Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 49

Thread: 4-AcO-DMT vs. Psilocin

  1. #1

    4-AcO-DMT vs. Psilocin

    are there actual differences? user reports seem to suggest that there are, but they both metabolize to psilocin... explanations?

    also, do all 4-ho tryptamines metabolize to the same chemical as their 4-aco counterparts?

  2. #2
    Bluelighter
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    drugpolicy.org/action
    Posts
    4,503
    Yes. The idea that there are no differences comes from what we now can be pretty sure is the inappropriate labeling of 4-AcO-DMT as a mere prodrug of psilocin (4-ho-DMT, which is what I think you're referring to when you say psilocybin or 4-po-DMT.) The 4-AcO form is almost certainly active on its own, as made evident by its immediate full-spectrum effects when administered intravenously (i.e. the user doesn't have to wait for body enzymes to deacetylate the 4-AcO-DMT before they start tripping heavily.) It may very well be that the 4-AcO-DMT ultimately gets converted into psilocin, but both the activity of 4-AcO-DMT on its own and the rate at which the theorized conversion occurs probably influence the subjective differences between it and 4-ho-DMT. It may be that 4-po-DMT has its own independent effects as well. In my opinion 4-AcO-DMT is indistinguishable from MUSHROOMS because, though I've had mushroom experiences that were distictly diffent from my experiences with 4-AcO-DMT, the range of varience in subjective effects of many different mushroom batches is sufficiently broad to comprise the effects of 4-AcO-DMT.

    [EDIT]: I've tried both 4-AcO-DMT and synthetic 4-ho-DMT and the latter is more manic, stimulating, and chaotic.
    Last edited by psood0nym; 26-02-2008 at 23:50.

  3. #3
    i have tried 4 aco dmt as well as 4 ho dmt.
    Unfortunately the 4 ho dmt was always consumed thru and by mushroom.
    Mushrooms have a mixture of chemicals do it is hard to compare the two,

    4 ho converts into a more stable 4 aco tryptamine. it requires a couple more mg than the 4 ho.

    I find synthetics to be alot different than natural substances. I prefer synthetic chemicals ober the natural though. We can clean up and alter chemicals ourselves improving natures mixture, or at least isolating one substance.

    The 4 aco dmt was mellow and very comforting. IT lasted 4 hours whereas i have had mushrooms trips go from 6-14 hours.

    I think they all convert into the same. Your nody is a like a glass flask doing chemistry.
    I read in TIHKAL that it converts into the same , but i think the answer was not definite. (?)

  4. #4
    Bluelighter trancedeviate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Lysergia
    Posts
    329
    I find it hard to believe that 4-aco-dmt is as brutal towards the ego as mushrooms are. I've done my fair share of mushrooms, 50-60 trips or somewhere in that neighborhood. I haven't tried 4-aco-dmt but I have read it has a very forgiving nature and its hard to really be annihilated in the same way that mushrooms do so well.

  5. #5
    mushrooms always have the chance of chaos wheras
    all synthetic shrooms analogs rarely or never give me chaotic or lost trips.
    4 aco has all the positive aspects that shrooms have , but just realxing and fun

  6. #6
    It turns into the same stuff... right? I mean with mushies you run a slight risk of hell, but otherwise...

  7. #7
    it appears that i'm not the only one confused about this!

  8. #8
    I've had the chance to take a lot of trips on 4 aco-dmt and it has become one of my favorites. Like it has been already said it can be a lot smoother and gentler than shrooms in a certain dosage range, but can become very heady and intense as you increase the dosage. The come up is usually very smooth, sedating, and without any nausea. The visuals are quite spectacular and remind me of a combination of shrooms and nn-dmt, although the visuals are definately more dmt like than shroom like. The duration for me varies widely depending on the dosage and can be anywhere from 4-7 hours. The trip ends abruptly for me, one second i'm trippin hard the next i'm completely sober and the trip is over. I really love this stuff, I'm glad I was able to stock up on this one.

