U.K. - Government urged to sell cocaine and ecstasy in pharmacies

[December Flower]

Even drugs like cocaine should be legalized and regulated. Under the best of circumstances, coke, heroin, meth, etc. would not be safe substances or even close to it. They'd still be addictive and potentially very dangerous. However, if users were taking measured doses of a pure form of the drug, it would be far less dangerous than it is now. Because nowadays, there are often substances in the batch that users don't know are there.

The fear is that this will sprout 10 new users for everyone that's already using while the stuff is illegal. Sure, it's safer for addicts,
but what about the people who are curious, but not curious enough to do something illegal?

I find the argument that everything will be flowers & hugs once drugs are legalized suuuuuuuuuuch utter bullshit.

You think people openly stacking kilograms and kilograms of Heroin, Meth and Coke in pharmacies is a good idea? Yeah, there won't be a dozen robberies every day by crazed out druggies who're not getting enough of their DOC at pharmacies FOR SURE!

I mean, I'm all for treatment centers where you get a taper of the drug you're addicted to. Totally understand that.

But open and official production and distribution of hard drugs? P-lease, don't lie to yourself. You know it would be fucking chaos. Pharmacies would need their own armed-to-the-teeth security.

That's like the people that keep saying that the world would be all hugs & smiles if there was "Anarchy" :D Just makes me chuckle

 

[thegreenhand]

The fear is that this will sprout 10 new users for everyone that's already using while the stuff is illegal. Sure, it's safer for addicts,
but what about the people who are curious, but not curious enough to do something illegal?

I find the argument that everything will be flowers & hugs once drugs are legalized suuuuuuuuuuch utter bullshit.

You think people openly stacking kilograms and kilograms of Heroin, Meth and Coke in pharmacies is a good idea? Yeah, there won't be a dozen robberies every day by crazed out druggies who're not getting enough of their DOC at pharmacies FOR SURE!

I mean, I'm all for treatment centers where you get a taper of the drug you're addicted to. Totally understand that.

But open and official production and distribution of hard drugs? P-lease, don't lie to yourself. You know it would be fucking chaos. Pharmacies would need their own armed-to-the-teeth security.

That's like the people that keep saying that the world would be all hugs & smiles if there was "Anarchy" :D Just makes me chuckle

Because there’s never any violence or robberies in the current black market right?

at least in a legal market there is the opportunity for police recourse, unlike now when it’s all underground. Coca farmers in Colombia and poppy farmers will continue to be exploited by ruthless gangs unless an open market establishes itself

 

[December Flower]

Because there’s never any violence or robberies in the current black market right?

at least in a legal market there is the opportunity for police recourse, unlike now when it’s all underground. Coca farmers in Colombia and poppy farmers will continue to be exploited by ruthless gangs unless an open market establishes itself

People get exploited for fucking Sneakers, that has nothing to do with drugs, but yeah - that IS a problem.

However we're talking about a hypothetical scenario where all drugs would be legal and distributed in pharmacies. Nobody could say what would happen. Would there be 10 times as many ppl addicted to smack? Nobody really knows. Would I have to bring a gun to the pharmacy? Would the streets around every pharmacy be full of addicts waiting for their next hit?

Since we can't know that, I just can't see it happening ever. Decriminalisation, maybe some day, never full-on legalisation. Too many unknown factors.

 

[thegreenhand]

I mean i think alcohol is a fair model to look at. Yeah lot's of people use it and plenty more abuse it but it isn't anarchy. Most people buy their stuff for weekend partying or a drink or two after work and it's all well and good. Of course there are homeless people who wait outside to scrounge up enough change for a drink but it isn't anarchy

so i don't think it's fair to say that "Nobody could say what would happen" since we already have a model to look at with alcohol

 

[dalpat077]

Sorry to interject here again (and this not directed at anybody in particular especially not at you @thegreenhand i.e. this has been brought up before by others on at least two occasions on other threads).

