O-PCx antibiotic cpabilities

blueberries

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Ok, so O-PCM is an antibiotic, would the same properties exist in the Ethyl? I have been unable to gain a response in PD so I came here. Sorry for screwing up the title I meant 'capabilities'
 

aced126

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What is O-PCM? Methyl>ethyl normally doesn't cause any binding problems unless the binding pocket is sterically tight. It could possibly improve binding as well. Longer alkyl chains have slightly higher logP so in general are absorbed slightly better from the gut provided diffusion is their main method of transport into the blood (endocytosis and facilitated transport of molecules commonly take place). In general though it shouldn't have any drastic changes which you might expect if you introduced a whole new functional group.
 

blueberries

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Sorry, I should said. O-PCM = 2'-oxo-PCM or deschloroketamine. That's unfortunate to say the least as it could have been a great successor to MXE.
 
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serotonin2A

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I think it is safe to say that 2-oxo-PCM is not an antibiotic (or whatever else the patent claimed). If you actually read the patent, it is obviously BS. Patents are sometimes issued for inventions that don't work as claimed.
 
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Transform

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What makes you say it's BS? I agree that there is call to be skeptical, but they are proposing it as an antiviral at just 2mg per day.
 

serotonin2A

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What makes you say it's BS? I agree that there is call to be skeptical, but they are proposing it as an antiviral at just 2mg per day.

Because there doesn't appear to be any actual evidence that the drug is an effective antibiotic or antiviral. To establish that, they would have to show that exposure to the drug kills bacteria and blocks viral replication. The three cases included in the patent are anecdotal, not controlled trials. The improvement may have been unrelated to the drug. Finally, if 2'-oxo-PCM is an antiviral/antibiotic then ketamine would likely have similar properties, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
 
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serotonin2A

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The antimicrobial effects of ketamine combined with propofol: An in vitro study

This is the advanced forum, you could at least google before posting.

Did you actually read the study you cited? The minimal effective concentration in one experiment was 70 uM, but in most cases 500-1000 uM -- at the very least, an order of magnitude higher than the plasma concentration of ketamine in patients given anesthetic doses. Many things have antimicrobial effects in solution, especially if you use relatively high concentrations, but that doesn't make them effective antibiotics.

The authors didn't claim that ketamine is antibacterial in patients, only that it might be able to block microbial growth in propofol solutions.
 
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roi

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Yep. But the class has potential as antibiotics and there's surely stronger ones than Ketamine. So why doubt that patent?
 

serotonin2A

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Yep. But the class has potential as antibiotics and there's surely stronger ones than Ketamine. So why doubt that patent?

Because they didn't present any evidence that the compound has antiviral/antiprotozoal/antibacterial effects. Assuming the case reports are accurate, the reports aren't actually evidence of anything in particular. Maybe these were cases of spontaneous remission? There are reasons why double blind placebo controlled studies are the current standard. Even well designed trials can fail due to hidden flaws/confounds. I don't always discount anecdotal evidence, but these aren't even published case reports, they are patent filings by individuals who have an obvious conflict of interest.

It is also important to note that they aren't just claiming antibiotic effects, but broad spectrum activity against protozoa and also viruses. I don't know of any compounds that have such a broad spectrum of activity against pathogens in vivo.
 

aced126

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I'd say if a ketamine antibiotic dose is only an order of magnitude higher than an anaesthetic dose, then there is a fair chance that 2'-oxo-PCM could have antibiotic properties in sub-anaesthetic doses. It is not uncommon in medicinal chemistry to find that chloro or generally different aromatic substituents can raise or decrease potency by orders of magnitude (e.g baclofen > phenibut).

