COMMUNITY PROJECT - Creating an "effects profile" for psychedelics

Xorkoth

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FYI, I'm bolding and highlighting snippets from peoples' posts that should stand out as things to consider. I've also renamed this thread and I decided to sticky it. I think we should consider this a community project and we should all chip in as much as possible. If this bothers people for some reason I am open to change, as I would like this to be a community project.
 

Ptah

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If ID is the main objective then I propose to confine the statistics to things like duration, dosage and common carriers.
 

Solipsis

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Ptah said:
If ID is the main objective then I propose to confine the statistics to things like duration, dosage and common carriers.

That's not an objective at all, and if someone would conclude an ID from survey results I'd call it abuse of a project that is little more than a collection of profiles produced by averaged discrete subjective experience results. ;)

Xorkoth said:
Hell, this could even be useful not as a means for IDing a substance, but as a much more detailed and accurate way of creating lists of possible effects for a substance. Perhaps it would be better to think of it that way. One could look up a substanjce they're curious about and see that, out of 1000 respondents, for example, their substance has a list of, say, 20 different specific types of effects that at least 50% of respondents selected, and a list of 20 others that hardly anyone chose. That could provide some useful information for a person that is based off of a large number of peoples' experiences, rather than off of a single writer's subjective experience with it.

One trip report is a totally skewed and subjective result, and still I'm sure people draw their own conclusions from them. To set up surveys that add up subjective results through defined criteria would be to add together all credibility from all these single experiences. The only thing we need to do is not look upon it as actual evidence of anything! It's nothing more than a statistical analysis of reported effects. Don't think you can use it to ID any unidentified sample, but draw other conclusions from it as you may, because what a - hopefully big - number of people say together is probably more reliable than anything one single person can ever say!
Let's say only 30 out of 1000 people who used HO-DiPT reported vomiting. I ask of you: is it wrong to calculate your own risk of vomiting and do the same for other positive or negative (side-)effects? To me it seems dandy in addition to doing your homework on it which probably doesn't get you any further than "you may vomit". If 1 out of 1000 actually died from the same substance (and let's say the person would still be able to complete the survey 8) ) personally I think it's good that people would calculate their own risk from that, it's what I'd call an educated guess which is done all the time in the world of psychedelics because it often is all you have. If a person knows the statistics, still takes the substance, and dies as well - I'd still say the survey has done it's job because the person died knowing which chance he took. I know I said you shouldn't see the survey as evidence of anything, that's the whole point here - statistics is the game and you better damn well know it if you want to play.
 
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Recept

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I definately agree that ID should not be an objective at all for this project. It would just be very interesting to see how certain subjective effects compare from compound to compound.

Solipsys said:
As for color perception, ... It certainly seems to me it doesn't work randomly for that matter. And maybe there's a pattern here too.
Maybe there isn't and you might quite possibly be right it is a worthless inquiry, but I don't see it doing any harm either
Yes, I would also like to see whether there is or isn't any patterns. It would be a win to find out either way.


Edit: I'm stoned right now and I'm having trouble reading the highlighted parts of the thread right now for some reason. Perhaps pink is not the right color for these (hint ;) ) Anyway, I'm gonna read those later and probably gonna come up with more comments. It seems definately a very interesting project, but needs to be very well thought through (yikes! I can't believe I just typed that)
 

egor

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Ilumaniti boys results should be a good starting point>

http://forums.lycaeum.org/index.php/topic,4162.0.html

I would like to see the lesser known substances (2c-tfm, doef, 5-meo-tmt, 2-me-dmt, etc) included as well

I have to agree that color perception is too widely variable to be of much use from a scientific strandpoint. If you factor in things like color-blindness, it becomes even less useful
 

swilow

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Personally- I am not thinking this is a valid idea. I'm sorry, but there are WAY too many variables. I would love to see this happen, but I honestly think that it places our member and moderators at real legal risk. For me, I doubt that I'll get involved because it is fruitless to pin any sort of logic or reason on psychedelic events. I am not up for this sorry.
 

Ptah

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Solipsys said:
statistics is the game and you better damn well know it if you want to play.
Unfortunately most people aren't very bright.
Just look at the sheer number of Bluelight posters who subconsciously or not consider it a good joke to damage themselves by taking huge amounts of drugs.
There are others who again subconsciously or not believe that the ego can be destroyed permanently by those same means.
I still have to meet the person who achieved success with thát hare-brained scheme.
I have however met several who failed. Disastrously if you ask me.

Lets make "harm reduction" #1 again plz.
 

egor

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willow11 said:
Personally- I am not thinking this is a valid idea. I'm sorry, but there are WAY too many variables. I would love to see this happen, but I honestly think that it places our member and moderators at real legal risk. For me, I doubt that I'll get involved because it is fruitless to pin any sort of logic or reason on psychedelic events. I am not up for this sorry.



I have to agree about the legal risk and I think we may be far better off moving it to a private forum, BL is just too well known for this:(
 

e1evene1even

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Samadhi Smiles said:
I have been behind the idea as an exercise in creativity that may produce something very useful for the community.


I tend to agree. What starts here doesn't have to end here. Who knows what could evolve out of this? Something fun and interesting or perhaps something that could save someones life some day? Its impossible to tell at this point, but squashing the idea right out of the gate seems almost anti-psychedelic. There is certainly a lot of people interested...


http://www.music-map.com

^ For those that haven't seen this site check it out, its a very interesting concept. Perhaps there are some elements that could be incorporated here. "Taste" in music is very subjective so the mapping techniques used in this site could be quite valuable for something as equally subjective as psychedelics.




Welcome to Gnod's world of music...
Even if you don't know what you are looking for - gnod will find it.

Gnod is a self-adapting system that learns about the outer world by asking its visitors what they like and what they don't like. In this instance of gnod all is about music. Gnod is kind of a search engine for music you don't know about. It will ask you what music you like and then think about what you might like too. When I set gnod online its database was completely empty. Now it contains thousands of bands and quite some knowledge about who likes what. And gnod learns more every day. Enjoy :eek:)

http://www.gnoosic.com/

Welcome to the world of Gnod!
Gnod is my experiment in the field of artificial intelligence. Its a self-adapting system, living on this server and 'talking' to everyone who comes along. Gnods intention is to learn about the outer world and to learn 'understanding' its visitors. This enables gnod to share all its wisdom with you in an intuitive and efficient way. You might call it a search-engine to find things you don't know about.

http://www.gnod.net/
 
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5-HT2

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I honestly don't see the legal risk in this if we include the appropriate disclaimers beforehand, like Erowid does.
 

Xorkoth

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Ptah said:
Unfortunately most people aren't very bright.
Just look at the sheer number of Bluelight posters who subconsciously or not consider it a good joke to damage themselves by taking huge amounts of drugs.
There are others who again subconsciously or not believe that the ego can be destroyed permanently by those same means.
I still have to meet the person who achieved success with thát hare-brained scheme.
I have however met several who failed. Disastrously if you ask me.

Lets make "harm reduction" #1 again plz.

I agree, let's make harm reduction #1. But what about this is against harm reduction? And also, how is this a legal risk? All that would be done is a gathering of survey results. I'm not sure I really see this as something dangerous.

Again, as long as this isn't claimed to be any sort of end-all, be-all informational source, I can't see the harm. Will it be difficult? Yes. But that's no reason not to do it. IMO.
 

Xorkoth

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Ptah said:
What purpose would it serve?

It would provide a very interesting and statistically significant way to determine what effects are reported with each substance, and with what frequency they are reported, taken over a large base of people who have reported on it. This would allow all sorts of interesting observations to be made.

For example, some people say that all of the 2C-X class is pretty similar, while others find big differences in them. Wouldn't it be interesting to gather lots of responses and eventually be able to determine what the collective population really thinks about that?

And once again I'd like to mention that this idea has grown, from originally a possible way to ID substances, to now as a database of information gathered on reported effects. My vision of it is specifically not as a method of IDing a substance. People might end up using it to try to ID their unknown substance, but then, currently people look up some little list of possible effects on Erowid and try to narrow it down that way. this would provide a far more comprehensive and objective list (objective because it's an aggregation of many peoples' subjective experiences). of course people would report all sorts of different effects. But one would think that after hundreds or thousands of responses were gathered, some sort of general "average" list of effects would develop that would be different for each substance. Or, perhaps it wouldn't, and we would discover that indeed, perhaps different psychedelics are not so much different from each other after all.
 
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EntheoDjinn

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e1evene1even said:
..............."Taste" in music is very subjective so the mapping techniques used in this site could be quite valuable for something as equally subjective as psychedelics.

I couldn't agree more. There seems to be a lot of resistance to the notion of the "subjective". There's no reason why both subjective and objective reporting cannot be used. There has been a huge growth in the acceptance of Qualitative Research Data in the field of health and mental health promotion in the UK, and it is used alongside Quantitative Research Data to build up a more comprehensive picture of what health means to people.

Xorkoth - many thanks for taking the original idea forward with so much enthusiasm. Can I suggest that in addition to any structured questions, there is a section at the end where respondents can add extra subjective comments that they feel further describe their experience, but are perhaps not covered in the list? A thematic analysis can then be carried out at some point which might yield some useful additional information.

And as for concerns about harm reduction, I don't see how presenting information in a sensitive way can damage this ethos. People should be considered to have the freedom to make their own informed choices (this is me with my health promotion head on) - this project would simply be a way of constructing sets of information.

As well as an interesting project, it could well add to the culture of harm-reduction.

E
 

Solipsis

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Originally Posted by Ptah
Unfortunately most people aren't very bright.
Just look at the sheer number of Bluelight posters who subconsciously or not consider it a good joke to damage themselves by taking huge amounts of drugs.
There are others who again subconsciously or not believe that the ego can be destroyed permanently by those same means.
I still have to meet the person who achieved success with thát hare-brained scheme.
I have however met several who failed. Disastrously if you ask me.

Lets make "harm reduction" #1 again plz.

I agree, let's make harm reduction #1. But what about this is against harm reduction? And also, how is this a legal risk? All that would be done is a gathering of survey results. I'm not sure I really see this as something dangerous.

Again, as long as this isn't claimed to be any sort of end-all, be-all informational source, I can't see the harm. Will it be difficult? Yes. But that's no reason not to do it. IMO.

My thoughts exactly. I'd hate to come across as defensive about this, it's rather I'd like to hear some more and better funded constructive criticism.
All of the effects we would be reporting are known to arise from psychedelic use, can anyone point out what harm could be done if the prevalence of these effects were statistically monitored? So if I get this straight, you're supposed to always make it clear that any possible and potentially harmful effect ever reported is possible to arise from ingesting a psychedelic substance. Showing the world prevalence numbers couldn't make a substance seem safer than it actually is, right? Because it's based on statistics.
If a compound has a lot of negative and overwhelmingly intense and possibly lasting effects like damaging the brain, ego or presenting vasoconstriction, it should come forward in the survey. If there are stupid idiots out there who pursue these effects and select a substance by these results, what is the difference between that and the same people getting excited by warnings in Datura topics? As long as you keep it raw data, people are responsible for their own conclusions and actions. Harm reduction still IS #1, but I don't believe a survey like this would influence harm at all. These results would be a grand source of information and informing others and ourselves is #2, and it has two sides. Some abuse the information and harm themselves, others use the information and reduce harm. Thus is has always been, so why trip over it now (no pun intended)? One can only trust there are more sensible people out there than ignorant, overcompensating and yielding credit harm reduction. Am I missing something? :)
 

Psychedelics_r_best

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It would be very difficult to create a profile of the subjective effects of psychedelics. First, we can't know for sure how similar the effects are for each person. Second, we can't know how accurately we are describing these effects. Language is a very diverse template, and what one may describe one way, another may describe another way. In terms of what you feel or what you see, people may explain two different things very similarly, and two similar things very differently. The experience of each person is markedly unique in its interpretations and auras.
 

Solipsis

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Psychedelics_r_best said:
It would be very difficult to create a profile of the subjective effects of psychedelics. First, we can't know for sure how similar the effects are for each person. Second, we can't know how accurately we are describing these effects. Language is a very diverse template, and what one may describe one way, another may describe another way. In terms of what you feel or what you see, people may explain two different things very similarly, and two similar things very differently. The experience of each person is markedly unique in its interpretations and auras.

I agree the world as we experience it is much more complex than our language stretches, and that goes double for tripping, but language gets us somewhere nonetheless. You can debate for an eternity about if any person views things like colors and sounds the same as another. In a certain way because every life full of experience is different, any single thing must have a special meaning to every person. But that doesn't keep us from trying to understand one another and empathize... We are all people with common factors, if you explain a situation to someone we can almost feel what it must be like.
I don't really care and kinda like that everyone's unique in his sensations, emotions and personality - if you ask someone details about a trip or read trip reports a lot you often encounter resemblances. Just get a basic idea of the concepts of things like dissociation, fractal patterns and what not and you've got yourself enough markers to get a feel for the character of a substance.

Now, it's absolutely impossible to know exactly what it will be like if you haven't tried it yourself, but to me it would be a matter of extrapolation and compensating descriptions of drug reactions for myself. Basically the same as I guess everyone does when they read a trip report: "Ah I recognize that typical and unmistakable effect from other drugs but I believe I would react somewhat different due to me being more or less like this and that..."
If we just take the trip reports that are now pretty much only memories and define a set of parameters, we combine them into these surveys. These parameters should be designed to be impersonal, to not relate to experiences and personalities but to things we tend to agree on. I think we can all agree on the definition of vomiting, seeing things melt, synaesthesia... there are a lot of phenomenon that bear a term and there are a lot of psychedelic aspects generally understood. If you like to question definitions set by language and philosophize on semantics what reason do you have to believe or sympathize with any trip report be it written or told? Or any other human experience for that matter?

If you would even set a criterium that is somewhat vague, interpreted subjectively... this criterium would either appeal to people or not, and if enough people participated it woud definitely tell us something about the outcome. Maybe your interpretation colors it because it becomes more personal but I still believe common factors will be distilled. This has a limit but if you keep the parameters in check I strongly anticipate the results will sure have meaning.

IMO the limit to interpreting these results does not lay in the blended median of subjectivity but in the experience of the reviewer! You need to have enough reference points to understand the meaning. Sometimes it seems tripping can give you an endless number of possibilities, though there are some categories to be found. You will have to know these categories before any of the results will ring a bell.

Please everyone, let's keep these opinions coming. :)
 

illuminati boy

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Below is a suggested series of ideas slightly modified from my previous surveys. I think it is a good starting place for any comprehensive survey on psychedelic effects. Obviously questions 7 and 9 would probably be modified slightly for other compounds of different duration and general level of potency.
I B

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. OVERALL RATING OF DOB-DFLY (AKA Bromo-Dragonfly) (Choose Only One): Considering all of the psychoactive compounds that you may have used in your lifetime, please choose the rating of the compound that best expresses your overall opinion of the material:
01) A+ (Best Chemical Ever Ingested, absolute favorite)
02) A (Very Good, one of my favorites, would recommend to others)
03) B (Worthwhile Material, likely would do it again)
04) C (Nothing Special, might do it again)
05) D (Disliked, likely would not do it again)
06) E (Very Bad Side-Effects &/or No Worthwhile Effects, would tell others to avoid)
07) F (Severe Adverse Reaction, hospitalization, seizure, HPPD, etc.)

2. OVERALL GENERAL PLEASURE DIRECTION OF DOB-DFLY (AKA Bromo-Dragonfly) (Choose Only One):
08) +3 (Ecstatic / Rapture / Heaven / Bliss)
09) +2 (Elated / Euphoric / Very Upbeat)
10) +1 (Pleasant / Mildly Elevated Mood)
11) 0 (Neutral / Baseline / ‘Normal’ / Prone To Both Positive or Negative Experiences)
12) –1 (Unpleasant / Mildly Depressed Mood / Mildly Disconcerting)
13) –2 (Painful / Disturbing)
14) –3 (Grueling / Agony / Hellish)

3. OVERALL GENERAL ENERGY DIRECTION OF DOB-DFLY (AKA Bromo-Dragonfly) (Choose Only One):

15) +3 (Extremely Stimulating)
16) +2 (Moderately Stimulating)
17) +1 (Slightly Stimulating)
18) 0 (Neutral / Baseline / or Prone To Both Stimulation or Sedation)
19) -1 (Slightly Sedating)
20) -2 (Moderately Sedating)
21) -3 (Extremely Sedating)

4. ‘PRIMARY EFFECTS’ OF DOB-DFLY (AKA Bromo-Dragonfly) (Check All That Apply Including Less Intense Phenomena If At All Present):
22) No Psychedelic Effects Noticed.
23) Brighter Colors / Color Enhancement.
24) Mild Open Eye Visuals (trails, patterning, etc.).
25) Notable Open Eye Visuals (fractals, warping, morphing, etc.).
26) Extreme Open Eye Visuals (Complete Loss of Visual Reality / White Out etc.)
27) Mild Closed Eye Visuals (2-D &/or simple geometric patterns).
28) Notable Closed Eye Visuals (3-D geometric patterns &/or complex visions).
29) Extreme Closed Eye Visuals (Utterly Real / Believable Other Dimensions or Worlds / The Void / etc.)
30) Notable Auditory Effects (sound distortion, music sounds ‘wider,’ etc.).
31) Tactile Enhancement (things feel good or interesting to touch etc.).
32) Feel Like Laughing / Hilarity (everything is much funnier etc.).
33) Electric / Tingling Feelings.
34) Feeling Detached &/or Removed From One’s Physical Body
35) Feeling of Being Reborn
36) Time Seems To Pass Much Faster
37) Time Seems To Pass Much Slower or Cease To Exist.
38) Feelings of Increased/Enhanced Empathy
39) Deep Intellectual Thought / Introspection.
40) Awe / Amazement.
41) Increased Aesthetic Appreciation.
42) Sense of Presences / Entity Contact
43) Feeling of Being ‘At One’ / Oneness / Unity.
44) Presence of Numinous Force / Higher Power / God.
45) Synaesthesia (‘crossing’ of senses, seeing music, hearing colors etc.).
46) Sexual Feelings / Enhancement / or Pronounced Sexual Imagery.

5. ‘SIDE EFFECTS’ OF DOB-DFLY (AKA Bromo-Dragonfly) (Check All That Apply Including Less Intense Phenomena If At All Present):
47) No appreciable side-effects whatsoever.
48) Headache.
49) Perceived Chest Pain or Heart Palpitation/Heart Racing.
50) Abdominal Pain.
51) Perceived or Actual Temperature Change (Hot/Cold Flashes).
52) General Physical Discomfort.
53) Nausea / Upset Stomach.
54) Vomiting
55) Severe Diarrhea.
56) Muscle Twitches.
57) Notable Tremors.
58) Nystagamus (eye-wiggles).
59) Bruxism / Jaw Clenching / Tooth Grinding.
60) Sexual Dysfunction
61) Anxiety &/or Feeling Very Nervous.
62) Unpleasant Change in Thinking Rate.
63) Feelings of Isolation.
64) Paranoia (feeling like people are ‘out to get you,’ everyone is against you, etc.).
65) Feel Like Crying &/or Feeling Depressed.
66) Sense of Doom
67) Convinced You had Died or were Dying
68) Tinnitus (ringing in the ears that persists).
69) ‘Bad Trip,’ Bummer, Psychotic Reaction, Panic Attack.
70) SEVERE ADVERSE REACTION (Severe Allergy / Hospitalization / Blackout / Seizure / HPPD / etc.).

6. Number of Times Used: How many times have you used DOB-DFLY (AKA Bromo-Dragonfly) in total?
71) 1 Time.
72) 2-5 Times.
73) 6-10 Times.
74) 11-20 Times.
75) 21-30 Times.
76) 31-50 Times.
77) 51-75 Times.
78) 76-100 Times.
79) 101 or More Times.

7. What dosages have you taken with this compound (Check All That Apply)?
80) Less than 50 micrograms
81) 50-100 micrograms
82) 101-200 micrograms
83) 201-300 micrograms
84) 301-400 micrograms
85) 401-500 micrograms
86) 501-600 micrograms
87) 601-700 micrograms
88) 701-800 micrograms
89) 801-999 micrograms
90) 1,000 micrograms (1 milligram) or more
91) Unknown Dose / Not Sure of Dose

8. Routes of administration used with this compound (Check All That Apply)? *Note inclusion of a route of administration in this question in no way implies it is regularly used this way or can be done so safely.
92) Orally (by mouth)
93) Sublingually (held under the tongue)
94) Buccal (held between cheek and gums)
95) Rectal Suppository (Plugging, etc.)
96) Intravenously Injected (I.V.)
97) Intramuscularly Injected (I.M.)
98) Subcutaneously Injected (S.C.)
99) Insufflated (Snort, Sniffed, Railed, etc.)
100) Vaporized
101) Other Method of Administration

9. How long do the effects of Bromo-Dragonfly last? (Please check the shortest duration you noted and check the longest duration noted. If you only took the compound one time, please choose the single answer that best represents the duration you experienced.)
102) No Effects Noted Whatsoever.
103) Less Than 1 Hour.
104) 1 Hour – 3 Hours.
105) 3 Hours – 6 Hours.
106) 6 Hours – 9 Hours.
107) 9 Hours – 12 Hours.
108) 12 Hours – 15 Hours.
109) 15 Hours – 18 Hours.
110) 18 Hours – 21 Hours.
111) 21 Hours – 24 Hours.
112) 24 Hours – 27 Hours.
113) 27 Hours – 30 Hours.
114) 30 Hours – 33 Hours.
115) 33 Hours – 36 Hours.
116) More Than 36 Hours.

10. Free Form Additional Information: If you have had any extremely unusual experiences or effects from this compound (positive or negative) please enter them here:
117) :
 
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