I realize my long dissertations are pains in the backsides and I'm sure most skip over them and think "fuck not him again"! That said: my two most recent dissertations on this topic (which I'd argue are worthy of a PhD even although @MsDiz would not agree I'm sure) (topic of which would be "The Socioeconomic Impact of the Full Legalization of Cocaine in [insert name of country here]") on this thread have addressed this i.e. Cocaine is not the same as weed or alcohol and weed and alcohol therefore do not provide any template. And I'm not talking about effects of the drug here either vs. weed or alcohol (arguably of the three alcohol is probably the most generally harmful of all and for a veritable host of reasons).

Matter of fact and seeing as I'm sticking my neck out all over the place: I'm right now going to contact this Transform Drug Policy Foundation and ask to see the paperwork that was submitted (for those that don't know this comes from the first post on this thread). I really do want to see the thought process behind this proposal that was made (at least when it comes to Cocaine i.e. MDMA I can understand and for sure that could work and would make a few thousand people around here very happy to boot I'm sure).

I'm man enough to admit publicly that I'm wrong when I am wrong on something. But in the absence of further information and some type of well thought out blueprint: I'm sticking to my guns here. At least when it comes to Cocaine. For now.

In the meantime here's a link to their site again:

Home | Transform

transformdrugs.org

Interesting reading for sure. And a noble effort. So I'm not in any way knocking them. I'm just curious to see how the associated criminal element is viewed and understood.

Isn't there somewhere I can get paid for writing this shit?

 

[December Flower]

Sorry to interject here again (and this not directed at anybody in particular especially not at you @thegreenhand i.e. this has been brought up before by others on at least two occasions on other threads).

I realize my long dissertations are pains in the backsides and I'm sure most skip over them and think "fuck not him again"! That said: my two most recent dissertations on this topic (which I'd argue are worthy of a PhD even although @MsDiz would not agree I'm sure) (topic of which would be "The Socioeconomic Impact of the Full Legalization of Cocaine in [insert name of country here]") on this thread have addressed this i.e. Cocaine is not the same as weed or alcohol and weed and alcohol therefore do not provide any template. And I'm not talking about effects of the drug here either vs. weed or alcohol (arguably of the three alcohol is probably the most generally harmful of all and for a veritable host of reasons).

Matter of fact and seeing as I'm sticking my neck out all over the place: I'm right now going to contact this Transform Drug Policy Foundation and ask to see the paperwork that was submitted (for those that don't know this comes from the first post on this thread). I really do want to see the thought process behind this proposal that was made (at least when it comes to Cocaine i.e. MDMA I can understand and for sure that could work and would make a few thousand people around here very happy to boot I'm sure).

I'm man enough to admit publicly that I'm wrong when I am wrong on something. But in the absence of further information and some type of well thought out blueprint: I'm sticking to my guns here. At least when it comes to Cocaine. For now.

Isn't there somewhere I can get paid for writing this shit?

great read.

I mean i think alcohol is a fair model to look at. Yeah lot's of people use it and plenty more abuse it but it isn't anarchy. Most people buy their stuff for weekend partying or a drink or two after work and it's all well and good. Of course there are homeless people who wait outside to scrounge up enough change for a drink but it isn't anarchy

so i don't think it's fair to say that "Nobody could say what would happen" since we already have a model to look at with alcohol

Yeah, I agree with dalpat here: how can you even compare those? Sure, alcohol dependancy is hell, but it's SUPER HARD to get dependant. You'd need to drink daily for a year, and not even then I'm sure you're at the level of dependancy.

We're talking about Crack here, Meth and Heroin, 3 of the most highly addictive substances known to man. But you brush it off saying "yea but it works with alcohol"
DOES it even work with alcohol? We have so so so many rapes here during Oktoberfest, when the entire world flies in to rape our women passed out on the field. Does alcohol rly work? We have alcoholic streetbums, we have so fucking many alcoholics in Bavaria. I'm not convinced that it's going good with alcohol, and i'm certainly not convinced that the distribution of Crack & Meth would go peaceful.

 

[dalpat077]

Yeah listen up.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here at all. It's an absolutely fascinating topic. From start to finish. And there are just so many aspects to consider and to be taken into account. And while I'd like to say maybe I'm overthinking or over complicating matters (I'm good at doing both I'll admit): I honestly don't think so but am happy to be proved wrong.

