News Alcohol laws can’t solve this’: NT Indigenous groups welcome new funding but urge longer-term solutions

[-=SS=-]

That mind virus (as you call it) is not specific to the Crown or to caucasians.

Didn't say it was, but it is the western (Roman empire 2.0) that has spread across the globe in the past 2 thousand years. If it was another group, say the Arabs or the Chinese, then I'd level the blame at them as required.

By what modern standard were they doing fine?

Why does 'modern' have any bearing at all on whether they are doing fine or not. It doesn't matter if they're living in straw huts, if they're not bothering anyone and are content in the way they live then who cares. I'll take the simple hunter gatherer or nomad over the 'modern' man that leaves a trail of destruction in his wake.

I detest people who think we are the pinnacle of human development according to the standards we define. It is circular logic and rationalization. You don't know there isn't another equal, or better, way of being. And you'll never know if you set arbitrary definitions according to your own biases. Material technology is only half the story.

What is your solution?

Leave them alone.

 

[sunday.bird]

Why does 'modern' have any bearing at all on whether they are doing fine or not. It doesn't matter if they're living in straw huts, if they're not bothering anyone and are content in the way they live then who cares. I'll take the simple hunter gatherer or nomad over the 'modern' man that leaves a trail of destruction in his wake.

That's fair enough. We don't have to agree.

I detest people who think we are the pinnacle of human development according to the standards we define.

Me, too.

You don't know there isn't another equal, or better, way of being. And you'll never know if you set arbitrary definitions according to your own biases. Material technology is only half the story.

I don't presume to know anything of the sort. I just asked you a question. It's a difficult question to answer. You gave me a roundabout answer.

I can have an opinion about what type of society I'd rather live in and raise my family in. I'm open minded to different ways of life.

I'd personally rather be alive - particularly as a woman or a gay person - in a modern western country than most (practically all) times/places throughout history.

it is the western (Roman empire 2.0) that has spread across the globe in the past 2 thousand years. If it was another group, say the Arabs or the Chinese, then I'd level the blame at them as required.

First of all, it's not like the Chinese and the Arabs didn't try... and that renders it all kind of meaningless for me, which is my point.

We hate ourselves because we were more successful doing the same thing everything else was trying to do? We weren't more cruel.

Also, most of the people on the planet are Chinese or Muslim... And what about Genghis?

What is your solution?

Leave them alone.

OK. So you say they were fine before we got here. Alcohol - which we introduced - has had (and continues to have) a devastating impact on indigenous communities.

So we fucked them up, now we leave them alone? They're asking for help. They've always asked for help.

Should we completely separate ourselves from the indigenous population? Should there be laws in these communities or welfare systems? Should there be police? Should they be part of Australia or should we give part of the country to them as a sovereign nation that they can run themselves?

Without the extraordinary efforts from western society to help indigenous people, there would be a hell of a lot more suffering.

The arguments, so far, against prohibition in these communities, has been theoretical. In practice, though, alcohol is toxic in these communities. The real world impact of our decisions are more important than obsessing about freedoms and rights... I assume nobody is arguing alcohol is good for these communities?

Is it more important (if you have to chose) to insist on maintaining certain freedoms than it is to protect people and keep them safe?

I suspect we have drastically different priorities when it comes to things like that. COVID has shown a clear difference between American and Australian/NZ values. The rest of the world thinks we're crazy. Maybe we are. If I was crazy, I probably wouldn't know. I think we're less paranoid than the US. Maybe that makes us naïve. Probably. We care less about rights than the US does, because we trust our government more. We don't trust them to be competent on a day to day basis or be remotely efficient with money. We trust them to have our best interests in mind, most of the time. This is why the Australian government did what it did during COVID.

I don't think what the government did was so much more outrageous than what happened in lots of other countries round the rest of the world.

Politicians aren't trained to deal with situations like this. They can hardly tie their shoes.

You've got the health experts saying, "in my professional opinion, you should do this".

You can either ignore that advice - and you're fucked - or you can take the advice... and you're still fucked.

Australian premiers and prime ministers aren't going to do anything radical. Our parliamentary system is super embarrassing, but at least we don't have people like Biden and Trump running the show. If the medical advice says "do this", that's what they're going to do. It's not such a crazy upside-down world.

There were pretty tight restrictions (during the pandemic) in many parts of the US too.