  9. #9
    Ex-Bluelighter Gaian Planes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    ATL/asheville
    Posts
    10,288
    its not at all clear that shulgin's theory that 4-aco's are just prodrugs is at all accurate.

    stories of people IVing 4-aco-DMT and it being active almost immediately plus stories of people who have tried both 4-aco-dmt and synthetic 4-ho-dmt (me for one) and finding a difference subjectively between the two, would suggest that 4-aco-dmt is NOT a prodrug to 4-ho-dmt.

    The counter-theory is that 4-aco-dmt IS a prodrug it is just the case that the absorption rates drastically affect the subjective experience (I can buy that but you still have a story to tell about routes like smoking and IVing).

  10. #10
    Senior Moderator
    Psychedelic Drugs
    Trip Reports
    Philosophy and Spirituality
    The Dark Side
    Shadowmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nowhere
    Posts
    33,534
    I personally believe that Shulgin jumped the gun when he said that 4-AcO-tryptamines are just prodrugs that metabolize to 4-HO-tryptamines... he isn't god, and what he says might not always be true. I have tried 4-AcO-DMT and pure 4-HO-DMT pretty extensively, especially 4-AcO-DMT, as well as mushrooms themselves, and I can say with absolute certainty that I experience dramatically different effects from each, especially from 4-AcO-DMT. To me, the AcO feels like smoked n,n-DMT, but slower. The headspace is just plain different, as is the physical feeling. It consists of a high-frequency buzzing, whereas 4-HO-DMT and mushrooms do not.

    I have used a lot of psychedelics and I am definitely able to tell different substances apart. Sure, each trip is different, but when you've taken lots of trips on thingss, you can start to tell them apart from other things because even though each trip is different, there are many similarities between trips on a single substance. I can say with confidence that if you handed me a sample of 4-HO-DMT or a sample of 4-AcO-DMT, I could tell them apart within the first few minutes of starting to come up. They are, quite simply, two different drugs.

    Likewise, people tend to believe that 4-PO-DMT (psilocybin) metabolizes to 4-HO-DMT (psilocin), but I really don't buy that any of the esters besides the hydroxy just metabolize into the hydroxy. Perhaps they do, but I believe they have their own effects as well.

  11. #11
    Ex-Bluelighter Gaian Planes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    ATL/asheville
    Posts
    10,288
    ^ I agree with everything you said besides the last point. Its not that I disagree, per se, but I just don't know about the PO's pharmacology. I wouldn't be surprised either way.

    I definitely agree with a difference in subjective effects between the aco and the ho.

    Hey xorkoth, would you feel comfortable with the hypothesis that this difference in subjective effects is a difference in absorption/metabolism? (and thus that the aco does indeed eventually metabolize into the HO could be true in conjunction with the data that they are different subjectively).

  12. #12
    Senior Moderator
    Psychedelic Drugs
    Trip Reports
    Philosophy and Spirituality
    The Dark Side
    Shadowmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nowhere
    Posts
    33,534
    ^^ I could buy that hypothesis if there were some evidence (which there may be, I don't know). Is there evidence that the AcO ester does not have any effects on its own? If not, then I'm not sure why people would come to that conclusion. Why couldn't it have its own effects? It's a 4-substituted tryptamine.

    All I know is that for me, the two are totally different drugs which seem to affect me differently entirely. They both come on at the same incredibly rapid rate (10-15 minutes even orally). It just doesn't seem like there is time for it to metabolize into 4-HO-DMT before the effects start, and when the effects start, they are not the effects of 4-HO-DMT. When I take mushrooms by different methods with different absorbtion rates, I achieve the same types of effects, even if the faster absorbtion methods provide a slightly different style of trip. Likewise, when I take a substance rectally vs. orally (very different absorbtion rates), the differences are many, but the nature of the trips remains the same.

    It's my opinion that the reason the idea that 4-AcO-Ts and 4-HO-Ts are essentially the same drug came about because someone, somewhere, who people listened to decided that they must be the same, and people went with it. It's like another idea that some well-respected older members of the online community have spouted, that all or most of the 4-substituted tryptamines are essentially the same thing. Because to me, they're all totally separate drugs. Sure they have some similarities, but they're all unique. I feel that the same is true of AcO vs. HO esters of 4-substituted tryptamines.

