, I'm glad you can relate.

    I can also totally relate to you wanting a "perfect" trip and being influenced by extremely detailed trip reports. All I can really say about that is that I just came to understand, which is definitely different from just being told by others, that all trips are different for all people, and there is no one perfect trip to have. What's really best to do I think is just accept the way psychedelics are for you, and learn to make the most of that the way it already is. And, strangely, by doing so I also feel that many find that those qualities they felt their trips were lacking were just waiting for them beneath the surface all along....

    You should keep in mind too that even though "the answer" may remain firmly out of your grasp, the other, less ineffable aspects of the experience will still remain with you more and more as you work with that state-dependent memory. You may not be able to recall exactly what makes your transcendental experiences feel exactly so transcendental in the moment, but once you've been there enough you'll surely at least be able to put words to it quite a bit better. I believe that this is one of the many factors that contributes to those incredibly detailed trip reports as well, as the reports that are the most well written often also come from people who have been around the block a good few times with these dramatic states of consciousness.

    You may have more work to be done, but you're definitely on your way, and you've clearly got a good head on your shoulders since you're concerned with things like integration and asking questions about your experiences. I'm sure that you will find your way and get to a point where you are satisfied with the experiences you've had, as many of us eventually do.
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    Didn't you use some trick: to copy an unrelated earlier post of yourself into the thread and completely edit it just to have the very earliest timestamp as a way to announce something from the top of the thread? I thought that was pretty clever.
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    I certainly did not, but I will accept the compliment anyhow, haha. I think it's just an artifact from Xorkoth merging an earlier identical thread from Trip Reports, but minus the identical opening post.
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    Ah yeah that was it, didn't notice that Kaleida's post is first now. I'll fix that...
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Solipsis View Post
    I think memories are best formed from coherent associations put in a meaningful context, and that these extraordinary states of consciousness lend themselves extremely poorly for any of those requisites of proper and long-term remembrance.

    Seems very hard to say: I don't know how delusional nitrous oxide insights are, whether they make sense merely by the virtue of lacking proper critical thinking... or whether there is something to them - don't know about the key to life, but at least by Earth standards... and just impossible to put into context or connect to any sober frame of reference. The mystical frame of reference just doesn't have much at all to do with that.

    Dissociatives or GABA modulators messing with cognition or memory surely won't help, but maybe I would also not expect any coherent thought to form when so impaired... and serotonergic psychedelics can still pose these problems while having no clear pharmacological reason to impair cognition or memory, and also some of these profound experiences don't at least *feel* so out of it. I know that feeling of just being blurred into fucking oblivion. The feels say something not way off, but the thoughts say hardly anything at all.

    Another possibility is perhaps that something goes wrong with carrying short-term memory into long-term memory. Possibly that doesn't take full-on disruption of cognition and memory but just a disruption of coherence of this kind of processing which is different from memory formation an sich.
    Interesting post and well put. Ineffable is the word very commonly associated with some of these profound states via DMT or LSD or whatever - not being communicable through the medium of words or description but it is clear to some degree they are un-rememberable - that is not being communicable to the self via internal vocabulary.
    Oft there is some dislodging of the ego structure; maybe less self to directly tie these information sets to - it strikes me as an animal memory is a useful aid to survival; at a basic level where to find food (re live a virtual journey), what danger to avoid and so on. These states of other processing are useful in someway but not directly tied to these needs, perhaps even separated. I am thinking of dream which if recalled at all is very hazy and the total essence gone - only last night I though of an amazing tune, on waking for the toilet some fragment was left; I hadnít outdone JS Bach, it was mundane. In the disordered world of dream or psychedelia ordinarily separate things can cross - a sense of awe and brilliance with a pretty naff tune - admittedly a lot of peoples taste in music suggest they do this in normal waking hours but you know what I meanÖor of course music is actually on the beginning of this scale of altered state. As to Insights validity - sometimes they are and sometimes might seem so by similar linkage to my music example - they are still rewarding in the moment and it might be that this disordered connecting can create really valid useful information as long as you have some ability to process out the more invalid, more random bits. I guess it is instructive to know where people are at who are drown by this noise but really it is useful to be able to quickly snap out of dream, disregarding memory storage time/space and drop into processing useful to an autonomous physical being. So basically I suspect a lot of these states (which can seem to have extraordinary amounts going on at once rather than linear links) are rather incompatible with being remembered.
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