☮ Social ☮ PD Social Talk Thread 2022-2023 v. Year of the Phenethylamine

[simstim]

Just learned that many of the 2C drugs have been shown to be neurotoxic in cultured neuronal cell lines. Surprisingly, I think most of all of the 2Cs that they tested were more neurotoxic than MDMA. Wonder how this compares to in vivo toxicity...I wonder if this explains the headache I get from 2ce/2cb?
I also wonder if maybe it's not that big of a deal to kill some brain cells. Pretty sure alcohol is neurotoxic as well.

The neurotoxicity of psychoactive phenethylamines “2C series” in cultured monoaminergic neuronal cell lines - Forensic Toxicology

Purpose The aim of this study was to evaluate the neurotoxicity of psychoactive abused 2,5-dimethoxy-substituted phenethylamines “2C series” in monoaminergic neurons. Methods After the exposure to “2C series”, 2,5-dimethoxy-4-propylthiophenethylamine (2C-T-7)...

link.springer.com

I'm pretty sure the NBOMe's are as well. I don't have the reference but i read a paper

They also caused major birth defects in zebra fish embryos.

That being said I have plenty of 25b-NBOH around for my own use.

 

[simstim]

@Mr. Krinkle

 

[simstim]

 

[Chris Timothy]

Hang on, let me get my violin out…


Yeah I can believe it. It's not my favorite drug and not a drug I'm interested in doing alone. I like to do it with an entourage of people all rolling; it's can be a lot of fun like that. The next day is some shit though, but ya gotta take the good with the bad sometimes…

Anyway I was aiming for a bit of levity and also presented it as "possibly relevant". I didn't mean to imply I had just found some Holy Grail panacea for all your ailments, &c. Ya dig?


I'm not doling out advice here; please note I said "perhaps". And I'm sorry, I know this is cynical of me, but me personally? I'm not at all surprised by the frustrating lack of human pulse you might discover in the academic-industrial complex.


I was kind of just joking. Lighten up a little, man Don't take this shit too seriously. No one gets out of this alive, you know?


I wonder why… … but seriously, don't let it get you down.

One love, my guy.

I didn't mention nobody read it to evoke sympathy, I mentioned it in passing as to indicate I'm well read up on the subject, but that I know nobody cares so whatever, changing subjects.

Actively mocking it though is quite something else, and I'm disappointed your comment got likes despite.

I get it, you're probably high and laughing your ass off. No that doesn't cheer up a person in pain.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Benzodiazepines work really well for a lot of types of tinnitus. Mine is associated with AI disease.

Yeah. But then there's the rebound, and the tolerance that comes with fighting the rebound again and again. Maybe the net result would indeed be a sum total quieter head.. but in general the tinnitus sufferers seem skeptical towards sedatives, and I think I've got more to lose by a benzo addiction than by foregoing this option. It's quite tolerable already, I got it down by a factor of like ten by ignorning all online voices and just applying the scientific method, so I'm totally able to go on with my day. It's just with the topic of music theory coming up, I got confronted with the fact hearing just isn't fun anymore, is all.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Interesting.. so the benzos differ in their effect on your tinnitus, huh? I always assumed they'd be similar despite half-life differences.

I don't have access to prescription benzos, so I can't immediately put anything into action, but I'll keep your remark in mind. Thanks.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

I am so damn glad I have so little brains reserved for audial information. I have some tinnitus but I don't ever notice it.
I also have huge issues understanding what people are talking to me because I live in visual and tactile sensations and inside my head.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yes, Xanax does not work at all, with the exception of knocking you out. And I actually can't stand Xanax.

Klonopin I think it works because it makes you just not even able to pay attention.

But Librium and Valium. After about 1 day, the tinnitus disappears and then about 4 or 5 days after my regimen of short-term benzos the tinnitus returns. It's not any louder. It just returns.

Oh man sorry youre dealing with that tinnitus is the worst!. I get pulsatile tinnitus when im anemic. Its maddening, hopefully you dont deal with it 24/7

 

[simstim]

 

[Img_9999]

I actually did the math on the molar concentrations that were identified as being neurotoxic.

2cb has a molecular weight of 260 g. 150 micro molar which is the lowest dose identified as neurotoxic is equivalent to 39 mg in 1 l. There are 50 l of water in the human body. To get a 100 micro molar concentration you would have to consume approximately 1.95 g of 2-cb.

