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Thread: Could i have a leaky blood-brain barrier?

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    Could i have a leaky blood-brain barrier? 
    #1
    I think i might have weak/leaky blood-brain barrier.

    I think i do because of two things.

    First thing is my reaction to loperamide. I feel effects from it at low doses and even without omeprazole. I wrote a "trip report" about that, you can read it HERE
    I also experienced weak but still pretty noticeable opioid withdrawal from taking 4-10mgs of loperamide daily for two weeks. It was 6-8 mgs a day mostly. After stopping it, i had RLS, was unable to sleep at night and felt pretty shitty for like a week.

    The second thing is my reaction to cetirizine. It makes me pretty drowsy, especially in the morning if i take it in the afternoon the day before. It also makes me feel calmer and more mentally stable. If i take cetirizine my OCD gets weaker or completely disappears for like 12 hours or more. I used to experiment with cetirizine, taking up to 40 miligrams, and it was definitely psychoactive. I felt calmer and generally more stable, OCD was gone, it felt drowsy but nice. Cetirizine is anxiolytic even at a 10mg dose for me. I'm generally anxious, depressed, mentally unstable person when i don't take anything, so i notice those things and know for sure it can't be placebo effect. I used to take cetirizine when i was a child because i have seasonal allergies, and it worked like i described. I didn't know what cetirizine even is back then, so there wasn't any anticipation.

    Is this enough to tell if my BBB is weaker than average?

    Also, if my BBB is leaky, could GABA supplement make me feel good? Since it normally doesn't cross BBB enough to be psychoactive but might do so in people with leaky barrier?
    Last edited by Aprophenea; 16-05-2018 at 12:34.
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    #2
    Bluelight Crew Solipsis's Avatar
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    GABA is active (maybe hard to tell how central it is cause yeah it's passing the BBB is tightly regulated), it just has a very short duration of effects which for some apparently isn't even significant.. A bit similar to beta-PEA in that respect, apart from them having very different effects.

    Being sensitive to cetirizine isn't that special either.. it is an active metabolite of hydroxyzine which yeah has plenty effects although not really anticholinergic and I haven't heard you mention that.

    People with psychiatric disorders which include an anxious component sometimes take broad spectrum sedatives.. I guess antihistamines including for sleep is an example, but also antipsychotics for autism spectrum disorders. It's a pretty rough solution but yes the drowsiness can be welcome compared to getting overstimulated or tweaky all the time.

    IDK about the loperamide, it's not something I have gone into deeply as curious as it is.. I think since it still exerts peripheral effects it can be somewhat easy to mistake for central effects? That is, especially if you are focusing on any noticeable effects whatsoever apart from anti-diarrhea... but a different story compared to a real opioid habit and trying to patch the holes with shit like loperamide. I'm pretty sure it's toxic to take higher or frequent doses of.. also yeah I am not surprised you can get withdrawal effects from taking it a while, but they are probably [mostly] peripheral just like its effects are. Why wouldn't you get "peripheral withdrawals"?

    All in all I am not hearing anything that tells me we need to worry about your BBB.

    Wouldn't you get headaches and all sorts of fucked up shit all the time from a leaky BBB?

    IIRC supposedly massive amounts of MDMA can make the BBB more permeable.. I've done acute massive amounts of it and worried about my BBB at some point.

    No offense, I mean it's not impossible, but it sounds like it's your OCD talking.
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    #3
    "so i notice those things and know for sure it can't be placebo effect."

    How would you "for sure" know its not placebo? The placebo effect is very powerful, and it doesn't go away even when people know they are taking a placebo.
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    #4
    Bluelight Crew CFC's Avatar
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    I guess anyone could have a slightly 'leaky' BBB, but not too much or you'd likely end up with something like Alzheimers, dementia or Huntington's pretty quickly.

    Studies from the 1950s-70s did appear to show GABA couldn't cross the BBB, but more recent ones do suggest small amounts can pass. In vivo studies have also demonstrated its efficacy for counteracting things like stimulant excitation. The BBB doesn't appear to be a uniform barrier across all parts of the CNS anyway, which may account for varying CNS outcomes of various drugs.

    Anyway, I was just posting to direct you to an article that Self-hacked have on the subject, which you may enjoy reading and which is reasonably well researched.
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    #5
    Solipsis, OCD is talking about lots of creepy shit but this wouldn't creep me out I thought my BBB might be just a little more permeable for funny things that i take and that maybe GABA would be good to buy if i knew my BBB is weaker than normal But i know that severely leaky BBB is a bad thing to have and not funny in any way.