The patent doesn't present solid evidence that it is an antibiotic, however I'd say there is a fair chance that, if properly evaluated for its antibiotic properties, it could turn out to be an antibiotic at sub-anaesthetic doses.
 

vecktor

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It is also important to note that they aren't just claiming antibiotic effects, but broad spectrum activity against protozoa and also viruses. I don't know of any compounds that have such a broad spectrum of activity against pathogens in vivo.

because you don't know of them, it doesn't mean they don't exist, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.

it is them unknown unknowns.... I know of two classes of substances that do have broad effects against viruses and protozoa and bacteria and they work by disrupting and modifying cell membranes, so are antiviral in vivo by preventing viral penetration of the host cell wall, with protozoa it is cell membrane disruption of the protozoan preventing replication and with bacteria it is inhibition of energy generation by leading to leaky cell wall. Are they universal anti-infectives yes. do they have enough safety to ever be anything more than a curiosity, I personally doubt it, but that did not stop military research into them in the 80's and 90's, if you are curious I would suggest Ken Alibekov is the man to ask.

V
 

serotonin2A

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because you don't know of them, it doesn't mean they don't exist, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.

it is them unknown unknowns.... I know of two classes of substances that do have broad effects against viruses and protozoa and bacteria and they work by disrupting and modifying cell membranes, so are antiviral in vivo by preventing viral penetration of the host cell wall, with protozoa it is cell membrane disruption of the protozoan preventing replication and with bacteria it is inhibition of energy generation by leading to leaky cell wall. Are they universal anti-infectives yes. do they have enough safety to ever be anything more than a curiosity, I personally doubt it, but that did not stop military research into them in the 80's and 90's, if you are curious I would suggest Ken Alibekov is the man to ask.

V


Regarding my statement "I don't know of any compounds that have such a broad spectrum of activity against pathogens in vivo," I guess I should have gone into detail to explain my thinking. I was specifically talking about the subset of molecules that are safe to administer to humans. I'm not saying that a single compound cannot be a disinfectant. The existance of lysol proves that point. Same with ethylene oxide, formaldehyde, and a whole range of other chemicals.. If a chemical can denature lipids and proteins strongly enough, or disrupt lipids or membrane, then it will be a disinfectant. But none of those compounds are safe to take, and none of them have chemical properties like 2-oxo-PCM and ketamine.

But that issue is really a distraction. I brought it up because arylcyclohexylamines have been tested for tox and in humans in hundreds of trials, and several examples are routinely used in human and vet medicine. No one has ever noticed such broad-spectrum antimicrobial activity. It would be very suprising to find that a member of the class has such different activity. Not impossible of course. But everyone should be skeptical of such a report without air tight evidence. Yes, there was one paper showing that ketamine can inhibit the growth of some strains of bacteria, but that is a far cry from having action against virusus and other classes of pathogens.

In any event, the latter point has no bearing on the action of 2'-oxo-PCM. I really can't believe that there are people with a grounding in science who would believe claims without wanting to see evidence. Even worse, these claims are being made by inventors who have an obvious conflict of interest. Doesn't that make you a wee bit more disinclined to take their claims at face value? The bare minimum standard for showing evidence of efficacy would be for the inventors to conduct a controlled experiment, either in vitro or in vivo (preferably both), to show activity.
 
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vecktor

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Regarding my statement "I don't know of any compounds that have such a broad spectrum of activity against pathogens in vivo," I guess I should have gone into detail to explain my thinking. I was specifically talking about the subset of molecules that are safe to administer to humans. I'm not saying that a single compound cannot be a disinfectant. The existance of lysol proves that point. Same with ethylene oxide, formaldehyde, and a whole range of other chemicals.. If a chemical can denature lipids and proteins strongly enough, or disrupt lipids or membrane, then it will be a disinfectant. But none of those compounds are safe to take, and none of them have chemical properties like 2-oxo-PCM and ketamine.

But that issue is really a distraction. I brought it up because arylcyclohexylamines have been tested for tox and in humans in hundreds of trials, and several examples are routinely used in human and vet medicine. No one has ever noticed such broad-spectrum antimicrobial activity. It would be very suprising to find that a member of the class has such different activity. Not impossible of course. But everyone should be skeptical of such a report without air tight evidence. Yes, there was one paper showing that ketamine can inhibit the growth of some strains of bacteria, but that is a far cry from having action against virusus and other classes of pathogens.