Even if you argue something about higher concentrations in the brain, an order of magnitude difference is still 195 mg, almost an order of magnitude higher than the average dose people consume of 2cb.

Edit- I incorrectly stated the value as 3.9 mg. It correctly is 39 mg (amount of 2-CB to create a 150 micro molar concentration in 1 liter of water)

Hmmm... but the drug will not necessarily diffuse everywhere in the body, it would be carried mostly by the blood stream. The average adult human has around 5 lts of blood, not 50 ... so the amount of 2C-B to achieve 150 µM in a normal human volemia would be 195 mg, not 1950. 2C-B was not even tested in that study tough? Although 2C-T-7, for example, has a very similar molecular weigth. If you take 2C-I, which is heavier, the amount to be dissolved in 5 lts to achieve 150 µM would be 225 mg. Those are still absurdly high dosages, but people out there have taken that kind of dosages before so kinda concerning anyway? In the case of 2C-C (MW=215 mg/mol) the toxic dosage is claimed to be 100 µM, so you would need to dissolve 105 mg in 5 lts to achieve that concentration. We are there closer to recreational dosages. Also, consider that concomitantly dosing a 2C-X with MDMA or Meth seems to make matters worse, according to the study.

All that said, I'm not a pharmacologist, but I really doubt that the actual concentration in the brain can be calculated as easily as simply dividing dosage taken in total blood volume. There's obviously a lot of pharmacokinetic factors at play, absorption rate of the drug, metabolizing enzymes, blood vessel diffusion ... I doubt the drug concentration your neurons encounter is as high as can be predicted with the simple calculation previoulsy mentioned, I would wager it is quite significantly lower. So I guess the study doesn't say a lot. Everyting can kill any type of cells in sufficient concentration. I would guess 2C-Xs at normal dosages are probably safe.

 

[unodelacosa]

I didn't mention nobody read it to evoke sympathy,

Seems this was indeed your modus operandi. You spent time researching and posting this data and no one seemed to care, comment, or react, right? Yes, it sucks; I've been there. I get butt-hurt when that happens to me. It's only natural. I can laugh at myself for being so putt-putt in retrospect. Hopefully you can too and will see that I'm not attempting to offend you. Others see this already—perhaps bc they know me better—and that's why the positive reactions.

I didn't see your post, so please share it with me and I'll check it out. No bullshit.

I mentioned it in passing as to indicate I'm well read up on the subject, but that I know nobody cares so whatever, changing subjects.

¡Tan dramático!

Actively mocking it though is quite something else,

No, I was poking fun at you for the emo complaint, "nobody cares" and the nobody loves me, everybody hates me, guess I'll go eat worms attitude. It was not a comment on your pain, though nothing is above criticism. Following this I encouraged you to lighten up and laugh. I've got my own ailments and problems, like everyone. It's fine to note what sucks, but it's also worth noting the good things in life, too. I'm just teasing anyway, what the British might call taking the piss. No offense was intended.

and I'm disappointed your comment got likes despite.

I'm disappointed you took my comments so seriously, managed to be offended, and forgot to assign an object to your preposition (despite what?). I was not heckling you.

I get it, you're probably high and laughing your ass off.

Now you're stereotyping. What makes you think I'm "probably high" (on what?), and why are you saying it as though this is a pejorative? Comes across dismissive and judgmental AF. And laughing my ass off? Does it seem like I'm laughing my ass off? Have you ever bothered to read any of my past posts? Does it seem like I'm some ignorant fuck cackling like a goddamn hyena at nothing? Learn to read the room, please.

Just learned that many of the 2C drugs have been shown to be neurotoxic in cultured neuronal cell lines. Surprisingly, I think most or all of the 2Cs that they tested were more neurotoxic than MDMA. Wonder how this compares to in vivo toxicity...

Yeah I wonder this as well. I'm a little surprised to hear this news. Thank you for sharing this.

I wonder if this explains the headache I get from 2ce/2cb?

I figure neurotoxic drugs carry a noticeable hangover, and I do not get hangovers from the 2Cx drugs, but this assumption might not be correct, idk…

I also wonder if maybe it's not that big of a deal to kill some brain cells. Pretty sure alcohol is neurotoxic as well.

