Hallucinogenic fish

[lovepsychadelics]

Hallucinogenic fish are certain species of fish found in several parts of the tropics that can produce hallucinations if their flesh is ingested. The effects of eating hallucinogenic fishes are reputed to be similar in some aspects to LSD. Experiences may include vivid auditory and visual hallucinations. This has given rise to the collective common name "dream fish" for hallucinogenic fish. Wikipedia.

Were I was raised there are plenty of these little suckers and most of the locals LOVE them. I think they taste and smell awful but once you down one for dinner you become very sedated and almost enter a trance like state. Sleep comes very easily and vivid sometimes terrifying dreams are experienced. Sometimes you get the effects while still awake like a waking dream really weird and if you eat a few you get visual and auditory hallucinations. Anyone else eaten these species of fish? Most Islanders will have. Wiki is way off about the LSD more like mild LSA and kava/kava without the awful nausea but the fish don't taste great. They are often called "stinking" or "Namwe" were I come from.

The Norfolk dream fish thread (the first thread on hallucinogenic fish I came across in the archive) although closed is accurate and yes I have eaten many of these "Namwe" they don't taste the best and effect one as I have described above. This is 100% true and some people love the taste and effect while others shun the fish and throw them back. Once you have eaten one of these fish you wont forget it in a hurry. They are always cooked for an evening meal. I'm not trolling or talking shit. I guess any islanders out there who like their dream fish are probably not going to post on BL because it's not something that most would be into or even know of.

 

[webbykevin]

very cool post

 

[lovepsychadelics]

very cool post

A couple of these have been archived in Aus DD but no one had eaten them and people were calling bullshit and in the end it was closed because people assumed the fish were toxic which they are not. It's common knowledge among pacific island people, Polynesian (my background) and Melanesian people although kava kava is more popular in say Fiji (Melanesian). Datura was used as a birth control drug for women. A type of home brew made from palm hearts, taro roots and other plants after European contact was common. Kava Kava was known to the Polynesian people and the stuff grows wild on the Island I grew up on.

Obviously hawaiian baby woodrose was used by people from that part of Polynesia but the stuff can be found all over the pacific islands. Also some psychedelic fungi were used for medicine and spiritual purposes. Due to the missionaries and European contact bringing disease a large amount of traditional knowledge and plant medicines were lost and will never be regained. With the sea being such an important part of our culture, knowledge of it's bounty and special animals/fish like the dream fish were an important resource.

Also there are a number of plants that can be used as food including Water Spinach (Ipomoea aquatica, Convolvulaceae), taro (tastes like starch and nothing else awful food), obviously Kumara or sweet potato, ulu (breadfruit, Artocarpus atilis), uhi (true yam, Dioscorea batatas) and pia (polynesian arrowroot, Tacca leontopetaloides) were minor crops. Other polynesian introduced food plants that were of some importance in Hawai'i and other pacific islands include ki (Ti, Cordyline fruticosa), 'ohi'a'ai (Mountain apple, Eugenia malaccensis), ko (sugarcane) and kukui (Candle nut, Aleurites moluccana). Never forget the Polynesian rat he was an important food source as well.

 

[toastmann]

I think there is a bit on hallucinogenic marine life in TiHKAL/PiHKAL. 5-Bromo-DMT comes to mind.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

I think there is a bit on hallucinogenic marine life in TiHKAL/PiHKAL. 5-Bromo-DMT comes to mind.

Islanders believe the fish feed on sea plants that are psychoactive so 5-Bromo-DMT is the most likely candidate. Thank you fro your input it's very informative and means what we believe is the truth behind the effects of the fish. They do taste rather nasty though.

 

[ZFC]

I can't find anything on "namwe". Anyone have the real (latin) name?
Also, IIRC 5-Br-DMT had to do with marine sponges in the famous Tihkal chapter "DMT is everywhere".

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Dude that is a Polynesian name Kyphosus pacificus is one of the more common "namwe" there are 2-3 different species of "stinking" on the island I come from alone. https://www.google.com.au/imgres?im...1XtqUt3UAsHqiAfwmYGQDg&ved=0CAIQxiAwAA&iact=c YUM YUM!

 

[Si Dread]

The first thing I thought of was Homer Simpsons run-in with "Fugu" at a Japanese restaurant...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugu

Interesting thread though!

 

[thirdeye12]

That's sweetttttt

Imagine if a whole family ate those for dinner one night ^_^

 

[ComfortablyNumb95]

yeah I read something about those fish on erowid... interesting indeed

 

[Solipsis]

This specific psychoactivity phenomenon = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthyoallyeinotoxism

click for wiki info

NSFW:

Ichthyoallyeinotoxism, or hallucinogenic fish inebriation, comes from eating certain species of fish found in several parts of the tropics. The effects of eating ichthyoallyeinotoxic fishes are reputed to be similar in some aspects to LSD. Experiences may include vivid auditory and visual hallucinations. This has given rise to the collective common name "dream fish" for ichthyoallyeinotoxic fish.
The species most commonly claimed to be capable of producing this kind of toxicity include several species from the Kyphosus genus, including Kyphosus fuscus, K. cinerascens and K. vaigiensis.[citation needed] It is unclear whether the toxins are produced by the fish themselves or by marine algae in their diet, but a dietary origin may be more likely.[citation needed]
Sarpa salpa, a species of bream, can induce LSD-like hallucinations if it is eaten.[1] These widely distributed coastal fish[2] became a recreational drug during the Roman Empire, and are called "the fish that make dreams" in Arabic. In 2006, two men who ate fish, apparently the Sarpa salpa caught in the Mediterranean were affected by ichthyoallyeinotoxism and experienced hallucinations lasting for several days.[3][4]
Other hallucinogenic fish are Siganus spinus,[5] called "the fish that inebriates" in Reunion Island, and Mulloides flavolineatus (formerly Mulloidichthys samoensis),[6] called "the chief of ghosts" in Hawaii [7]

another species of fish responsible = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salema_porgy

sarpa salpa

click for wiki info

NSFW:

Sarpa salpa, known commonly as the Salema porgy, is a species of bream, recognisable by the golden stripes that run down the length of its body, and which can cause hallucinations when eaten.[1] It is relatively common off the coasts of South Africa, Tenerife, Malta and Cyprus, but has been occasionally been found as far north as Great Britain.[1]
Sarpa salpa was reportedly consumed as a recreational drug during the time of the Roman empire.[2] The fish became widely known for its psychoactivity following widely publicized articles in 2006, when two men ingested it at a Mediterranean restaurant and began to perceive many auditory and visual hallucinogenic effects.[2] These hallucinations, described as frightening, were reported to have occurred minutes after the fish was ingested and had a total duration of 36 hours.
Ichthyoallyeinotoxism, or hallucinogenic fish

poisoning is common in other species of fish but not in Sarpa salpa, which is not normally psychoactive. It is, in fact, often served as a dish at seafood restaurants in the Mediterranean area. It is presently believed that the fish ingests a particular algae or phytoplankton which renders it hallucinogenic. The effects described are similar to those of indole tryptamine psychedelics.[2]

Very interesting and curious. When the types of fish that can cause this are only very related and specific geographically it seems more likely that it is a compound endogenous in the fish that causes the effects, but when it is a more common or general phenomenon seen in different parts of the world or in various geni of fish a dietary cause IMO becomes more logical. Still, it is quite possible that the compounds are involved in the metabolism of the origin such as with DMT in a lot of plants or psilocin and psilocybin in mushrooms.
It would be odd if the number of fish eating a certain type of marine life containing psychoactives is very limited but then again it does happen that organisms in the food chain are paired so selectively, almost symbiotically.

If the effects can last up to about 30+ hours I doubt that it is just some halogenated DMT. I'm not sure what the frequency of incidence is for these "poisonings" but it's about time someone subjects some fish tissue sample leftovers from a poisoning to a drug test.

http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?A=ShowDocPartFrame&ID=6726&DocPartID=6226

This is interesting as well: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ea...s-hallucinations-found-off-British-coast.html
Apparently the fish involved are pretty much all (zoo)plankton-eating ones, though the culprits may also be macro algae, pelagic larvae or other very small assorted sea gunk. (It might be worth mentioning that I am eating a frutti di mare pizza as we speak, so I can appreciate the menu of these babies).
I wonder if maybe beta carbolines could be the reason for extended action of primary psychedelics via MAOI.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Well the subjective effects are still evident the next day after eating these little guys. More lethargy than any psychedelia and with excessive consumption (usually with beer) people often have slurred speech and slow/reduced reflexes. I've noticed the same effects the next day after a binge on mushrooms.

Hell I'd have vivid nightmares (like a giant black dog chasing me through a forest) as a kid sometimes after eating some of these usually just fried whole, after being scaled and gutted on each side in butter. After a few to many nightmares from both of us kids my dad stopped keeping them and just gave them to our cousins and stuff when we went fishing. My mum tried them a couple of times but had a bad experience (not a local so it was an unexpected event for her lol). Other older folk wouldn't even gut them just fry them up whole. They are not a huge fish probably 12 inches or so when fully matured.

As for the psychoactive compound/poison I have no idea but most old folk had been eating them their entire lives. All you need to do is climb down a cliff onto the rocky out crops, throw in a little bread or mince and throw a fishing line with a hook and bait tied off against a length of bamboo and they just bite. It sucks when your targeting say Kingfish and these little bastards keep taking your line. I'm sure these species occur in the coastal waters of Australia and there may be a species of brim that cause this effect. Not advising that people do this more the opposite as in don't eat them. I have known tourists to consume these fish and have a pretty heavy ordeal (mostly older tourist people).

The fact they eat bread and meat bait indicates that aquatic plants are not their only source of food and may be opportunistic predators.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

That's sweetttttt

Imagine if a whole family ate those for dinner one night ^_^

Usually a whole family does eat the fish for dinner sometimes the extended family as well.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Roughly TC; Roberts BJ
Bounty Descendants Live on Remote Norfolk Island
National Geographic Magazine. October 1960 Vol.116, no.6 page 575
Talking with fishermen, I frequently heard about the "dream fish." Eat this fish, they declared, and you'll have nightmares.

"The small ones don't affect me," one of the islanders said, "but once I had a big one for supper. I spent that night on an operating table, with the surgeon doing one operation after another - always cutting through a new and expensive suit I had just purchased. I kept shouting to my wife for help, but she ignored me. When I awoke and upbraided her for not answering my calls, she said I hadn't uttered a word.

Fish Brings Science-Fiction Dream
Joe Roberts, a calm National Geographic photographer, who usually doesn't dream at all, wanted to try some dream fish. Leo McCoy caught one for him, and the chef at the Paradise Hotel, Lober Christian, broiled it and served it with taties and stewed pumpkin.

The guests at the hotel admired Joes courage as he ate. Next morning, when he strolled into the dining room, everybody looked at him eagerly. Joe glowed. "It was pure science fiction," he said. "I saw a new kind of car, steered with a stick like a plane. And then I was taking pictures of a monument to mark man's first trip into space."

I took a scientific look at these stimulating marine vertebrates because my life's work is zoology, especially studying sea life around Australia.

The dream fish, I found, is the species Kyphosus fuscus, and is closely related to the silver drummer caught off of New South Wales. Another relative is known in the United States as the rudder fish.

How does this fish bring on dreams? I surmised two possibilities. First, people who expect to dream may likely do so. Second, a mild poison in the fish may affect the digestive system. After all, we know that some tropical fish become poisonous at certain seasons as a result of their own diet.

To cap my investigation, I ate a dream-fish supper myself. I found it tasty, but strong flavored, like mackerel. I told myself not to dream. But no. I dreamed I was at a party where everybody was nude and the band played "Yes, we have no pajamas."

Also some 40 Japanese workers ate the Hawaiian species of this fish in 1927 and many reported terrifying nightmares although some enjoyed the experience.
Also read: Clinical Toxicology, 44:185–188, 2006
Copyright © Taylor & Francis Group, LLC
ISSN: 0731-3810 print / 1097-9875 online
DOI: 10.1080/15563650500514590
185
LCLT CASE REPORT
Hallucinatory Fish Poisoning (Ichthyoallyeinotoxism):
Two Case Reports From the Western Mediterranean
and Literature Review
Hallucinatory Fish Poisoning Luc de Haro and Philip Pommier
Centre Antipoison, Hôpital Salvator, Marseille, France

 

[Solipsis]

Honestly it sounds much more like a mild to moderate dose of a deliriant such as a tropane alkaloid. The duration would match much better and nightmares, slurred speech and impaired reflexes also seems much more reasonable from anti-cholinergics, if you got it from mushrooms then maybe it was from getting tired and generally intoxicated.
What is to be called sedating or trance-producing can be confusing and IMO not really ways to separate indoles from tropane alkaloids as candidates.
Also again: there would have to be some interesting modification of the molecules cause simple tryptamine's effects don't last a very long time.
(I recall others suspecting the same thing (tropanes) on sites I came across.)

Obviously these may be compounds we may not know that much about yet.

But:

Clinical symptoms of ichthyoallyeinotoxism occur within a few minutes to 2 h after ingestion of toxic fish. The first symptoms resemble inebriety with loss of balance and coordination and generalized malaise (1-3). Sore throat and heartburn have also been reported in the initial phase. Within a few hours, specific signs of poisoning occur including delirium, visual and/or auditory hallucinations (often involving animals), depression, feelings of impending death with reactive tachycardia and hyperventilation, and disturbed behavior. If they are able to sleep, patients classically report terrifying nightmares (3). Gastrointestinal symptoms including nausea, abdominal pain, and diarrhea have been described in a few cases, but are usually low-grade (3). No specific treatment or antidote treatment is available. Appropriate management of transient behavioral disturbances (e.g., using benzodiazepine or neuroleptics), is important to prevent self-inflicted or other injury. Symptomatic treatment for gastrointestinal manifestation can enhance patient comfort. Symptoms generally abate within 24 to 36 h, but weakness may persist for several days (1-3).

de Haro Luc; Pommier Philip "Hallucinatory fish poisoning (ichthyoallyeinotoxism): two case reports from the Western Mediterranean and literature review." Clinical toxicology (2006), 44(2), 185-8

So "hallucinogenic" is quite right, "psychedelic" seems to be off the mark.

 

[RedRum OG]

holy crap, long lasting trips. if i ate a fish that had a small chance of being poisonous, containing and unknown psych that lasted as long as the DOx 's, i would be in for a bad trip

new school version of licking toads eh? chomping fish?

i like how anything that has psychedelic effects is "similar to LSD" even though acid is an extremely unique trip IMHO

 

[Halif]

i like how anything that has psychedelic effects is "similar to LSD" even though acid is an extremely unique trip IMHO

I like how often people compare things to MDMA.

A few years back when laballed RCs (as in, the vendor actually sold the chem by it's name, not a maade up brand) started to become mainstream knowledge to the youth, I remember reading countless reports of things that "felt like an MDMA comeup" - everything from ethylphenidate, to 4-AcO-DMT, to etizolam, to bloody synthacaine (yeah, I know that's not a real chem!!!)

It was like people were so desperate to find a replacement for MDMA that they found hints of it everywhere. One dude said Kava Kava was like MDMA.

SO, how about 'namwe'.... MDMA comeup?!

 

[EarthBounded]

Very weird concept for a vegetarian by myself, I always understood the Yapo frog because it was released unharmed, but this gives me an honest weird glimpse about life.

Anyone ever heard of a psychedelic fish near haiti used for voodoo? I have hear about this from a very credited source, trying to verify if it is true just to double check and if anyone knows the species

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Honestly it sounds much more like a mild to moderate dose of a deliriant such as a tropane alkaloid. The duration would match much better and nightmares, slurred speech and impaired reflexes also seems much more reasonable from anti-cholinergics, if you got it from mushrooms then maybe it was from getting tired and generally intoxicated.
What is to be called sedating or trance-producing can be confusing and IMO not really ways to separate indoles from tropane alkaloids as candidates.
Also again: there would have to be some interesting modification of the molecules cause simple tryptamine's effects don't last a very long time.
(I recall others suspecting the same thing (tropanes) on sites I came across.)

Obviously these may be compounds we may not know that much about yet.

But:


de Haro Luc; Pommier Philip "Hallucinatory fish poisoning (ichthyoallyeinotoxism): two case reports from the Western Mediterranean and literature review." Clinical toxicology (2006), 44(2), 185-8

So "hallucinogenic" is quite right, "psychedelic" seems to be off the mark.

It's nothing like Fly Agaric (the only deliriant I have consumed) never tried datura and never will. Fly Agaric was the worst experience ever from 6 caps sun dried and simmered with lemon for 30 minutes strained and consumed. I would never recommend Fly Agaric. It may very well be a tropane but compared to Fly Agaric it's mild. Weird though as some report stimulation and euphoria from Fly Agaric just like some people enjoy the dream fish and others don't. It was used in Polynesian ceremonial rituals but that knowledge is lost to most Islanders due to missionaries.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

holy crap, long lasting trips. if i ate a fish that had a small chance of being poisonous, containing and unknown psych that lasted as long as the DOx 's, i would be in for a bad trip

new school version of licking toads eh? chomping fish?

i like how anything that has psychedelic effects is "similar to LSD" even though acid is an extremely unique trip IMHO

Not new school at all part of Polynesian culture and ceremonial practices for a long time. Interestingly the Romans ate the Mediterranean species as a recreational drug. The come up is nothing like MDMA or LSD very different which actually makes me think it may be a tropane. That or a DMT analogue like 5-Bromo-DMT with some kind of MAOI in the fishes diet? Yeah I call bullshit on wiki with the LSD reference.