Australia isn't a shit-hole. It's not perfect, but nowhere is.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

I'd personally rather be alive - particularly as a woman or a gay person - in a modern western country than most (practically all) times/places throughout history.

Native americans had several roles constructed for trans people, for example, in their communities

 

[sunday.bird]

People are often adamant about how women and kids should be treated within our own society and what is "right" and "wrong"... and wee apply our value set when talking about other countries. We probably shouldn't. But we're human and we do. I'm glad my nationality doesn't celebrate culture much, once they migrate. If you are two generations removed from Scotland and you wear a kilt, you're a unicorn. I don't eat Haggis.

Culture includes such random shit. Food. Clothes. Who honestly gives a shit? It it is maddening to think that everybody dress in a certain way and eat certain things because of where they're located geographically. It's so fucking random. Australians believe this. Americans believe that. Like we're all a hive mind.

Native americans had several roles constructed for trans people, for example, in their communities

It amazes me that this is now expected to be accepted as any kind of standard.

They also used to take sex slaves from other tribes and scalp people. Didn't they?

People romanticize that culture but I think while British history was bloody and awful... so was theirs. Right?

I reject the idea that everything was hunky dory for minorities in indigenous Australian communities prior to the arrival of British colonists and I stand by what I said about preferring to be a woman alive now than a native American woman at any point prior to colonization... or a woman in any other time/place throughout all of history.

The Right to Kill

Should Brazil keep its Amazon tribes from taking the lives of their children?

foreignpolicy.com

 

[-=SS=-]

We hate ourselves because we were more successful doing the same thing everything else was trying to do? We weren't more cruel.

You might hate yourself for the past. I don't. It's the recognition, or rather than ignorance of, how history actually went down and why that bothers me. The winners write history. A pertinent example to this conversation is the South American's and the Spanish that obliterated them, and who then made up a bunch of bullshit about their savage nature to excuse what crimes they (Spanish) had just committed. I don't know what metric your cruelty scale is based in, but barbarism is barbarism regardless of the level of sophistication, whether it be Genghis or British Imperialism.

Genghis didn't come up with the idea of concentration camps or eugenics. Both of those are British innovations.

Is it more important (if you have to chose) to insist on maintaining certain freedoms than it is to protect people and keep them safe?

It is not the governments job to keep people safe at the expense of some other asset, especially freedom.

As for your excuses for the Australian governments response during covid, I could write an entire dissertation on that subject. But in the interest of time and my blood pressure, I'll keep it to a short statement; the Australian government, and a large section of the public, are corrupt and fucked in the head.

 

[sunday.bird]

I don't hate myself at all. There was a question mark. I didn't phrase it very clearly.

I mentioned Genghis because you said:

it is the western (Roman empire 2.0) that has spread across the globe in the past 2 thousand years. If it was another group, say the Arabs or the Chinese, then I'd level the blame at them as required.

People focus too much hate on Christianity and white people. It's mostly white people who do this. We're hardly the villains of history.

I don't feel guilty about something that people - who happen to have the same skin colour as me - did long before my family first moved to Australia.

You mentioned the Roman empire. Not everyone is Italian. Rather than hating white people, why not hate nations according to the top 5 (or 10 or whatever) most successful over the past two thousand years.

Damn Mongolians.

It is not the governments job to keep people safe at the expense of some other asset, especially freedom.

What about cars?

 

[-=SS=-]

People focus too much hate on Christianity and white people. It's mostly white people who do this. We're hardly the villains of history.

Roman empire, the dark ages, the Spanish Inquisition, the inquisition throughout Europe, the colonial and imperial empires of European nations, the purging of natives on the North American continent, land confiscation and industrial slavery (for all colours) domestically, the East India Company, the Opium wars, and a catalogue of wars, conflicts, and political purges by the Anglo-American empire in the 20th century (the entire South American continent, again, by the CIA), the development and use of nuclear weapons, and on, and on, and on...

You can argue that another creed or culture would have done the same if they got the chance. I accept that. But they didn't. We did. And you have to accept that.

The Catholic Church/Roman Empire 2.0 deserves all the hate in the world. They are the worlds greatest hypocrites and the root of all of this bullshit. Bunch of nonce sorcerers. They are as far away from Jesus as you could possibly be.

What about cars?

How long have you worked for the government?

 

[Foreigner]

"White people"

I would classify it more as the Northern hemisphere enslaving the Southern, which makes a lot more sense of you think about it in terms of natural climates, resource limitations, etc.