The neurotoxicity of psychoactive phenethylamines “2C series” in cultured monoaminergic neuronal cell lines - Forensic Toxicology

Purpose The aim of this study was to evaluate the neurotoxicity of psychoactive abused 2,5-dimethoxy-substituted phenethylamines “2C series” in monoaminergic neurons. Methods After the exposure to “2C series”, 2,5-dimethoxy-4-propylthiophenethylamine (2C-T-7)...

link.springer.com

I always point that fact out, too—that alcohol is neurotoxic and "kills brain cells"—whenever discussing MDMA neurotoxicity. I'm sure volume, frequency, diet, exercise, age, metabolism, genetics, and other things factor in here in mitigating the degree of neurotoxicity that occurs in each instance. Either way, thanks again for sharing!

 

[Img_9999]

So you argue it diffuses through the blood but not through the intercellular, intracellular, or interstitial spaces? That's a position that's very difficult to support considering most things diffuse throughout the body.

Secondly, most substances have difficulty actually crossing the blood-brain barrier while we know that phenethylamines usually don't (have such trouble), that doesn't mean it's easier for them to cross the blood brain barrier than it is for them to diffuse into any other major organs.

If we take amphetamine, methamphetamine and MDMA as examples; we know they diffuse to pretty much every single tissue in the body, even into the buccal membranes in the mouth, skin, and the lacrimal glands in the eyes, as evidenced by mouth swab and hair shaft drug tests. Some institutions are even proposing testing people's tears for drugs.

Haha, I wasn't aguing anything, I just don't think it would be right to assume that a drug dilutes in the total water volume contained in the body. Yes, we are roughly 60% water, but every cell in the body is fill with water and obviously when we take drugs they dont enter every cell in the body. Of course metabolites and the compounds themselves can eventually diffuse and accumulate elsewhere in the body, but immediately upon GI absortion (assuming enteral administration), when the drug concentration is the highest in the body, drugs (as almost everything inside the body) are mostly carried through the bloodstream. Note I said mostly, here and in my last post. So I wasn't arguing anything really, I was just kinda rambling around the fact that dividing a dose in 50 lts seemed kinda random to me. Phenethylamines don't even need to end up inside neurons to excert their effect because 5HT receptors are membrane bound, and although some receptor downregultaion involves endocytosis, which could mean some drug ends up inside cells briefly, I don't realy think they go inside most cell-types during their passage though metabolism, though I'm not certain and again, just "thinking out loud" here.

So as you can see, it's extremely difficult to get levels of a substance to the concentration of 100 micro molar in the brain.

Yeah, this I agree with, as I stated in my previous post . There's a plethora of factors involving plasma drug concentrations, which is why it's not as simple as dividing the dose for the total volemia.

 

[Mjäll]

I did some kind of caapi extraction, loosely following the tek outlined here:

Easy Caapi Vine Alkaloid Extraction Guide - DMT-Nexus Wiki

wiki.dmt-nexus.me

I accidentally started with an acidified precipitate:

I assume this precipitate contains plant junk, but i've kept it.

Then i did a basified precipitate which looked pretty much like it should, although with a much lighter colored liquid layer. Didn't take a picture but it looked like the alkaloid precipitate in the tek linked above.

However, after deciding to evaporate the water by boiling, the suspected alkaloid fraction now looks like this:

It changed color from a greenish tan white back into a reddish brown and now looks like a resin. Perhaps it's still wet, but i'm impatient. Does anyone have a clue? Are the harmala alkaloids in this gunk or did i somehow fuck it up? Anyone got a take on this?

 

[pharmakos]

Sorry I haven't been around much the past week. Still meaning to listen to your music Xorkoth and unodelacosa. Been really down this week, haven't been doing much of anything other than spacing out and sleeping. Kinda went overboard on alcohol. Trying to get my shit back together tho. I owe my landlord almost a whole month's rent, only $500 or so but I need to figure out how to get caught up before I get evicted. But so disabled between my physical pain and my bipolar that it's like... Genuinely don't know how to get ahead anymore. Started taking my lithium again (I have Bipolar 1) which probably should mean no more psychedelics, due to risk of seizures. Which is a tough decision to make honestly. But hey. Hope y'all have been doing alright this past week. Thinking a lot about the Bluelighters we have lost. I miss my buddy Nathan / @thedeadlywar so much. Been almost a decade but I still cry about him all the time. Love you guys.