  13. #13
    Ex-Bluelighter Gaian Planes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    ATL/asheville
    Posts
    10,288
    I agree with your line of reasoning. I think 4-aco-Ts can cross the BBB.

    Some people think they cannot (ie shulgin). Hence the theory that they must metabolize first.

    Reports of people IVing 4-aco-dmt and it being active almost immediately would suggest that the aco can actively cross the BBB at least by some MOAs.

  14. #14
    Bluelighter spun420833's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    South Padre
    Posts
    185
    4-aco-dmt hands down

  15. #15
    Bluelighter
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Mushrooms are boring.
    Posts
    1,519
    I'm not sure evrything reduces to chemistry. Scientific reductiontism leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Just my personal viewpoint.

  16. #16
    Bluelighter hamhurricane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Riding A White Swan
    Posts
    1,033
    Does anyone know if the acetoxy desacetylation can be done in vitro???

    Also i think the key piece of evidence in this debate is the matter of dosage i regularly see people describe the dosage of psilocetin 10+ mg higher than psilocin, that alone seems to be strong evidence that one is more than a prodrug of the other.

  17. #17
    Simply comparing the effects of plain 4-hydroxys and their 4-acetoxy counterparts should be a dead giveaway that they're more than just prodrugs. It's entirely possible, even likely, that the acetoxy is metabolized to a hydroxy, as that is known to happen with heroin, but I would wager that most of it reaches the brain unchanged. Again, the effects of heroin are far different from those of morphine. Perhaps differences in people's abilities to metabolize the acetoxy ester contribute to wider variability in their effects from person to person as compared to the simple hydroxy, something I've also observed. As hamhurricane pointed out, if the acetoxys were prodrugs, the doses as compared to the hydroxy should be the same, minus the molecular weight of the acetyl group, but this is clearly not the case. I don't understand why there was ever a question about it in the first place as the differences are blatantly obvious.

  18. #18
    Senior Moderator
    Psychedelic Drugs
    Trip Reports
    Philosophy and Spirituality
    The Dark Side
    Shadowmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nowhere
    Posts
    33,534
    Quote Originally Posted by butane
    Simply comparing the effects of plain 4-hydroxys and their 4-acetoxy counterparts should be a dead giveaway that they're more than just prodrugs.
    You know, this is exactly what I think. I wonder if the reason that a good number of people say that they're mostly indistinguishable is because there are a number of older reports around from people who had tried each once, maybe twice. They then wrote their reports as if they were fact, when in reality they had not had enough experience with the compounds to make that sort of generalization about the similarity of their effects. I know that before I ever tried any of the more obscure psychedelics, my perception of the 4-substituted tryptamines was that they were all essentially the same with maybe slight differences, other than duration. Then when I tried them I discovered that they are all unique and I wondered how someone who gave them a reasonable series of trials could possibly think they were all the same.

  19. #19
    ^good point (as I begin to commit the same fallacy .... i have tried 4-aco just once and fwiw found it to be quite different from psilocibin. nice compound though.