The North tends to have lighter skinned peoples because of reduced sunlight.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

You're right about the genetic component being a myth... but - for me - that doesn't really matter. You have to consider the risks involved in any activity that is officially sanctioned by society. We expect cars to be safe, if car manufacturers are allowed to sell them. That's the world we live in.

There isn't much room for discussion (like I said) if one party holds a fundamentally pro-legalization stance.

You shouldn't be able to go into a bar and order a pint of bleach, IMO. If you want to go and buy bleach from a hardware store and drink it, so be it, but allowing businesses to put it on the wine list is bananas.

The vaccines are drugs. A lot of people here don't think they should be legal. I suspect those groups overlap.

...

Taking alcohol away doesn't solve all their problems, no.

These communities are toxic. If I had family there, I'd want to leave. Skin colour doesn't matter. Culture doesn't matter. Alcohol doesn't matter.

The welfare of children trumps (adult) freedom.

I don't see these communities getting miraculously better. The Australian government has tried to help. It's difficult to know what to do.
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

Prohibition is what led to poison being sold as alcohol. Currently you can walk into any bar or liquor store in the USA, buy alcohol and be assured that that's what you're drinking. That's what I'd like to see happen for all drugs (except perhaps not commercialized, but rather dispensed in measured, pharmaceutically-pure doses at government-run safe access points.)

Prohibition is exactly what I"m arguing against, for Native Americans and for everyone else for that matter.

You can use child well-being to curtain any freedom or right you want. There are a lot of people today who say that the mere existence of homosexuals in public life is a threat to the well-being of children, maybe we should ban homosexuality? Or literally any other form of behavior that people may find objectionable, "for the kids?" We already did that with drugs and we saw how well that turned out. It's a potent rhetorical weapon because everyone agrees that it's important to protect children. If children are being victimized then prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law...that doesn't give you carte blanche to restrict the rights of people who've done nothing wrong

As far as what the best solution is, I'd leave that to the people of the community. If they want to ban alcohol then fine, I think that's dumb but whatever. As far as what "white people" can do, help make them make material investments in their community, build bonds of genuine trust and partnership, etc...it won't be easy and it'll be a long haul but it's better than deceptively-quick "fixes" which aren't actually fixes at all imo

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Prohibition is what led to poison being sold as alcohol. Currently you can walk into any bar or liquor store in the USA, buy alcohol and be assured that that's what you're drinking. That's what I'd like to see happen for all drugs (except perhaps not commercialized, but rather dispensed in measured, pharmaceutically-pure doses at government-run safe access points.)

Prohibition is exactly what I"m arguing against, for Native Americans and for everyone else for that matter.

You can use child well-being to curtain any freedom or right you want. There are a lot of people today who say that the mere existence of homosexuals in public life is a threat to the well-being of children, maybe we should ban homosexuality? Or literally any other form of behavior that people may find objectionable, "for the kids?" We already did that with drugs and we saw how well that turned out. It's a potent rhetorical weapon because everyone agrees that it's important to protect children. If children are being victimized then prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law...that doesn't give you carte blanche to restrict the rights of people who've done nothing wrong

As far as what the best solution is, I'd leave that to the people of the community. If they want to ban alcohol then fine, I think that's dumb but whatever. As far as what "white people" can do, help make them make material investments in their community, build bonds of genuine trust and partnership, etc...it won't be easy and it'll be a long haul but it's better than deceptively-quick "fixes" which aren't actually fixes at all imo

 

[Dropperneck]

They did the same thing with the natives here, but tbf they really can’t handle booze, biologically. Also aussie is one of the biggest nanny states on the planet, so I don’t get why it would be surprising. So authoritarian and neo liberal. Reminds me of Jessfr

 

[Delmonte421]

Yes I can believe this colonizing attempt to keep the locals under control... they did the same to indigenous americans and no doubt like colonies.
They also outlawed the peyote and other natural medicines that native americans used for many hundreds/thousands of years.

I have only seen buttons once and it didn't do anything to me, only ate 4 grams..... is mescaline around? I took 2c-p which heard is pretty close

 

[Delmonte421]

"The Central Australian Aboriginal Congress also welcomed the restrictions and additional funding."

Apparently the Aboriginal people are for it.

I would love to try some real blue buttons

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Will this actually do anything? In the USA and Canada the native reservations do not allow alcohol to be sold there. But this does not stop people from making alcohol, buying alcohol, or hypothetically making and using other drugs. I don't mean growing marijuana, Psilocybin mushrooms, or people growing San Pedro or peyote cacti; but I mean people cooking METH.

On some reservations I have went to, there are no bars or stores that sell alcohol. But once you leave the reservation land, there are stores selling alcohol, bars, etc. right near the reservation that anyone can easily go to.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

So, this thread is very openly anti-Australian.

I'm not offended... In fact, I get it. I understand the outrage.

There is one law for white communities and another law for Aboriginal communities. This is technically discrimination, which is usually a racist thing. It is more complicated than that, though.

Some Americans here have drawn comparisons to comparable historic situations involving Native Americans. I'm not familiar with American history, so I can't say whether or not the situation is the same.

Alcohol prohibition in indigenous Australian communities won't end up like Chicago (or whatever) in the 1930s. I'm no expert on that era, obviously... but I know the gist of it.

If they tried to do an alcohol ban in Melbourne, people would go ape-shit for a while and then it'd all go black market and moonshine. There's already a lot of hobbyists making batch alcohol in spite of the government tightly restricting our ability to do so on private land. If they introduced prohibition, all they'd be doing is feeding money to criminals.

Indigenous communities in Australia (I'm not taking about Alice yet) aren't like major Australian cities. They might as well be in a different (third world) country.

There is widespread poverty and in some areas (world) record breaking rates of child sexual assault. Incest rates are very high. Statistically I think Aboriginal people are less likely to drink but way more likely to abuse alcohol if they do drink.

Indigenous Australians - just remembered we're not supposed to say Aboriginal anymore - never consumed alcohol. They existed almost completely isolated from the rest of the world throughout all of modern and ancient history... The introduction of alcohol has had a devastating effect on their way of life. For whatever reason, it behaves like a much harder drug when they consume it.

There is a biological factor, I think... but, it doesn't matter. The reason is irrelevant.

When men, women and children in a community are suffering to that extent because of a drug (any drug) it should be controlled.

Absolute freedom is not more important than safety.

A lot of you wonderful BL people have declared your fundamentalism in regards to legalization. I don't know who of you belongs to this tribe, but I remember being surprised repeatedly how many otherwise rational people could possibly think that everything should be legal for production and sale.

I understand legal for consumption. That I agree with. Doesn't matter what it is. People can do whatever the fuck they want.

I also don't think people should be criminally punished for producing their own drugs that they intend to consume themselves. They shouldn't be allowed to sell the drugs publicly. Perhaps - if caught - selling could be treated more like tax fraud rather than trafficking. Make everything legal for consumption and home production, but slap big fines (on top of the estimated tax owed) for anyone who profits by selling their stash.

I don't know. That's just of the top of my head.

If people in Indigenous communities go to the effort to make home-brew, let them drink it.

It gets worse than Alice Springs, but it is fucked up there. They don't need pubs and bottle shops on every corner. It isn't helping.

People (indigenous and alien) blame British colonists for destroying Indigenous culture. The little I know about native American history revolves around stuff I've seen in US film/TV. Having investigated Australian history somewhat, what we did pales in comparison to the British colonists who established the USA. Australia has a bade reputation that it doesn't deserve.



As for the COVID stuff, there was definitely government overreach but I think you're being a bit dramatic.

You might be a self-hating white person... Or is it just the Commonwealth you hate?

You should be proud.

I am.



If alcohol is as much of a problem in native American communities as it is in Indigenous Australian communities, why (when all other drugs are illegal) should it be legal?

I think we'd generally be better off - all of us - without alcohol. You could replace it with any of the mainstream natural psychedelics (as the only legal drug) and that one tweak would radically transform society.

The toxicity in white Australian culture mostly comes from alcohol. I go to a lot of pubs at work. I've been to maybe sixty pubs in the past half year. There are always miserable drunks that say fuck every three words who are inches away from a fight. Insecure testosterone-fuelled animals, talking shit like their mouths are assholes.

What people describe as male toxicity isn't how men are naturally. It's a culture of shit.

If you give someone acid in a safe controlled environment where they feel calm and they're not conflicted, you will see their true state.

I don't want my kids drinking alcohol excessively, but I'm not going to tell them not to drink ever. I haven't had a drink in nine months, but I'm determined to conquer my drinking problems so I will return at some point.

I will say to my kids: don't do crack or heroin or meth ever... and never use needles.

If a community wants to reach it's full potential, the leaders of that community need to think about what's best. This is a trial and error process.

The crime in Alice is already down.

Some people - like those who don't drink and are sick of the chaos - are thankful.

Takeaway booze ban has positive effect on Alice Springs' crime rate

The crime crisis sweeping Alice Springs has seen a "dramatic improvement" since the introduction of a two-day ban on takeaway alcohol as a decision looms over whether to reinstate blanket liquor restrictions.

www.skynews.com.au

How is the legal sale of alcohol more of a priority than domestic violence, assault and armed break ins?

If prohibition works, it works. If it doesn't it doesn't.

I'm not even slightly racist towards Indigenous Australians. I'm sympathetic. I'd like to help. We'd all like to help... but, there's only so much you can do.

I'm not related to colonists. My family has only been here for four or five generations. Most of the country isn't related to colonists.

It seems cruel to not try and help, but - like I said - what can you do?



This is by far the most racist comment in the thread. Congratulations.

I'm proud to call myself an Australian.

I'd rather be Australian than any other nationality on the planet.

If I was English, I'd be proud too.

Our politicians are ridiculous and embarrassing. I hate Australian politics, but there are a lot of great things about this country.

We overreach with pandemics - sure - but we also overreach with care and support. You don't have to worry when you live here. That's why people are generally happier here, despite all the bushwacking and what not. We've got plenty of miserable people, but we're happier (I think) than the British or the Americans. Generally speaking. On average, or whatever. I'm very stoned.

I work in disability. Most people I support don't use all of their funding because it is more than they need. That's the way it should be. The cost of living is high, but the money is well spent IMO.

I've lived in four countries on four continents. I love all of them in different ways.

You should come visit us.

We like foreigners.

...

For the record, I think this thread is fine. I don't like some of the opinions expressed here about my wonderful country, but that's cool. I don't like China sometimes. Then, I remember: there's over a billion people there.

There hasn't been much effort ITT (minus the tangential discussion and the anti-Aussie stuff) to discuss the reason this ban was implemented and/or the success rate of the history of prohibition in Indigenous communities.

As I said, there isn't much room for discussion if you believe in legalizing everything.

I believe there are things that are good for society and there are also bad things.

I'd rather certain drugs be legal and certain drugs be illegal.

That's where we are heading with weed and mushrooms.

How do aboriginal/Indigenous Australians react to alcohol as though it is a hard drug? Do natives from the Torres Strait Islands react this way? Is it like how Asians and many Native Americans/Indigenous Canadians lack a gene so they get drunk faster than European people do? I have friends from Korea, Hong Kong, Pakistan, and India and I have personally seen them become extremely drunk off of low quantities of alcohol.

 

[sunday.bird]

Leave them alone.

So you didn't explain what this means, exactly.

Aboriginal Australians are forced to comply by federal and state laws like all other Australians. If they steal a car, they go to jail.

Should they exist outside of the law?

Are they Australian?

Should we split the country in two so they can live like they used to live before those damn colonists arrived and ruined everything?

Should we leave the country and give it back to them?

I'm genuinely curious. Can you elaborate?

...

It doesn't seem fair to me that an Indigenous child has to suffer because of their race. We have standards in society of how children should be treated. Do we have different standards of Ukrainian kids? Or kids in Afghanistan? Do we have different standards for Indigenous Australian kids?

There was no age of consent in Australia before the colonists arrived. Neonaticide (the killing of children under one month old) happened with something like 50% of births, prior to colonisation. They did this because life was so hard that they couldn't sustain all of their offspring and there was no contraception.

We look back at our own history and judge our ancestors for how they treated women and racial minorities and gay men, etc... and we judge other modern civilizations (China, Russia, Islamic countries)... but then we look at primitive Indigenous countries and just say: leave them to it.

I don't get it.

Nobody here seems to really care about Indigenous Australian kids. You guys seem to care more about drug legality?

Will this actually do anything?

That's one of the most important questions here, as far as I'm concerned.

I care about what works to help these people... and, yes, it does seem to work (to some extent, at least).

There is an immediately positive effect on these communities when alcohol sales are restricted.

Crime in Alice has dropped hugely.

The internal police data found alcohol was a factor in 76% of the domestic violence incidents they attended in the first week of January, before restrictions were reintroduced, with alcohol-related incidents down during the past three months between 45% and 67%.