In any event, the latter point has no bearing on the action of 2'-oxo-PCM. I really can't believe that there are people with a grounding in science who would believe claims without wanting to see evidence. Even worse, these claims are being made by inventors who have an obvious conflict of interest. Doesn't that make you a wee bit more disinclined to take their claims at face value? The bare minimum standard for showing evidence of efficacy would be for the inventors to conduct a controlled experiment, either in vitro or in vivo (preferably both), to show activity.

Almost 9 years ago....
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/333471-deschloroketamine-as-an-antibacterial

I suggest that descloroketamine is a sigma agonist and that is the source of antiviral activity. Sigma agonists are effective against HCV. Sigma agonists was one of the classes I had in mind to regarding membrane structure.

most real scientific discoveries begin with an open mind and the words "hey that's strange...."

I think that there might be something to it and am willing to entertain the possibility as I do not know otherwise. there are tantalizing hints out there. A patent is a patent and only has to meet certain requirements, it is not an application for a NDI, so only the evidence that is needed to support the application is ever supplied.

a broad anti-infective is not simply a disinfectant.
 

Incunabula

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Don't worry guys. If o-PCM and o-PCE really have antibiotic capabilities in vivo, we will know soon. Because some one out there is bound to take large doses for a prolonged period, and if they are antibacterials, these people will get all kinds of symptoms.

Personally I'm not buying it. Not that I have any knowledge on the topic, I just want to see evidence before believing something.
 

mozaik0000

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Is there any way to get in touch with the people who claimed the patent? It's 20 years old now it seems, surely there is more data to be found than on the description? Someone must have been looking into this during all that time, especially with it sounding so promisingly effective...?
 

skamariapastora

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Just to kind of fan the flames here in the name of progress:, i don't claim to be particularly knowledgable of this exact branch of this family of compounds but this i know for a fact. I sold 50mg of 2-oxo-PCE to a close friend who has an otherwise reasonably healthy immune system, and after vaporizing it continuously for a week, he came down with some form of bug or virus to the point of being given a saline IV because he couldn't keep food or water down. This could potentially be a total coincidence, I KNOW - but personally I'm retiring the stuff, seeing how it has similar symptoms to "cocaine" i once had in 2009 which was if not completely, at least heavily cut with levamisole mangling my immune system til i had the sense to flush. ... I'm just saying even if it is circumstantial, there might actually be something here guys... My friend could have almost died young and i am potentially responsible... I'll be avoiding this stuff completely until a definitive answer comes up, but i may well just be having a bout of paranoia. Just saying... The potential is there. I have noticed, although potentially placebo/general wear and tear, immuno-suppression through my own slightly less aggressive use of the compound... Only my 2 cents... I know i don't belong here... Just needed to say.
 

dopamimetic

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From just 50 mg? Whoa, that's pretty scary. It's so a fucking mess that just because of retarded (sorry, it's just true) politicians we have to use more and more untested, potentially harmful compounds instead of the known ones. I know this gets repeated over and over, but now with MXE it really hit me too. These assholes banned the only drug out there that was able to make hme feel and live like a normal human being ...

Sorry. Besides that, I've used several grams of what had been declared as O-PCM and at least 150mg of O-PCE in not exactly recommended usage patterns (daily). The PCM was badly synthed and caused a strange oily skin and mental symptoms which made me stop, but no signs of immune suppression thankfully. Would really be great to get this cleared up. I've already thought about acquiring more of the PCE..

And of course to have more arylcyclohexylamines to choose from. Why is there no 3-MeO-PCE, 3-HO etc?
 
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crOOk

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I ran a fever of 39.4° the other night. Toook 52.5mg 2'-OxO-PCE via IM injection and was fine after. Took Amoxicillin and clavulate too though ;P

No wayy this stuff has antibiotic properties to any clinically significant degree lol. Just my 2c
 

skamariapastora

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Is there any merit at all in suggesting the possibility that this is only a possibility in certain individuals? Both he and i have allergic reactions to DXM in either pure and prepared solution forms...
 
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