    The effects from loperamide were fully psychological shit, not just physical though. Like worse mental shit than my sober mental shit.

    And thanks for your response. And yeah maybe my BBB isn't weaker than average, idk. Most probably isn't. I don't get headaches, but food sedates me, i don't usually eat any food until i'm home from school because i have some stomach issues and also get very sedated after eating more than a little snack. But thats not related to bbb, just gastrointestinal thing i guess.

    CFC
    , that a nice article, thanks. By the way i had a streptococcus and staphylococcus infection when i was a child. I think they caused the OCD thing, it's a phenomenon called PANDAS. Also at least one of them bugs was the kind that somehow don't go away ever, so its still inside me in some form, its called golden staph ( i think staph was the golden kind, there's golden strept too, might have both, don't know for sure). Maybe those could make BBB weaker too if i had it slightly weaker, there's something about bacterial infection.

    I read about l-arginine making GABA more active in the brain, also L-lysine. I also read that it is a little active on its own, but not worthwile. Don't wannna spend cash on a supplement that is known to not work and be a waste of cash, but i always thought that maybe it is possible to make it work, or maybe it would work on me I'm generally interested in trying OTC stuff because if it works its available cheaply and possibly forever

    Just feeling calm and content is euphoric for me, of course classic opioids are the best shit for that, but i enjoy weaker stuff too. And i really enjoy trying meds/herbs/supplements i never tried and "researching" what combinations do what Its like my hobby or something
    Last edited by Aprophenea; 16-05-2018 at 14:01.
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    #6
    Bluelight Crew CFC's Avatar
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    It depends what you mean by 'worthwhile'. By itself, GABA can increase the bedtime spike in growth hormone by 400-500% at 3g (though it can cause a very unpleasant whole body tingling/suffocating sensation like beta-alanine at that dose). I also find it effective as a sleep aid, especially if I've been using stimulants, and that may also involve its GH potentiation effect. I've posted a little about it before here and here.
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    #7
    CFC, would you describe its effect as anxiolytic or mentally relaxing or pleasant in any way? Or is it just 100% physical sedation? of course i don't expect it to be anything like phenibut or benzos or something, but is there at least some hint of "classic gabaergics" feeling?
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Aprophenea View Post
    pretty shitty for like a week.
    Anyone else get a chuckle from this or am I the only immature one here? Lol.

    -PA
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    #9
    lol
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Aprophenea View Post
    I think i might have weak/leaky blood-brain barrier.

    I think i do because of two things.

    First thing is my reaction to loperamide. I feel effects from it at low doses and even without omeprazole. I wrote a "trip report" about that, you can read it HERE
    I also experienced weak but still pretty noticeable opioid withdrawal from taking 4-10mgs of loperamide daily for two weeks. It was 6-8 mgs a day mostly. After stopping it, i had RLS, was unable to sleep at night and felt pretty shitty for like a week.

    The second thing is my reaction to cetirizine. It makes me pretty drowsy, especially in the morning if i take it in the afternoon the day before. It also makes me feel calmer and more mentally stable. If i take cetirizine my OCD gets weaker or completely disappears for like 12 hours or more. I used to experiment with cetirizine, taking up to 40 miligrams, and it was definitely psychoactive. I felt calmer and generally more stable, OCD was gone, it felt drowsy but nice. Cetirizine is anxiolytic even at a 10mg dose for me. I'm generally anxious, depressed, mentally unstable person when i don't take anything, so i notice those things and know for sure it can't be placebo effect. I used to take cetirizine when i was a child because i have seasonal allergies, and it worked like i described. I didn't know what cetirizine even is back then, so there wasn't any anticipation.

    Is this enough to tell if my BBB is weaker than average?

    Also, if my BBB is leaky, could GABA supplement make me feel good? Since it normally doesn't cross BBB enough to be psychoactive but might do so in people with leaky barrier?
    1) There are a number of different fluid-brain barriers through which substances can penetrate the brain.
    2) If your BBB is in a persistent highly permeable state, then your neuroimmune system is completely borked and it's surprising that you're still alive despite that. You should probably reconsider your hypothesis about the cause of what you've described.
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    #11
    Bluelight Crew CFC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aprophenea View Post
    CFC, would you describe its effect as anxiolytic or mentally relaxing or pleasant in any way? Or is it just 100% physical sedation? of course i don't expect it to be anything like phenibut or benzos or something, but is there at least some hint of "classic gabaergics" feeling?
    Not really, it has no recreational potential at all ime.
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