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    Is MDMA really the most powerful empathogen? 
    #1
    All the alternatives under the empathogenic class seem to always be a step below molly, if not 10 steps below from everything I read.
    Anyone have stories to the contrary?
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    #2
    Bluelighter F.U.B.A.R.'s Avatar
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    MDMA certainly seems to be the 'yardstick' by which other empathogens are measured. However, it depends upon the quality of your 'molly'. I'm sure you're aware that there are many substandard synths of MDMA doing the rounds these days, even if they test as 'pure'.

    Even the classic hallucinogens such as LSD and psilocybin can exhibit empathogenic qualities far superior to MDMA, but the problem with them is that mindset and setting are much more important in achieving such an experience.

    The good thing about MDMA is that you are virtually guaranteed a good experience (though the many threads in this forum to the contrary may negate that claim).
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    It depends on what you want from an empathogen, really. It's certainly the classic. Like mother empathogen.
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    I would say that 6-APB is on par with MDMA when it comes to empathogenic effects although it is a bit more trippy.

    It is although different in a quality which empathogenic effects come as with pure MDMA you seem to feel connectedness with everyone but 6-APB gives you a bit more self-centered euphoria that also goes towards the people you actually love and enhances those feelings that are already there.

    On a sidenote I would say that sexual feelings are more pronounced with 6-APB and MDMA is more "platonic" in a way you'll find cuddling to be the best way to be with someone while on MDMA but with 6-APB you'll enjoy doing more HC stuff.
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    #5
    I've had rolls that equalled or surpassed mdma with MDA and 5-MAPB.

    MDMA is definitely the standard by which all others are compared but there are other drugs that can do it similar but different.

    I'd say I've never opened up so hard on MDMA where I've said things I later regret (aka opening up TOO much) but have on 5-MAPB and MDA.

    With combining these three drugs I've gotten to levels that none of them could reach alone. That's where the future is of empathogenic bliss in my opinion, finding the perfect combos of empathogens.

    If all I had though was 5-MAPB and MDA at my disposal I'd be bummed but I'd get by..

    My first experience though with 5-MAPB was insane and was like having my "first roll" all over again. I've never danced like I danced that night, and the best part is that I was peaking hard for 6-7hrs at least..

    I'm sad the RC scene is dead in the U.K. It brought about a lot of shit drugs but also a few gems that we may not have found out about otherwise. The APB class being one, most would argue that with a good batch they all are pretty brilliant besides the ethyl analogs.

    MDMA is a lot more intense and rushy than 5-MAPB but is also wavy and shorter acting (4-6hrs) with a more abrupt drop off. 5-MAPB isn't as intense but very steady in its action and much longer acting (8-10hrs) with a smooth drop off that you feel into the next day. MDA is the most intense comeup and peak but can vary from a long dwindling comedown like 5-MAPB to a comedown more abrupt than mdma (4-8hrs, batch variation is more a problem with MDA than MDMA). MDMA is purely social/dancing for me, MDA purely for very small gatherings, and 5-mapb can do either fairly well.

    This is why mixing them is great because they all compliment each other's weak spots.

    -GC
    Last edited by G_Chem; 08-07-2018 at 18:57.
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    #6
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    What do you mean powerful?


    The potency of a drug will depend mainly on the dose. In this sense MDMA is not the most powerful empathogen.

    The transcendence of an experience does not only depend on the medication, there are many other factors involved of great importance. In this sense MDMA does not have to be the most powerful empatogen.

    On the contrary MDMA is the most widely used empatogen around the world. There is a lot of literature on MDMA, you can find a lot of information on the web. It is undoubtedly an icon of the drug culture.


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    Mescaline, 6-APBD, and MDA are all better to me but it will come to down to personal preference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Help?!?! View Post
    Mescaline, 6-APBD, and MDA are all better to me but it will come to down to personal preference.
    Would you classify Mescaline as an empatogen? This has been your experience?


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    #9
    There is always AMT, too. AMT helped me, profoundly, to reach such a state as I could use to catalyze my own self-therapy and eventual recovery from PTSD, when I used it along with low dose MXE and other NMDA antagonists with it to dampen instinctive recoiling in a fight or flight response.

    AMT is a bona-fide full-bodied entactogen, and a true card-carrying 5HT2a receptor agonist psychedelic, and it can be tremendously powerful used for the right reasons, a real healer's tool for any urban shaman of the west to keep in his medicine bag. It certainly did me a world of good.
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    #10
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    There so many glowing reports about aMT as psychedelic and entactogen. But I seem to be part of the people that experience none of the good and many of the bad effects. Still have a bag lying around.