  20. #20
    Bluelighter
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    drugpolicy.org/action
    Posts
    4,503
    Quote Originally Posted by butane
    Simply comparing the effects of plain 4-hydroxys and their 4-acetoxy counterparts should be a dead giveaway that they're more than just prodrugs. It's entirely possible, even likely, that the acetoxy is metabolized to a hydroxy, as that is known to happen with heroin, but I would wager that most of it reaches the brain unchanged.
    A quick glance at my first post in this thread will show I agree with the consensous here about the full and independent activity of 4-AcO-DMT as 4-AcO-DMT. However, for the sake of fun quibbling allow me to play devil's advocate and say that the simple fact that the 4-AcOs and 4-hos are contrasted with one another is not sufficient to infer that the AcO is not a prodrug i.e. is not fully active on its own. The best, and only strong evidence of that is the immediate activity of the AcO via the IV route (the rest of the reasons for thinking that are mostly pragmatic, as there are a number of coincidences between independent reports of qualitative difference that are easier to explain if the AcO is fully active on its own, but this is hardly definitive.) The reason I say this is because the rate of absorbtion clearly affects the subjective experience of other drugs. Everyone agrees the experience of smoked or IVd DMT is distinct in QUALITY, not just "quantity," from even extremely high oral doses (who knows why exactly, but it is.) The reports that IM doses of DMT are far more comparable to oral doses than smoked or IVd doses indicates that the rate of absorption factors heavily in subjective qualitative experience independently of the presence of an MAOI. On this interpretation of the AcO as a prodrug, the qualitative differences--for example, that the AcOs are "smoother" than the hos--are a reflection purely of the slower absorption of the drug due to conversion time. Also, a prodrug is not necessarily completely inactive, only significantly less active than its "active" metabolite. So as devil's advocate I can also say that the AcO's small but not entirely insignificant independent activity in tandem with its slower rate of absorption is sufficient to explain the qualitative differences between it and the ho while maintaining that the AcO is still a prodrug.

  21. #21
    I completely see your point. But, as Xorkoth pointed out earlier, while rate of absorption does change the nature of the experience a bit, the differences between the 4-AcO and 4-HO are more than the difference between, say, oral and rectal administration. I've seen the speed and intensity differ with absorption rate, but I've never seen a different pattern one way or the other. The pattern is clearly different in the 4-AcO and 4-HO. Going IV is a whole nother ball game, as the drug is administered in its entirety instantly, whereas pretty much no matter how else you take it it's going to take at LEAST 15 minutes to be completely absorbed, which is some 60 times longer than IV (assuming 15s for dispersion etc.). Also, if the 4-AcOs were prodrugs administering the 4-HO over time, wouldn't they last longer? But the opposite is true.

    Here's what we need to do to find out for sure. Radiolabel the acetoxy group, and radiolabel the nitrogen (or anything else really on the tryptamine skeleton), and see if and for how long they stay together in the body.

  22. #22
    Ex-Bluelighter Gaian Planes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    ATL/asheville
    Posts
    10,288
    psood0nym thats what I've been saying all along that the absorption rates really REALLY affect the subjective experience.

    Anybody who has plugged, injected, whatever a drug they are familiar with orally will concur with this statement I think. It really does change the trip quite a bit, subjectively, with those higher absorption rates.

    I still think 4-AcO-DMT is active in its own right (ie crosses the BBB) since like I said in post 9 of this thread there are reports of immediate activity via IV administration.

    anyways, I think we got it covered. Case closed?

  23. #23
    Bluelighter
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    drugpolicy.org/action
    Posts
    4,503
    Yeah, cased closed. But for many of us the case has been closed since the around the middle of the first 4-AcO-DMT thread when the IV onset profile was discussed, if not before that in a different thread.

    Maybe a new thread should be started, but I'd like to hear some of the ADD people comment on how rate of absorption alone might influence a psychedelic's qualitative effects (what butane calls 'pattern' as contrasted with "quantitative" descriptions like 'speed' and 'intensity'.) I assume the idea would take the general form of: neurophysiological process X (maybe stress hormone release or something) occurs in response to substance A only if A enters the brain faster than some rate Q. Where X and A has qualitative psychological effects (pattern) that are distinct from the effects of A and not X. I have no idea what X might really be though.

  24. #24
    Bluelighter Black's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    2,888
    Quote Originally Posted by samadhi_smiles
    I still think 4-AcO-DMT is active in its own right (ie crosses the BBB) since like I said in post 9 of this thread there are reports of immediate activity via IV administration.
    but herion is active immediately when injected too although it's essentially a prodrug. i'm not saying that it has no activity in itself, as the subjective effects seem to be quite different than with psilocin.

  25. #25
    does anyone care to share the actual differences between 4-AcO-DMT and psilocin? i'm very curious. been reading a lot about psilacetin and getting 250 mg soon. i'd like to know if psilocin is worth the trouble.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •