News Alcohol laws can’t solve this’: NT Indigenous groups welcome new funding but urge longer-term solutions

[MydriHaze]

Alcohol laws can’t solve this’: NT Indigenous groups welcome new funding but urge longer-term solutions​

Sarah Collard
The Guardian
6 Feb 2023

Excerpts:

Indigenous organisations are welcoming much-needed federal funding for youth, employment and health investments in Central Australia, announced alongside the reintroduction of alcohol bans in the Northern Territory.

The measures announced Monday mean that Aboriginal people living in remote communities and town camps in the NT will not be able to buy takeaway alcohol, with the communities reverting to becoming dry areas.

Under the plan, communities will need to develop Community Alcohol Plans, with areas wanting to opt-out of a dry-zone needing the support of at least 60% of the community.

Federal NT senator Malarndirri McCarthy told Nine’s Today Show that the measures were a “circuit breaker” the territory government needed to enact to give communities a reprieve.

But she said the issues were complex and urged longer-term solutions.

“There does need to be a longer-term conversation around alcohol and what those communities would like to see in the future, and I know that’s part of the plan.”

 

[MydriHaze]

Can you believe that shit? I met a girl once who has been to north australia and she was saying that the aboriginies were getting an allocation of guilt by the gouvernment, as a reward for behing almost extincted, so naturally they got nothing to do except drinking with this drugs politics

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

Can you believe that shit?

Yes I can believe this colonizing attempt to keep the locals under control... they did the same to indigenous americans and no doubt like colonies.
They also outlawed the peyote and other natural medicines that native americans used for many hundreds/thousands of years.

 

[MydriHaze]

Yes I can believe this colonizing attempt to keep the locals under control... they did the same to indigenous americans and no doubt like colonies.
They also outlawed the peyote and other natural medicines that native americans used for many hundreds/thousands of years.

Yeah well that, they're used to do that with anything except alcohol, gladfully we can see some judiciaries break through in term of legislation in USA, wiiich occurs better for the future and the rest of the world

 

[Xorkoth]

The same kind of thing happened in America (all of both north and south america, really). We came in and just entirely fucked a whole continent of people and destroyed their way of life, and killed most of them. Now they're largely on reservations, and the situation there is really bad, or so I hear, I have no personal experience, but my ex-wife's cousin's mom lived on one so I heard a lot. A lot of anger, obviously, and it seems like a massive amount of alcoholism. Not surprising, but really sad.

 

[-=SS=-]

No competing cultures or ways of life are permissible to the beast system. Especially those with a spiritual angle or ability. I think the Spanish eviscerating the South American continent sums it up perfectly, and how western history still continues to lie about the supposed barbarism of those civilizations in order to obscure and justify its imperialism.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I'm from Alaska, where there is a similar system involving "wet", "damp" and "dry" villages. ("Wet" = alcohol is legal, "damp" alcohol is legal to possess but not legal to sell, "dry" alcohol is illegal to possess and sell). Needless to say that it's a total failure, as all prohibitionist policies are. It doesn't strike at the root of the (admittedly complex and not easy to solve) problem.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I don't use alcohol or tobacco but oceanas continued crackdowns on both along with their handling of covid show a dark lean towards authoritarianism that is turning this part of the world into a place I never hope to visit and I hope all others can escape that wish to

 

[Foreigner]

Australia is such a shit hole of a country. I have never seen such a bunch of bushwhacking, redneck, racist, control-freak losers in a government as I have watching their politicians giving press conferences. My opinion of Oz was already low but after seeing what went on there during the pandemic, I have written it off as a place that I will ever consider visiting in a million years. This colonial shit of banning alcohol for the Aborigines is just par for the course in their degenerate neck of the woods.

 

[Xorkoth]

*centuries of systemic oppresion*

*culture drinks to cope*

I know! Let's illegalize alcohol! But just for them! Cheers, mate! *glugglugluglug*

 

[-=SS=-]

Australia is such a shit hole of a country. I have never seen such a bunch of bushwhacking, redneck, racist, control-freak losers in a government as I have watching their politicians giving press conferences. My opinion of Oz was already low but after seeing what went on there during the pandemic, I have written it off as a place that I will ever consider visiting in a million years. This colonial shit of banning alcohol for the Aborigines is just par for the course in their degenerate neck of the woods.

Always key to remember that Australia isn't really 'Australia', but actually England's (the Crown's) penal colony v0.1. It is literally the very worst distillation of our social structure, with its leaders really being not much more than the prison guards and enforcers of the Crown's will, and then all the criminals who were British subjects who have passed on the mental scars downstream to their offspring. A bright and sunny nation, founded in darkness.

The actions of the Australian state during covid demonstrated this simple truth. I think a lot of people outside Australia were surprised by just how mental they showed themselves to be, despite these tendencies being hardwired in the nations DNA. And they'll do it again, and worse, next time. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, all these countries went mental because they are Crown colonies. It's not rocket science. All their evil stems from here (England), where methodical masochism and barbarism has been honed to a fine art - we hate seeing others being happy or succeeding (tall poppy syndrome), because we ourselves have been corrupted by an external power. It's begun to surface again recently here at home, where our leaders seem to be turning the screws to make life even more miserable for the subjects.

 

[Foreigner]

Always key to remember that Australia isn't really 'Australia', but actually England's (the Crown's) penal colony v0.1. It is literally the very worst distillation of our social structure, with its leaders really being not much more than the prison guards and enforcers of the Crown's will, and then all the criminals who were British subjects who have passed on the mental scars downstream to their offspring. A bright and sunny nation, founded in darkness.

The actions of the Australian state during covid demonstrated this simple truth. I think a lot of people outside Australia were surprised by just how mental they showed themselves to be, despite these tendencies being hardwired in the nations DNA. And they'll do it again, and worse, next time. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, all these countries went mental because they are Crown colonies. It's not rocket science. All their evil stems from here (England), where methodical masochism and barbarism has been honed to a fine art - we hate seeing others being happy or succeeding (tall poppy syndrome), because we ourselves have been corrupted by an external power. It's begun to surface again recently here at home, where our leaders seem to be turning the screws to make life even more miserable for the subjects.

Good observation. I'm seeing a lot of that in Canada right now. The ones who went to the colonies were the ones who couldn't afford to stay in Europe. They were already the rejects, somehow. That's what I think of as I've been looking at Canada's utter and complete retardation on full display these past few years. Not as bad as Australia mind you, but nearly. I never fully appreciated just how full of statists Canada is until the rude awakening of recent times.

The British and their bad apples are definitely masochists and sadists. You notice the difference when you cross the border into the U.S. Americans are loud mouths but they support each other's endeavours. I always wondered why Americans, on average, have so much more money than Canadians. Then I lived in the U.S. for a while and realized that it's because they don't hate each other for succeeding like the Commonwealth nations do. Canada doesn't give two shits about the pursuit of happiness. In fact, if the citizens get too happy, they make laws to shut it down. I live in the 3rd biggest city in Canada and the bars/clubs all close at 2am. Go home everybody and go to bed. It's time to retire! What's that? You think you're a grown adult? No no... we don't have those in this country.

The credo of the U.S. is life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Want to know what Canada's is? Peace, order and good governance. Says it all. Don't be too happy or it might threaten our order and some faces might crack. Can't have that, now can we!

 

[Xorkoth]

You notice the difference when you cross the border into the U.S. Americans are loud mouths but they support each other's endeavours. I always wondered why Americans, on average, have so much more money than Canadians. Then I lived in the U.S. for a while and realized that it's because they don't hate each other for succeeding like the Commonwealth nations do. Canada doesn't give two shits about the pursuit of happiness. In fact, if the citizens get too happy, they make laws to shut it down. I live in the 3rd biggest city in Canada and the bars/clubs all close at 2am. Go home everybody and go to bed. It's time to retire! What's that? You think you're a grown adult? No no... we don't have those in this country.

Bars/clubs close at 2am in a lot of places in America, although it's not federally enforced, it's a state/municipality thing. In my state, alcohol sales are banned from 2am to 6am (noon on Sundays because churh). So most bars/clubs close at 2am, although not all (but they have to stop serving alcohol then regardless). But I've been to places where this isn't the case.

Still, I agree with you that we tend to be happy for each others' success, except for the underlying current of hatred for the rich. But it's weird because we also idolize the rich.

 

[Foreigner]

Still, I agree with you that we tend to be happy for each others' success, except for the underlying current of hatred for the rich. But it's weird because we also idolize the rich.

The rich are hated everywhere. I'm talking more about the spirit of enterprise. When somebody has a good business idea in the U.S., they usually get support from their local community. In Canada, if you have a good business idea that is disruptive, your community won't show up for you. It's why Canada is so colonized by foreign business. Canadians will consume but they are not the world's business leaders. I've had this conversation with so many entrepreneurs here over the years. Most rely on the American market to sell their products.

I've had one failed business and one successful business. The failed business was due to relying on my local economy. Getting Canadians to support your enterprise is next to impossible unless you have a rich donor who can make you look like you're already successful. In my second business, I added product delivery to the United States and 70% of my income is from there now. Yes, the American market is obviously larger, but it's also the business culture. It was so much easier to form partnerships with American businesses than Canadian ones. I could drive to an American town and talk to shop owners who were very open and interested in talking to me about it, as long as there was mutual benefit. In Canada, the store owners often aren't on site or won't keep their appointments with you. The Canadian ones also demanded perfection up front instead of realizing that perfection is a team effort that is built over time by supporting one another. Canadians are simpletons and it's why so many businesses here go under (the failure rate is much higher than the U.S). Each business has to go it almost entirely alone because the business culture of building together is weak.

My sense is that the U.S. business culture comes from the history of having to go it alone from the rest of Europe. In Canada, they are used to sucking on the British tit and being told what to do, so they've never had to fight for anything. It's just... quiet, peaceful, unchanging, boring. I would love to live in the U.S. just for the opportunity to make money. I know your country has its problems but the work ethic is so different for small business owners. In the grand scheme though, I'm looking to get out of North America entirely. I don't want to be here when digital slavery comes within this decade.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

But it's weird because we also idolize the rich.

counter culture

 

[sunday.bird]

So, this thread is very openly anti-Australian.

I'm not offended... In fact, I get it. I understand the outrage.

There is one law for white communities and another law for Aboriginal communities. This is technically discrimination, which is usually a racist thing. It is more complicated than that, though.

Some Americans here have drawn comparisons to comparable historic situations involving Native Americans. I'm not familiar with American history, so I can't say whether or not the situation is the same.

Alcohol prohibition in indigenous Australian communities won't end up like Chicago (or whatever) in the 1930s. I'm no expert on that era, obviously... but I know the gist of it.

If they tried to do an alcohol ban in Melbourne, people would go ape-shit for a while and then it'd all go black market and moonshine. There's already a lot of hobbyists making batch alcohol in spite of the government tightly restricting our ability to do so on private land. If they introduced prohibition, all they'd be doing is feeding money to criminals.

Indigenous communities in Australia (I'm not taking about Alice yet) aren't like major Australian cities. They might as well be in a different (third world) country.

There is widespread poverty and in some areas (world) record breaking rates of child sexual assault. Incest rates are very high. Statistically I think Aboriginal people are less likely to drink but way more likely to abuse alcohol if they do drink.

Indigenous Australians - just remembered we're not supposed to say Aboriginal anymore - never consumed alcohol. They existed almost completely isolated from the rest of the world throughout all of modern and ancient history... The introduction of alcohol has had a devastating effect on their way of life. For whatever reason, it behaves like a much harder drug when they consume it.

There is a biological factor, I think... but, it doesn't matter. The reason is irrelevant.

When men, women and children in a community are suffering to that extent because of a drug (any drug) it should be controlled.

Absolute freedom is not more important than safety.

A lot of you wonderful BL people have declared your fundamentalism in regards to legalization. I don't know who of you belongs to this tribe, but I remember being surprised repeatedly how many otherwise rational people could possibly think that everything should be legal for production and sale.

I understand legal for consumption. That I agree with. Doesn't matter what it is. People can do whatever the fuck they want.

I also don't think people should be criminally punished for producing their own drugs that they intend to consume themselves. They shouldn't be allowed to sell the drugs publicly. Perhaps - if caught - selling could be treated more like tax fraud rather than trafficking. Make everything legal for consumption and home production, but slap big fines (on top of the estimated tax owed) for anyone who profits by selling their stash.

I don't know. That's just of the top of my head.

If people in Indigenous communities go to the effort to make home-brew, let them drink it.

It gets worse than Alice Springs, but it is fucked up there. They don't need pubs and bottle shops on every corner. It isn't helping.

People (indigenous and alien) blame British colonists for destroying Indigenous culture. The little I know about native American history revolves around stuff I've seen in US film/TV. Having investigated Australian history somewhat, what we did pales in comparison to the British colonists who established the USA. Australia has a bade reputation that it doesn't deserve.

Always key to remember that Australia isn't really 'Australia', but actually England's (the Crown's) penal colony v0.1. It is literally the very worst distillation of our social structure, with its leaders really being not much more than the prison guards and enforcers of the Crown's will, and then all the criminals who were British subjects who have passed on the mental scars downstream to their offspring. A bright and sunny nation, founded in darkness.

The actions of the Australian state during covid demonstrated this simple truth. I think a lot of people outside Australia were surprised by just how mental they showed themselves to be, despite these tendencies being hardwired in the nations DNA. And they'll do it again, and worse, next time. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, all these countries went mental because they are Crown colonies. It's not rocket science. All their evil stems from here (England), where methodical masochism and barbarism has been honed to a fine art - we hate seeing others being happy or succeeding (tall poppy syndrome), because we ourselves have been corrupted by an external power. It's begun to surface again recently here at home, where our leaders seem to be turning the screws to make life even more miserable for the subjects.

As for the COVID stuff, there was definitely government overreach but I think you're being a bit dramatic.

You might be a self-hating white person... Or is it just the Commonwealth you hate?

You should be proud.

I am.

*centuries of systemic oppresion*
*culture drinks to cope*
I know! Let's illegalize alcohol! But just for them! Cheers, mate! *glugglugluglug*

...

Now they're largely on reservations, and the situation there is really bad, or so I hear, I have no personal experience, but my ex-wife's cousin's mom lived on one so I heard a lot. A lot of anger, obviously, and it seems like a massive amount of alcoholism. Not surprising, but really sad.

If alcohol is as much of a problem in native American communities as it is in Indigenous Australian communities, why (when all other drugs are illegal) should it be legal?

I think we'd generally be better off - all of us - without alcohol. You could replace it with any of the mainstream natural psychedelics (as the only legal drug) and that one tweak would radically transform society.

The toxicity in white Australian culture mostly comes from alcohol. I go to a lot of pubs at work. I've been to maybe sixty pubs in the past half year. There are always miserable drunks that say fuck every three words who are inches away from a fight. Insecure testosterone-fuelled animals, talking shit like their mouths are assholes.

What people describe as male toxicity isn't how men are naturally. It's a culture of shit.

If you give someone acid in a safe controlled environment where they feel calm and they're not conflicted, you will see their true state.

I don't want my kids drinking alcohol excessively, but I'm not going to tell them not to drink ever. I haven't had a drink in nine months, but I'm determined to conquer my drinking problems so I will return at some point.

I will say to my kids: don't do crack or heroin or meth ever... and never use needles.

If a community wants to reach it's full potential, the leaders of that community need to think about what's best. This is a trial and error process.

The crime in Alice is already down.

Some people - like those who don't drink and are sick of the chaos - are thankful.

Takeaway booze ban has positive effect on Alice Springs' crime rate

The crime crisis sweeping Alice Springs has seen a "dramatic improvement" since the introduction of a two-day ban on takeaway alcohol as a decision looms over whether to reinstate blanket liquor restrictions.

www.skynews.com.au

“Domestic violence incidents which were running extremely high were much, much, lower as well about a quarter of what they were," he said.

How is the legal sale of alcohol more of a priority than domestic violence, assault and armed break ins?

If prohibition works, it works. If it doesn't it doesn't.

I'm not even slightly racist towards Indigenous Australians. I'm sympathetic. I'd like to help. We'd all like to help... but, there's only so much you can do.

I'm not related to colonists. My family has only been here for four or five generations. Most of the country isn't related to colonists.

It seems cruel to not try and help, but - like I said - what can you do?

Australia is such a shit hole of a country. I have never seen such a bunch of bushwhacking, redneck, racist, control-freak losers in a government as I have watching their politicians giving press conferences. My opinion of Oz was already low but after seeing what went on there during the pandemic, I have written it off as a place that I will ever consider visiting in a million years. This colonial shit of banning alcohol for the Aborigines is just par for the course in their degenerate neck of the woods.

This is by far the most racist comment in the thread. Congratulations.

I'm proud to call myself an Australian.

I'd rather be Australian than any other nationality on the planet.

If I was English, I'd be proud too.

Our politicians are ridiculous and embarrassing. I hate Australian politics, but there are a lot of great things about this country.

We overreach with pandemics - sure - but we also overreach with care and support. You don't have to worry when you live here. That's why people are generally happier here, despite all the bushwacking and what not. We've got plenty of miserable people, but we're happier (I think) than the British or the Americans. Generally speaking. On average, or whatever. I'm very stoned.

I work in disability. Most people I support don't use all of their funding because it is more than they need. That's the way it should be. The cost of living is high, but the money is well spent IMO.

I've lived in four countries on four continents. I love all of them in different ways.

You should come visit us.

We like foreigners.

...

For the record, I think this thread is fine. I don't like some of the opinions expressed here about my wonderful country, but that's cool. I don't like China sometimes. Then, I remember: there's over a billion people there.

There hasn't been much effort ITT (minus the tangential discussion and the anti-Aussie stuff) to discuss the reason this ban was implemented and/or the success rate of the history of prohibition in Indigenous communities.

As I said, there isn't much room for discussion if you believe in legalizing everything.

I believe there are things that are good for society and there are also bad things.

I'd rather certain drugs be legal and certain drugs be illegal.

That's where we are heading with weed and mushrooms.

 

[-=SS=-]

They existed almost completely isolated from the rest of the world throughout all of modern and ancient history... The introduction of alcohol white people has had a devastating effect on their way of life.

You might be a self-hating white person... Or is it just the Commonwealth you hate?

I don't hate white people because they have white skin. It's the mind virus that we carry that I hate. Call it the Crown, Commonwealth, the beast, whatever. This thing that we have that results in us attempting to wipe out any competing system and then turn around and demonize those who were conquered.

They were doing fine until we showed up. And now the system wants to punish them for indulging in something that was foisted upon them by the system? Typical.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Some Americans here have drawn comparisons to comparable historic situations involving Native Americans. I'm not familiar with American history, so I can't say whether or not the situation is the same.

...

There is widespread poverty and in some areas (world) record breaking rates of child sexual assault. Incest rates are very high. Statistically I think Aboriginal people are less likely to drink but way more likely to abuse alcohol if they do drink.

Indigenous Australians - just remembered we're not supposed to say Aboriginal anymore - never consumed alcohol. They existed almost completely isolated from the rest of the world throughout all of modern and ancient history... The introduction of alcohol has had a devastating effect on their way of life. For whatever reason, it behaves like a much harder drug when they consume it.

There is a biological factor, I think... but, it doesn't matter. The reason is irrelevant.
...

If alcohol is as much of a problem in native American communities as it is in Indigenous Australian communities, why (when all other drugs are illegal) should it be legal?

Your post is pretty long, but I just want to comment about these themes here predominantly

First off, I think that the underlying reason is very relevant. If you don't understand the underlying reason, how can you come up with an effective diagnosis to treat the problem? And for what it's worth, AFAIK scientists have been completely unable, up until this point, to isolate a biological reason for why Native American people (in the United States) would be unable to "handle" alcohol as a psychoactive substance, compared to Americans of European extraction, or any other variety of human for that matter. That also wouldn't explain why people of such varied genetic origin such as Melanesian people (such as Aboriginal people in Australia) and Native American people in the United States would have such similar problems related to alcohol.

So, being that that's the case, I'm coming down on the side of, it's an issue related to an indigenous community coming into contact with "modernity" through the experience of colonialism. In other words, a social and cultural origin to the problem rather than biological. That's my perspective. Also, I'm in favor of the legalization and regulation of all psychoactive drugs.

Whenever you give a person freedom, there is always the possibility that they will use that freedom in a reckless, irresponsible or even destructive way. There is no way to completely eliminate that possibility other than to strip the person of that freedom. That's why I'm in favor of a policy that promotes, rather than inhibites freedom for the citizens. For literally every single recreational drug in existence, there are INVARIABLY cases where people run into serious life problems as a result of their use and abuse of the drug in question. In every case, you can point to examples and say, look, is the ability of people to get high really more important than the sad life circumstances of these people who ruined their lives, and possibly even the lives of other people who through no fault of their own were associated with this person in some way? That's the difference between someone with a libertarian rather than an authoritarian outlook on such social questions and problems, however. There is no "perfect" solution, there is only a trade-off to be made which will result in whatever the individual thinks is the optimal/preferable society based on their own viewpoints and inclinations. And personally, I'd rather live in a society with the drawbacks of freedom, rather than a society where everyone is made to march in lock-step based on the potential for social harm on this particular question of recreational drug use.

Especially as the question relates to the issue of substance abuse related to Native American communites, as 1) I'm not Native American myself, and thus it feels patronizing to advocate for such an authoritarian response to a problem like this, and 2) it doesn't, imo, address the nature of the problem in any kind of substantive way...it only addresses a symptom of the disease but does nothing to address the disease itself.

The situation you described regarding the Aborigines and various socially-corrosive trends is a situation directly comparable to where I'm from in Alaska. Alaska also has a unique history comparable to the situation regarding Native American in the rest of the United States, as the early experience was Russian, rather than British, colonialism and the trajectory of land and governmental policy was quite a bit different than it was elsewhere in the United States. Nevertheless, the social problems you alluded to are pretty much exactly the same.

Alaska's rate of sexual assault is four times national average, according to latest FBI numbers

Though reports of crime nationally are generally on the decline, by most measures Alaska is bucking that trend.

alaskapublic.org

US attorney general declares emergency for public safety in rural Alaska, freeing up $10.5 million to support police

The announcement comes a month after William P. Barr visited the state to hear concerns about a lack of police in rural communities.

www.adn.com

 

[simstim]

The are dry counties in my state too. Luckily I live in my states largest city so alcohol is sold at bars until 4am (2am in stores now, but when I turned 21 last call at the bar was at 3:30am and that meant you still had time to buy a cold 12 pack at the gas station before 4am on the way to the after party). Alcohol sales resume at 6am.

1 county away and alcohol can't be sold past midnight.

Several counties away and it is completely dry.

Here drugs and alcohol are the norm. I live in the hood so there are liquor stores and drug dealers on every corner.

Even though I quit drinking I can't imagine living in a dry county. Not only is alcohol stigmatized by the people who live there and illegal but drugs are more expensive and harder to find than in the city, too.

Most of my state is nothing like the city I live in.

 

[sunday.bird]

@Burnt Offerings

Your post is pretty long

Yeah, I tend to "Grandpa Simpson" a bit when I've had enough (too much?) ADHD meds... but, also, I didn't take super kindly to some of the venomous anti-Australian sentiment.

It seems (at a glance) that you're right about the genetic component being a myth... but - for me - that doesn't really matter. You have to consider the risks involved in any activity that is officially sanctioned by society. We expect cars to be safe, if car manufacturers are allowed to sell them. That's the world we live in.

There isn't much room for discussion (like I said) if one party holds a fundamentally pro-legalization stance.

You shouldn't be able to go into a bar and order a pint of bleach, IMO. If you want to go and buy bleach from a hardware store and drink it, so be it, but allowing businesses to put it on the wine list is bananas.

The vaccines are drugs. A lot of people here don't think they should be legal. I suspect those groups overlap.

...

Taking alcohol away doesn't solve all their problems, no.

These communities are toxic. If I had family there, I'd want to leave. Skin colour doesn't matter. Culture doesn't matter. Alcohol doesn't matter.

The welfare of children trumps (adult) freedom.

I don't see these communities getting miraculously better. The Australian government has tried to help. It's difficult to know what to do.

I don't hate white people because they have white skin. It's the mind virus that we carry that I hate. Call it the Crown, Commonwealth, the beast, whatever. This thing that we have that results in us attempting to wipe out any competing system and then turn around and demonize those who were conquered.

That mind virus (as you call it) is not specific to the Crown or to caucasians.

They were doing fine until we showed up.

By what modern standard were they doing fine?

And now the system wants to punish them for indulging in something that was foisted upon them by the system? Typical.

What is your solution?