    Didn't dare going up to 80/ 100mg as it always gave me a shitty experience. Devoid of any visuals or mindfuck but almost like psylocybine mushroom's. And it's duration ensured many hours of dicomfort. The combination with a downer or NMDA antagonist might work to bad those days rc's were not avaiable like the last years. I think it would make a world of difference to the trip killing some of the anxiety.
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Doclad View Post
    What do you mean powerful?
    Which provides the strongest feeling of empathy. I disagree about the dosage. Phenibut is supposed to have empathogenic effects but I felt nothing at low, moderate or heavy doses, just a bit dizziness and insomnia. That's likely because lovey effects are a coincidental side effect of a drug whose primary purpose is something else. MDMA is basically an amphetamine with empathogenic effects. I've tried hard to look for a pure one but it seems no such thing exists. There actually is an analog completely devoid of speedy effects but oddly enough the feelings of love and empathy were far less than MDMA, so I'm beginning to think the amphetamine speediness is necessary to force the brain into such a stage.

    Guys, let's remember I'm talking only about the empathogenic effects. Trippier =/= more powerful. I don't care for psychedelic effects.

    Limpet_Chicken , thanks for mentioning AMT, that one's new. But from what I understand, you're just saying it's more trippy?
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    #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inds View Post
    Which provides the strongest feeling of empathy. I disagree about the dosage. Phenibut is supposed to have empathogenic effects but I felt nothing at low, moderate or heavy doses, just a bit dizziness and insomnia. That's likely because lovey effects are a coincidental side effect of a drug whose primary purpose is something else. MDMA is basically an amphetamine with empathogenic effects. I've tried hard to look for a pure one but it seems no such thing exists. There actually is an analog completely devoid of speedy effects but oddly enough the feelings of love and empathy were far less than MDMA, so I'm beginning to think the amphetamine speediness is necessary to force the brain into such a stage.
    I return to my previous answer.


    There is no medication that provides "the greatest feeling of empathy" because we can not ignore other factors that are as important as the drug itself.

    We can measure the potency of a drug according to the affinity it has for the respective receptors, and only in this case would we speak of "greater power".
    Your question does not make sense if we look at it from an objective point of view. Obviously, you will receive answers because each user has had different experiences with different empatogens and each one has their favorite.

    I have had good and bad experiences with MDMA due to different settings, the same with MDA and 6-Apb. It is impossible to determine which is more "powerful or better" because each experience has offered me different things and can not be measured vertically (from top to bottom, better or worse ...).
    Therefore ... "MDMA is the most powerful empatogen?" In comparison to what? ... from what perspective do you want to measure it? ...
    I just want to emphasize that there is not one empatogen more powerful than another (except when we take as a reference pharmacological data and this does not guarantee that it offers a better experience).

    This applies to other classes of drugs. For example ... is LSD the most powerful psychedelic? Well, has it been for you? So, well, here is your most powerful psychedelic. We can not reach a consensus because each one is different.
    A high dose of 2C-E may be more powerful than an average dose of LSD or vice versa. Even with a low dose and a favorable environment we can have a powerful and transcendent experience.

    I have not tried phenibut, but I doubt very much that it can be classified in the same category as MDxx.


    DocLad
    Last edited by Doclad; 10-07-2018 at 23:47.
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    #13
    @Doc- I know you didn't ask me but I consider Mescaline and Mescaline containing cacti more empathogenic than a traditional psychedelic.

    It does depend on the form and cacti used however. San Pedro is very empathogenic whereas Bridgesii was not as much for me.. Cacti tea is more empathogenic than a full spectrum A/B extract. It all depends, but 9 times out of 10 it's more empathogen than psychedelic for me.

    One of my greatest rolls ever involved mdma and San Pedro and I don't think I would have reached that level without the Pedro. I've got the trip report elsewhere online, I don't think I've ever had an experience of any substance impact the way that experience did.

    Coincidentally that experience was also 3 days after Shulgins death and it was held somewhat in his honor. Life changing..

    As for phenibut, it's empathogenic in the same way alcohol or GHB is.. I consider them all to have empathy associated with em, but I still wouldn't consider them empathogens. It seems GABA-B drugs tend to be more empathy inducing though (ghb and phenibut) and many mdma users love to mix them in when they roll. I'm actually going to be trying phenibut and mdma in a few weeks so I'll report back.

    My last experience with phenibut was pretty good actually and with 7.5mg d-amphetamine and some caffeine mixed it was somewhat akin to a roll, but mainly the social aspect moreso than anything.

    -GC
    Last edited by G_Chem; 10-07-2018 at 21:41.
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    #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by G_Chem View Post
    @Doc- I know you didn't ask me but I consider Mescaline and Mescaline containing cacti more empathogenic than a traditional psychedelic.

    It does depend on the form and cacti used however. San Pedro is very empathogenic whereas Bridgesii was not as much for me.. Cacti tea is more empathogenic than a full spectrum A/B extract. It all depends, but 9 times out of 10 it's more empathogen than psychedelic for me.

    One of my greatest rolls ever involved mdma and San Pedro and I don't think I would have reached that level without the Pedro. I've got the trip report elsewhere online, I don't think I've ever had an experience of any substance impact the way that experience did.

    Coincidentally that experience was also 3 days after Shulgins death and it was held somewhat in his honor. Life changing..

    As for phenibut, it's empathogenic in the same way alcohol or GHB is.. I consider them all to have empathy associated with em, but I still wouldn't consider them empathogens. It seems GABA-B drugs tend to be more empathy inducing though (ghb and phenibut) and many mdma users love to mix them in when they roll. I'm actually going to be trying phenibut and mdma in a few weeks so I'll report back.

    My last experience with phenibut was pretty good actually and with 7.5mg d-amphetamine and some caffeine mixed it was somewhat akin to a roll, but mainly the social aspect moreso than anything.

    -GC
    Hello G_Chem.


    Well, the definition of empatogen/entactogen is not closed, although many of us agree that these are monoamine releasing agents (among other things).
    Being frank, I like the open definition more, which would be something like substances able to open/show the emotions of people.

    I'm very curious about Mescaline, in fact I have 1g of pure Mescaline HCl in the freezer. I had some San Pedro in my possession but unfortunately the extractions that I did did not work out as I expected(it is possible that my cactus were a sub-genre with little psychoactive).
    There are many people who say that Mescaline is a substance that provides empathetic as well as psychedelic experiences, there is no doubt that it is an advantage to see expanded the range of possible positive effects.

    Last weekend I plugged in my rectum 30mg of 2c-c and I can say the same. Very smooth trip without challenges, but a very nice high body and emotional overture. Obviously there were also visual effects but they weren't important until I snorted (3x)20mg of Ketamine towards the end of the trip.
    It has been a great experience and I hope to have a detailed story for all of you during the next few days.


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    Last edited by Doclad; 10-07-2018 at 23:45.
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    #15
    ^^This is true, empathogen can mean different things to different people. Also GABA effecting drugs indirectly effect serotonin from my poor memory.

    As for the Mescaline, is it extracted or synthetic? Either way it's a beautiful substance, enjoy it and cherish it because it's not easy for even people in the know to get much. Dosage plays a role in its effects too, larger doses become more and more psychedelic but there is always that empathogenic effect in the background. Very jealous it's been awhile since I've had higher purity Mescaline.

    Also Mescaline empathy is different than MDXX empathy. It's more focused on Mother Nature than on other humans like mdma does. All the sudden you can relate to the flowers, the insects, the trees.. It's beautiful. And the afterglow can go on for months sometimes if done right.

    Although synthetic pure Mescaline is said to a bit cold and stimulating compared to extracted Mescaline or tea.

    -GC
    Last edited by G_Chem; 11-07-2018 at 17:32.
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    #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by G_Chem View Post
    ^^This is true, empathogen can mean different things to different people. Also GABA effecting drugs indirectly effect serotonin from my poor memory.

    As for the Mescaline, is it extracted or synthetic? Either way it's a beautiful substance, enjoy it and cherish it because it's not easy for even people in the know to get much. Dosage plays a role in its effects too, larger doses become more and more psychedelic but there is always that empathogenic effect in the background. Very jealous it's been awhile since I've had higher purity Mescaline.

    Also Mescaline empathy is different than MDXX empathy. It's more focused on Mother Nature than on other humans like mdma does. All the sudden you can relate to the flowers, the insects, the trees.. It's beautiful. And the afterglow can go on for months sometimes if done right.

    Although synthetic pure Mescaline is said to a bit cold and stimulating compared to extracted Mescaline or tea.

    -GC
    The extractions of the cacti containing Mescaline extract a great variety of other alkaloids besides Mescaline, although this being the most abundant and the main psychedelic. For this reason that the experiences with Synthetic Mescaline are different. Personally I prefer to take pure substances, for example I like DMT more than raw extractions of Mimosa or Acacia, the trip is cleaner and less confusing, although it is something very personal.

    I have 1g of Mescalina synthetic HCl.


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    #17
    Regarding AMT, I was trying to say that it qualifies as a pretty powerful entactogen/empathogen in its own right, easily as much so as MDMA, although its full-on psychedelic at the same time, I've found it ideal for both getting into a state suitable for psychological work on oneself via its entactogen side, and providing the insight and creative mindset to make best use of it thanks to its psychedelic effect.

    Can be a bit of a gutwrencher though, so its advisable to take something like buscopan (hyoscine butylbromide, its an anticholinergic, but due to its derivatization as a quaternary ammonium salt, doesn't pass the blood-brain barrier), or better still, ondansetron, a really effective antiemetic/antinauseant, but which ought to more specifically combat nausea from serotonin releaser/reuptake inhibitors due to its mode of action, as a 5HT3 receptor antagonist.
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Limpet_Chicken View Post
    Regarding AMT, I was trying to say that it qualifies as a pretty powerful entactogen/empathogen in its own right, easily as much so as MDMA, although its full-on psychedelic at the same time, I've found it ideal for both getting into a state suitable for psychological work on oneself via its entactogen side, and providing the insight and creative mindset to make best use of it thanks to its psychedelic effect.
    It seems psychedelic and empathogenic go hand-in-hand. All these drugs seem to be empathogenic but with loads of baggage. DocLad is right that this is highly subjective but we can objectively generalize when the differences are large, everybody agrees MDA is just a speedier version of MDMA. If consensus is hard to reach then that tells me that all these alternatives (6-APB, 5-MAPB etc.) do not significantly differ in effect. I guess MDMA is the standard empathogen.
    In response to your question of whether I consider LSD the most powerful psychedelic, I consider it the most powerful mindfuck I ever had. I would never go near it again, lmao.
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    #19
    Bluelighter F.U.B.A.R.'s Avatar
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    Can't see the attraction of AMT myself - though I've never gone above 80mg. Found it far too long lasting and not really worth the effort tbh.
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    #20
    From what I've read, MDA always sounded like a more psychedelic entactogen than MDMA, although admittedly, I've yet to break out the helional and go from oxime>beckmann>amide>isocyanate>amine, but everything I've read personally points to that being the case. AMT definitely has potential IMO though, its changed me for the better thats for sure, went from waking up screaming to whatever it is an NT could call someone who isn't one almost overnight, within a couple of trips. So after a couple of trips, it more or less totally helped me cure myself of PTSD. Still don't like to speak of what caused it, but it doesn't torment me nightly anymore.
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    #21
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    I think that AMT is one of those medications that you should plug into the rectum to take advantage of its effects without being crushed by bodyload. It would also reduce the length of the trip that can be strenuous.


    DocLad
    Last edited by Doclad; Yesterday at 01:37.
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    #22
    I used it intranasally most of the time, did experiment a bit with oral use, but the further away from either end of my intestines, the better. The stimulant push can get pretty intense though, especially with breakthrough doses, that for me, were around 100mg starting range.
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    #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limpet_Chicken View Post
    I used it intranasally most of the time, did experiment a bit with oral use, but the further away from either end of my intestines, the better. The stimulant push can get pretty intense though, especially with breakthrough doses, that for me, were around 100mg starting range.
    I read that AMT is not a good substance to snort. I suppose you have snorted AMT in the form of salt and not free base.
    I think rectally it's more powerful than snorted. 100mg is a very high dose.


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    #24
    No, it was the base I had, and it did sting, and smell, well, stittily indolic, I quite liked it for long hiking trips out to go out to the woods, find somewhere to do all that private introspection that was needed at the time, spend a fair part of the day foraging for a wild mushroom fryup, and then find somewhere decent to go take a nap where I'd not be disturbed, while it was peaking. Quite liked it at a fairly high dose, up to about ~150mg although despite its insanely speedy effects at a high dose, it seems to paradoxically become pretty strongly sedating and mongy, in a good way, although to the point where I ended up one time with some dog walker turning up in a stress, wondering if I was dead, suppose it wasn't his fault, didn't really plan on talking to anyone at the time, but I had just found that despite the speedy, amphetamine type push AMT is known for, that there really was nothing else for it but to go find somewhere comfortable, sit down for a bit, and that ended up with me falling asleep.

    Got lucky too, chose a spot that had parasol mushrooms fruiting in a decent quantity
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