The report also found that reported levels of property break-ins were down by nearly 46% and youth offences were down by 36% after the restrictions were brought.

Alice Springs police data shows drop in reported crimes after strict alcohol laws introduced

Domestic and family violence calls down more than 30% after restrictions came in as advocates warn primary drivers of harm must be addressed

www.theguardian.com

That quote is from police data. It's a big piece of the puzzle, but it's not a complete image. It's hard to measure the damage these restrictions do that don't amount to police statistics.

If you're an Indigenous kid and your parents are alcoholics, you're probably going to have a pretty rough week when they suddenly stop drinking... but - then - maybe the stability that comes with time will make up for that and more. I don't believe anything 100%. I don't presume to know the answer to any question.

If the immediate benefits of kicking heroin don't outweigh the pain you have to go through to get clean, is it not worth getting clean?

Prohibition is what led to poison being sold as alcohol

Not in Islamic countries. There's also not a lot of Indigenous people making their own booze when these restrictions come into place. The government has been doing them, on and off, for many decades. I've never heard of an underground Indigenous alcohol mafia.

Reminds me of Jessfr

I miss seeing Jess on here. She's a good egg. You can send us more like her, if you got em.

You can use child well-being to curtain any freedom or right you want. There are a lot of people today who say that the mere existence of homosexuals in public life is a threat to the well-being of children, maybe we should ban homosexuality? Or literally any other form of behavior that people may find objectionable, "for the kids?"

The consumption of alcohol in these communities results in little kids being fucked. Homosexuality doesn't result in kids being fucked. There is a community (forget the name of the town, I think it's in Western Australia) that has the highest rate of child sex abuse in the world. There is also a massive child pornography problem in lots of these communities which - again - is linked to alcohol.

Alcohol is huge problem. Homosexuality isn't a huge problem. It was at various points during history, which is (probably) why it was illegal in the first place, but it isn't now.

If children are being victimized then prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law...that doesn't give you carte blanche to restrict the rights of people who've done nothing wrong

They do that already though (prosecute offenders) and kids are still being abused at an unacceptable rate*. So - since that isn't really working - shouldn't we try to find a solution so that kids aren't being abused?

*YMMV; what is unacceptable to me may be okay for you.

...

I don't think anyone ITT has been to Alice. Most of you probably haven't ever visited the country?

It's a bit hard to have an informed opinion unless you try to bridge that gap by doing a bit of research.

There are some remote areas of Australia with high Indigenous populations that would do better without alcohol. They have extremely high rates of alcohol related birth defects and extremely high rates of incestual child rape. These children don't care about the word prohibition. They just don't want to live in a nightmare.

I understand the attitudes expressed here, particularly since this is a drug forum... but I care more about the kids than my own politics.

If it comes down to a question of what works and what doesn't work, nobody here has even attempted to construct an argument against prohibition in Alice... other than talking about prohibition in the 1930s in the USA.

I'm sure a handful of Indigenous people will start making their own booze, but it requires a fairly high level of functionality to build an empire and I don't see that happening in small towns in NT/WA/QLD.

If alcohol was illegal in Melbourne and I had to make all my own, I would drink less. I'm actually planning on trying this experiment soon. I already have the equipment to make small (legal) batches of beer and cider. I don't like buying products. I don't like labels or slogans or advertisements. The whole commercial process depresses me. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth... I'm getting off track.

Some people think I'm an alcoholic. I'm not an lifelong alcoholic. I don't believe in incurable alcoholism.

Alcohol has been super toxic in my life when I've been depressed or under a lot of stress. During those stages of my life, I've been an alcoholic.

I know how toxic alcohol can be. People in fucked up situations shouldn't drink.

Taking alcohol away from me during these chaotic alcoholic stages of my life is the best thing you can do for me. I used to wish it was illegal, rather than something deeply embedded in our culture and sold on every street corner and offered to me during every meal.

Curious what our Australian members think about this issue. Americans tend to care more about rights than outcomes.

How do aboriginal/Indigenous Australians react to alcohol as though it is a hard drug? Do natives from the Torres Strait Islands react this way? Is it like how Asians and many Native Americans/Indigenous Canadians lack a gene so they get drunk faster than European people do? I have friends from Korea, Hong Kong, Pakistan, and India and I have personally seen them become extremely drunk off of low quantities of alcohol.

@Burnt Offerings said there is no evidence of a biological factor with Indigenous Australians. I thought there was, but I've had a brief glance online and it seems not.

I'm coming down on the side of, it's an issue related to an indigenous community coming into contact with "modernity" through the experience of colonialism. In other words, a social and cultural origin to the problem rather than biological. That's my perspective.

I agree to some extent.

The sudden arrival of the modern world has to be traumatic on a primitive society, but - after that trauma has had time to settle - something else happens.

These cultures attempt to co-exist as primitive societies and modern societies.

I tend to think they'd be better off in either direction, but certainly better off assimilating to the modern world.

My ancestors were Vikings. Doesn't mean I need to rape and pillage. The Vikings became Scotsmen. You won't see me wearing a kilt.

We all need to move forward.

Primitive societies are romanticized by generations who grew up watching Pocahontas.

That's my opinion. I don't tell people who are obsessed with culture that they should shed it, but I feel sorry for them. Culture is baggage, spiritually. It makes no sense to stay in a toxic community because you are a prisoner to your race. This is a multi-cultural country. Indigenous folks don't need to live out in the middle of nowhere. I don't know who it benefits?

If I was Indigenous and I lived in a shit-hole, I'd move.

If I was white, same thing.

If they legalized crack cocaine and there became a big crack problem in my suburb, I would 100% support efforts to make it illegal again. Call me crazy.

How do aboriginal/Indigenous Australians react to alcohol as though it is a hard drug?

I'll rephrase: they are more likely (for whatever reason) to develop severe alcoholism along with everything else that follows statistically. Because of the rates of child abuse in these communities, the impact is worse.

Indigenous communities had primitive values when the colonists arrived. Indigenous men would commonly sell their wife / daughter for a day worth of alcohol. Mothers killed around half of the children they birthed. Combine alcohol with these values and the result isn't good.

Primitive values aren't good because they're primitive.

Islamic values aren't good because they're Islamic.

Medieval values aren't good because they're medieval.

We either have values or we don't.

We either care how children (of all skin colours) are treated, or we don't.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Not in Islamic countries.

I don't know what gave you that idea but you are sadly mistaken

Methanol poisoning: Death by ignorance and taboo

Experts say treating poisoning from bootleg liquor as a moral issue not a disease is risking lives.

www.bbc.com

At least 22 dead, 16 hospitalized from bootleg alcohol poisoning in Istanbul

Four suspects have been arrested in connection with the deaths, the Istanbul governor's office said in a statement.

www.cbsnews.com

There's also not a lot of Indigenous people making their own booze when these restrictions come into place. The government has been doing them, on and off, for many decades. I've never heard of an underground Indigenous alcohol mafia.

People are still going to want to consume alcohol. Prohibition isn't going to stop that. What's going to stop people from transporting alcohol within Australia, a nation that already has legalized alcohol consumption for citizens generally-speaking, into areas where prohibition is in effect to sell at a profit?

That's exactly what happens in my part of the world. People buy alcohol where its legal, then transport it to rural communities where prohibition is in effect to sell for 5X or even 10X what they paid for it. There is no way that the state could effectively mitigate this without substantially infringing upon or violating the civil rights of many other people OUTSIDE of the communities where these substances are consumed...ie exactly what happened during America's run with prohibition, and the American drug war from the 1970s to the present day

The consumption of alcohol in these communities results in little kids being fucked. Homosexuality doesn't result in kids being fucked. There is a community (forget the name of the town, I think it's in Western Australia) that has the highest rate of child sex abuse in the world. There is also a massive child pornography problem in lots of these communities which - again - is linked to alcohol.

Linked to alcohol huh. Tell me, when you get piss drunk, do you wanna fuck kids? Obviously there are some much larger issues involved then merely the presence of alcohol. In the situation you're describing people will probably resort to huffing gasoline, drinking nail polish or sniffing glue if they don't have access to regular booze

Homosexuality isn't a huge problem. It was at various points during history, which is (probably) why it was illegal in the first place, but it isn't now.

Not sure what exactly you mean by this part but ok

They do that already though (prosecute offenders) and kids are still being abused at an unacceptable rate*. So - since that isn't really working - shouldn't we try to find a solution so that kids aren't being abused?

*YMMV; what is unacceptable to me may be okay for you.

If children are being victimized than prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law, as said. That doesn't mean its OK to violate wholesale the rights of a community just because of the heinous acts of a minority of its population. The law isn't just about what's the "easiest" solution to a social question, if that were the case then there wouldn't be any civil rights for anyone. If someone is using a certain right to be able to skirt around the law, hey, why should we even have that right at all huh? Get rid of it! Or at least, get rid of the right for those problematic people over there...that sounds too much like "rights for me but not for thee" kind of attitude.

Curious what our Australian members think about this issue. Americans tend to care more about rights than outcomes.

I care very much about outcomes. I care very much about preventing an outcome in which the citizen's rights are undermined, circumscribed or destroyed by a paternalistic "nanny state"

That's my opinion. I don't tell people who are obsessed with culture that they should shed it, but I feel sorry for them. Culture is baggage, spiritually. It makes no sense to stay in a toxic community because you are a prisoner to your race. This is a multi-cultural country. Indigenous folks don't need to live out in the middle of nowhere. I don't know who it benefits?

If I was Indigenous and I lived in a shit-hole, I'd move.

That seems arrogant to me. You don't know these people's life circumstances or abilities to leave their culture and family behind. Culture is something that enriches a person's life, not takes away from it. I would much rather live in a rural locale where I can freely consume an alcoholic drink if I so choose and don't have the rest of society up my ass, breathing down my neck and speculating on what rights I should or should not have

 

[sunday.bird]

I care very much about outcomes. I care very much about preventing an outcome in which the citizen's rights are undermined, circumscribed or destroyed by a paternalistic "nanny state"

Do you care more about that outcome than about the welfare of Indigenous children? (Because it seems like you do.)

I don't know what gave you that idea but you are sadly mistaken

I'm not sadly mistaken. I was making a generalization. I'm sure it happens but it's rare. There isn't a huge problem in Islamic countries with bootleg alcohol. There is no Chicago crime spree resulting from prohibition.

My point is: prohibition behaves differently in different areas of the world.

That seems arrogant to me. You don't know these people's life circumstances or abilities to leave their culture and family behind. Culture is something that enriches a person's life, not takes away from it. I would much rather live in a rural locale where I can freely consume an alcoholic drink if I so choose and don't have the rest of society up my ass, breathing down my neck and speculating on what rights I should or should not have

Society has always defined what rights we have. You live according to local laws and so do I.

If you're a black fella and you want to go and live in an remote Indigenous community, go for it... but don't blame white people for all your problems. You don't have to stay in that toxic environment.

If children are being victimized than prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law, as said. That doesn't mean its OK to violate wholesale the rights of a community just because of the heinous acts of a minority of its population. The law isn't just about what's the "easiest" solution to a social question, if that were the case then there wouldn't be any civil rights for anyone. If someone is using a certain right to be able to skirt around the law, hey, why should we even have that right at all huh? Get rid of it! Or at least, get rid of the right for those problematic people over there...that sounds too much like "rights for me but not for thee" kind of attitude.

Again, I don't care about rights. Neither do the kids being fucked.

I care about the kids. I care about what works.

Linked to alcohol huh. Tell me, when you get piss drunk, do you wanna fuck kids? Obviously there are some much larger issues involved then merely the presence of alcohol. In the situation you're describing people will probably resort to huffing gasoline, drinking nail polish or sniffing glue if they don't have access to regular booze

No, when I drink I don't get the urge to fuck kids. That's not what I'm saying. Clearly there are much larger issues. The culture is toxic. They have primitive values that don't reflect how we expect women/children to be treated in the modern world. That (in combination with alcohol) is the biggest issue. I feel like I'm repeating myself.

There is a problem with petrol / glue regardless of whether or not alcohol sale is prohibited.

What's going to stop people from transporting alcohol within Australia, a nation that already has legalized alcohol consumption for citizens generally-speaking, into areas where prohibition is in effect to sell at a profit?

Geography is the main thing that prevents this, but it depends on what town we're talking about.

Some of these areas are extremely remote and there is only desert for hours in any direction.

Alcohol consumption (and alcohol related crime) goes down massively when prohibition is introduced in these areas.

Logically, you might think they'd start producing their own alcohol in large quantities but (largely) they don't... also you'd think they'd start importing it from other local towns. I'm sure this happens to a certain extent, but - like I said - alcohol consumption (and alcohol related crime) is WAY down in Alice. Reported domestic assault incidents are down something like 75% last time I checked.

It seems like if you had a choice between alcohol being legal and domestic assault being reduced by 75%, you'd choose the former... which only benefits the abusers (and not the victims) in that situation.