And every time this thread pops up: I find myself posting and then leaving with more questions than answers! Even if I listed them at random and as they came to mind I'd be able to fill another page (with just the questions let alone the answers)!

While looking for their contact details I found the below and I stand corrected i.e. there's information on the site now that I never saw before (the site has changed very recently so far as I can tell).

What is legal drug regulation? | Transform

transformdrugs.org

Let's analyze that all before engaging i.e. even more questions now!

 

[December Flower]

I mean I can somehow understand the legalisation of Heroin. It's basically already given out freely in the form of OC, or other opiates. Also I don't think the addicts would be much of a problem to handle as long as they're getting heroin, and we certainly have a surplus of opioid production in medicine. This is basically already being done, there would be no real difference in legalising Heroin, except that street dope would fall out of the picture, and fentanyl-cuts kill people, we all know that.

But Crack or Meth, we all know addicts can be fucking unpredictable. You got Methheads never running out of Meth, fml. In this hypothetical scenario I'd be afraid to take my hypothetical child to the pharmacy to get cough drops.

 

[dalpat077]

I mean I can somehow understand the legalisation of Heroin. It's basically already given out freely in the form of OC, or other opiates. Also I don't think the addicts would be much of a problem to handle as long as they're getting heroin, and we certainly have a surplus of opioid production in medicine. This is basically already being done, there would be no real difference in legalising Heroin, except that street dope would fall out of the picture, and fentanyl-cuts kill people, we all know that.

But Crack or Meth, we all know addicts can be fucking unpredictable. You got Methheads never running out of Meth, fml. In this hypothetical scenario I'd be afraid to take my hypothetical child to the pharmacy to get cough drops.

Well you make good points re: opiates. I think so anyway i.e. not my field of expertise, nor within my scope of knowledge or experience at all, but I do read about all of the success stories as published. Maybe somebody who is a participant in these programs could chime in here.

The above being said though (and simply putting this out there from and from an outsider's point of view): obvious question is how come there are people using, abusing, and dying from fake (cut) Oxycontin? Taking it a step further: what about fake (cut) Xanax (to name but the usual benzodiazepine suspect)? In order to eliminate this we drop the scheduling status? Now we have legit Oxycontin and Xanax. Problem solved? Legit Oxycontin and Xanax freely available and with legal alcohol sales. And legal weed. And legal MDMA. Not being judgmental nor pointing fingers at all i.e. trying to process this.

I'm purposely leaving Cocaine out here because I stand by my posts (dissertations?) on this drug on this thread (and nothing to do with its effects as noted) (the exception to this though as you've noted i.e. Crack potential).

Just a musing: maybe I'm overestimating the criminal element in all of this i.e. it's simply a function of how my mind operates I guess (and I'm no criminal or criminal mastermind either) (yet! ).

 

[December Flower]

Well you make good points re: opiates. I think so anyway i.e. not my field of expertise, nor within my scope of knowledge or experience at all, but I do read about all of the success stories as published. Maybe somebody who is a participant in these programs could chime in here.

The above being said though (and simply putting this out there from and from an outsider's point of view): obvious question is how come there are people using, abusing, and dying from fake (cut) Oxycontin? Taking it a step further: what about fake (cut) Xanax (to name but the usual benzodiazepine suspect)? In order to eliminate this we drop the scheduling status? Now we have legit Oxycontin and Xanax. Problem solved? Legit Oxycontin and Xanax freely available and with legal alcohol sales. And legal weed. And legal MDMA. Not being judgmental nor pointing fingers at all i.e. trying to process this.

I'm purposely leaving Cocaine out here because I stand by my posts (dissertations?) on this drug on this thread (and nothing to do with its effects as noted) (the exception to this though as you've noted i.e. Crack potential).

Just a musing: maybe I'm overestimating the criminal element in all of this i.e. it's simply a function of how my mind operates I guess (and I'm no criminal or criminal mastermind either) (yet! ).

No I really don't think you're overestimating.
Most of the drug world is pretty undercover right now, many in the "normal", drug-free community are absolutely unaware of just how many people around them are addicts.

If you would put that all into open and public view, people would go bonkers insane. Not to mention poly-drug abusing spun-out tweakers everywhere in a 5 mile radius around a pharmacy.

I just can't see that happening, this is bizarro world stuff.

 

[dalpat077]

No I really don't think you're overestimating.
Most of the drug world is pretty undercover right now, many in the "normal", drug-free community are absolutely unaware of just how many people around them are addicts.

If you would put that all into open and public view, people would go bonkers insane. Not to mention poly-drug abusing spun-out tweakers everywhere in a 5 mile radius around a pharmacy.

I just can't see that happening, this is bizarro world stuff.

Still busy reading through their site. For sure there's a wealth of knowledge and experience etc. being applied. Cannot fault them there at all. Could also be I'm focusing (as noted) on the underbelly here and not seeing the wood for the trees. Reading about Scotland, for example, shows another side to all of this. This thread and topic will do my head in!

And then I think well instead of looking for excuses as to why this wouldn't all work: just trial it and see. I can see it now. One outlet in the middle of London selling pure and cheap Cocaine and Meth. all nicely and neatly measured out and boxed up!

But wait just ONE minute! I sat and stared at the above for at least a half hour trying to process the images that came to mind. And then it dawned on me (and this is the value of open discussion) i.e. drop the retail outlet idea totally! Signed for online mail order only! Yes? No? Maybe? If this ever takes off: you saw it here first (Amazon) so don't get clever!

 

[Juniper Bruhmomentius]

Legalize buprenorphine all over the world. Start your legalization from maintenance stuff. Coke aint that. Tho it should be legal anyways.

 

[thegreenhand]

I will certainly admit that I have a political/moral stance which is that an individual has liberty of their cognitive faculties, and any willful alterations of it. So there, I know that is a philosophical argument which cannot be won but it is part of the basis for my belief

but onto practicality. Quite frankly, add it’s aren’t gonna stop using just because a drug is illegal. So a safe supply is indeed the best way to keep them safe. Ok so then we can have free drug checking right? Good start, but it doesn’t solve the issues of cartels. Ruthless gangs that exploit and murder thousands upon thousands of people. The illegality of drugs creates the black market for these gangs to work in. Inner cities are run by drug dealing gangs because there is no way else out of poverty. But what if selling these drugs wasn’t illegal? Then perhaps they could sell the drugs they already were selling without fear of losing their life or ending up in prison or getting beaten up by a cop. Just food for thought

 

[December Flower]

I will certainly admit that I have a political/moral stance which is that an individual has liberty of their cognitive faculties, and any willful alterations of it. So there, I know that is a philosophical argument which cannot be won but it is part of the basis for my belief

but onto practicality. Quite frankly, add it’s aren’t gonna stop using just because a drug is illegal. So a safe supply is indeed the best way to keep them safe. Ok so then we can have free drug checking right? Good start, but it doesn’t solve the issues of cartels. Ruthless gangs that exploit and murder thousands upon thousands of people. The illegality of drugs creates the black market for these gangs to work in. Inner cities are run by drug dealing gangs because there is no way else out of poverty. But what if selling these drugs wasn’t illegal? Then perhaps they could sell the drugs they already were selling without fear of losing their life or ending up in prison or getting beaten up by a cop. Just food for thought

You do have the right to take whatever you want. O wait, you don't, hm, I thought consumption would be legal everywhere, but that seems to be one of our whacky German laws here.
Here it's allowed to consume anything you want, you just can't possess it, or drive a car/bike/vespa/w.e on the substance.

The part that's not a philosophical argument ist the issue here. What about the other people? What about the non-druggies? They'd shit their pants going to the pharmacy, srsly. You have no idea how SCARED some people are of addicts, they think they're gonna get robbed and murdered by potheads. BY POTHEADS ffs. If a pothead wants to rob me, I just give him a light push and walk away slowly.

 

[dalpat077]

Well let me begin by saying I actually wan't joking about the mail ordering only system (although it may have appeared to be so).

It addresses many issues. Not least of which would keep users off the road while under the influence. And I'm not talking DNM shit here or Cryptocurrencies or any other underhanded stuff. Could be managed on the exact same basis as pharmacies (here anyway), due to the pandemic, push to keep people out of their premises and to rather order online and have medication delivered (exceptions being the higher scheduled stuff e.g. Fentanyl).

But I dunno. For every idea that comes to mind: there's a drawback (usually several).

This really could be a study in and of itself. I reckon you have to first work out in detail exactly what it is that you're trying to accomplish, then design the perfect system assuming a perfect world, and then start pulling it apart piece by piece to see if it all holds up and where the weak links are in the chain and try address them. And while this may seem obvious to most: I wonder.

Maybe best case scenario can only be the lesser of any number of evils. Again an obvious statement I suppose.

In just going through that site yesterday though: so far as I can tell anyway the biggest issue of all that I can see, before we even get to the nuts and bolts, is the UN and associated bodies etc. Not to mention political will. Bearing in mind that we're talking about full legalization here i.e. not just decriminalization for possession or for personal use. And which does beg a question. In spite of the apparent ongoing discussions and softening stance on medical use of Cannabis: it still remains "categorised internationally alongside drugs like heroin and cocaine.". And that's of December last year. I don't have the knowledge or experience or expertise to square this all away to be honest given that quite a few countries, as we know, have gone their own way anyway.

UN green lights medicinal cannabis but fails to challenge its colonial legacy | Transform

transformdrugs.org

Global Drug Policy | Transform

transformdrugs.org

Be real nice if somebody in the know (hint hint) would chime in here. I'm just playing guessing games and putting out hypotheses that could be totally off of the mark. I'd find it a stretch to believe that this site is not known to them. And, let's be honest, the overwhelming majority of members here would be affected by all of this, have an interest in this, and are, dare I say, the target market really.

 

[thegreenhand]

You do have the right to take whatever you want. O wait, you don't, hm, I thought consumption would be legal everywhere, but that seems to be one of our whacky German laws here.
Here it's allowed to consume anything you want, you just can't possess it, or drive a car/bike/vespa/w.e on the substance.

I believe consumption isnt specifically illegal in the US but if possession and purchasing arent then what good does that get me?

The part that's not a philosophical argument ist the issue here. What about the other people? What about the non-druggies? They'd shit their pants going to the pharmacy, srsly. You have no idea how SCARED some people are of addicts, they think they're gonna get robbed and murdered by potheads. BY POTHEADS ffs. If a pothead wants to rob me, I just give him a light push and walk away slowly.

Like @dalpat077 said, online ordering really could work well. I would LOVE to see independent drug producers selling online on an eBay type site. Colombian coca straight from the farm, Czech LSD from a superlab, etc.

And as for the remaining sales not online - you learn to live with it. I live in a larger city and I see people everyday who are using drugs on the street, muttering to themselves etc. But I simply walk by them and go about my business. Keeping these addicts in the underworld isn’t gonna change peoples attitudes about them, but destigmatizing them might help. People simply have to learn that drug users/addicts are still people and you just gotta deal with them

Well let me begin by saying I actually wan't joking about the mail ordering only system (although it may have appeared to be so).

It addresses many issues. Not least of which would keep users off the road while under the influence. And I'm not talking DNM shit here or Cryptocurrencies or any other underhanded stuff. Could be managed on the exact same basis as pharmacies (here anyway), due to the pandemic, push to keep people out of their premises and to rather order online and have medication delivered (exceptions being the higher scheduled stuff e.g. Fentanyl).

But I dunno. For every idea that comes to mind: there's a drawback (usually several).

This really could be a study in and of itself. I reckon you have to first work out in detail exactly what it is that you're trying to accomplish, then design the perfect system assuming a perfect world, and then start pulling it apart piece by piece to see if it all holds up and where the weak links are in the chain and try address them. And while this may seem obvious to most: I wonder.

Maybe best case scenario can only be the lesser of any number of evils. Again an obvious statement I suppose.

In just going through that site yesterday though: so far as I can tell anyway the biggest issue of all that I can see, before we even get to the nuts and bolts, is the UN and associated bodies etc. Not to mention political will. Bearing in mind that we're talking about full legalization here i.e. not just decriminalization for possession or for personal use. And which does beg a question. In spite of the apparent ongoing discussions and softening stance on medical use of Cannabis: it still remains "categorised internationally alongside drugs like heroin and cocaine.". And that's of December last year. I don't have the knowledge or experience or expertise to square this all away to be honest given that quite a few countries, as we know, have gone their own way anyway.

UN green lights medicinal cannabis but fails to challenge its colonial legacy | Transform

transformdrugs.org

Global Drug Policy | Transform

transformdrugs.org

Be real nice if somebody in the know (hint hint) would chime in here. I'm just playing guessing games and putting out hypotheses that could be totally off of the mark. I'd find it a stretch to believe that this site is not known to them. And, let's be honest, the overwhelming majority of members here would be affected by all of this, have an interest in this, and are, dare I say, the target market really.

There’s a lot to unpack here lol

I think you hit it on the head with “lesser of two evils”. I’m not saying it’s gonna be rainbows and unicorns if drugs became legal. But I strongly believe it’d be better than our current prohibition, and also better than decrim which simply doesn’t address the issue of the violent black market

 

[December Flower]

I believe consumption isnt specifically illegal in the US but if possession and purchasing arent then what good does that get me?

The difference is that if consumption were illegal, you could land a penalty just for being high, no matter if you're driving or at home on your couch.

Come to think of it, we do have a penalty for being high in traffic. This includes walking. So if you're too drunk/high to drive, and decide to walk home, and the way home contains streets, you can lose your driver's license for that
I guess that's why people drunk drive here so much, because it's the same penalty

 

[dalpat077]

Don’t worry. We three shall solve the problems and draw up the real blueprint.

Just need to sleep on it again!

 

[thegreenhand]

how ironic, this was released just a few hours ago

could probably even have its own thread but I’ll leave it here for now

 

[dalpat077]

how ironic, this was released just a few hours ago

could probably even have its own thread but I’ll leave it here for now

I nearly fell off of my chair when I saw the title!

Not sure what to say actually. If it didn't have the Vice logo at the top though it could easily be mistaken for a Transform promotional video.

I suppose there's only so much you can fit into 11 or so minutes. But sorry to say that the elephant in the room (Cocaine) is hardly given a mention. Not to mention Meth. (although once again I still believe Meth. too is doable).

And I don't know if it's just me: but the original article was based on the proposal of selling Cocaine and Ecstasy yet everything subsequent to that seems to have toned down on the Cocaine part of the equation.

Maybe also the UK could be deemed a special case given its size and geography?

I realize you (probably?) cannot argue with the Swiss (or other) statistics. But for the sake of my own interest is this Heroin being supplied in these programs naturally derived or totally synthetic? Anybody?

Just some random thoughts on the topic (as they came to mind).

I dunno. Maybe it's just where I come from. Maybe the people in the UK and the EU etc. are different. All I know is that (here anyway) where there's a gap somebody will take it and exploit it for everything that it's worth and then some (and that includes politicians and law enforcement).

Oh. And one thing that's really pissing me off about Vice is this age restriction nonsense. The people that really need to see stuff like this (and content related to abuse etc.) are the younger generation (fuck that makes me sound old) but this bunch keeps age restricting their content. Yet gratuitous violence and glorification of substance use and abuse etc. is a free-for-all when it comes to the entertainment industry.

Like @dalpat077 said, online ordering really could work well. I would LOVE to see independent drug producers selling online on an eBay type site. Colombian coca straight from the farm, Czech LSD from a superlab, etc.

Don't get too happy! Said proposal was based on the idea that there would be one single, government controlled, point of entry, manufacture, quality control, storage, testing, and website (for sales). Boring I know.

For what it's worth: I THINK I've solved a part of the Cocaine problem!

Sorry. Sometimes these things take time to sink into my head (due in part I'm sure to the current information overload on this stuff).

There's already a model! Coca-Cola and the Stepan Company in the USA!

So that takes care of price and eliminates the need for costly 100% synthesis. I think anyway.

Now all we got to do is police this stuff (and from what I gather it's doable if the USA model is anything to go by).

Right. What's next? Any questions?