 

[pharmakos]

A new term for these drugs. "Psychedelic" means "mind manifesting" of course. I prefer using a Greek term tho. As previously discussed, the term "pharmakon" is a catch all drug that refers to medicines and poisons alike. As well, Plato consider words and logic to be pharmakon. A substance that creates a change, essentially, is the literal meaning.

What I propose as a new term for these drugs is GNOSTIKON. Gnosis, of course, is "to know." A Gnostikos is "one who knows." -Kon is the "genitive singular" suffix in Greek, meaning that words that end in -kon are things that GENERATE the prefix term connected to it. Therefore, a GNOSTIKON would be a "substance that generates knowledge" or "a substance that generates knowing."

The only other more appropriate term might be "noustikon." "Nous" being the term for "mind." But we already have mind, so is the substance really generating more mind? Or is it introducing more knowledge of the world into that mind?? To me, it is the latter.

 

[Mjäll]

I got 12 grams of this stuff from 200 grams of caapi. It smells like liquorice and caramel

I'm in no rush to try. Unsure of the potency. It doesn't look too dissimilar to some allegedly pure harmine and harmaline i've seen pictures of. It tests right with marquis and mecke. Anyone had it look like this? It's all crumbly and would readily disintegrate into powder. It glitters a bit. 6% is a freakish high yield so i'm not hoping that it's very pure, but i'll assume it's pure for my first trial and just dose in the 100mg range.

It's my first time doing this so any pointers are appreciated.

@tregar You seem to know this stuff. This post is a follow-up to the one above

 

[Xorkoth]

Cool! For the record, I have some (allegedly, I haven't tested it) pure harmalas (from syrian rue I believe) that is yellow crystals. To my eye, what you have looks like it could be refined further, but good job!

I've heard that caapi is actually an experience in and of itself, without having to add anything to it. But more of an internal, visionary thing. I've always been curious to try it.

Let us know how it goes! If you write trip reports, I'd urge you to write one, I haven't seen many on harmala alkaloids by themselves.

 

[simstim]

So you guys know I use way too much mdma. I dose almost daily, but I'm used to it.

I do crash the next day but a surefire fix for that is more mdma. Maybe I'll live to regret it one day but so far I am used to this and I've been doing ok this past year and a half dosing x multiple days a week.

I'm worried about my lady friend's mental health though. She's been popping x everyday like me last week and she's not used to it like I am.

She normally just drinks and smokes some cocaine.

Today she is over to a friend's and not gonna get any X from me. I bet she is crashing hard today. I was in crash mode until I snorted half a pill.

Every day last week she called and was like let me get an x pill. I can't really tell her she should take a break when I don't right? Lol. That would be hypocritical AF.

Between me and her I've been through 18 1/2 pills in the last week. That's likely to be around 3-3.5g of mdma!!

 

[Xorkoth]

Just got back from playing a small festival. It was a great time, it's been a while since we played a show, but we're starting to book more again. We played the show with our old drummer, but we finally have a new drummer, and I'm really excited for the future. We've gotten really fucking good... not trying to toot my own horn, but it's just a fact that I have become aware of, and it makes me happy. We can always rock a show now, it consistently goes off without a hitch. We did a lot of cool stuff that we hadn't done before, and played 2 new songs for the first time in a performance.

Feels really good to be doing something that I love, really well.

 

[Xorkoth]

So you guys know I use way too much mdma. I dose almost daily, but I'm used to it.

I do crash the next day but a surefire fix for that is more mdma. Maybe I'll live to regret it one day but so far I am used to this and I've been doing ok this past year and a half dosing x multiple days a week.

I'm worried about my lady friend's mental health though. She's been popping x everyday like me last week and she's not used to it like I am.

She normally just drinks and smokes some cocaine.

Today she is over to a friend's and not gonna get any X from me. I bet she is crashing hard today. I was in crash mode until I snorted half a pill.

Every day last week she called and was like let me get an x pill. I can't really tell her she should take a break when I don't right? Lol. That would be hypocritical AF.

Between me and her I've been through 18 1/2 pills in the last week. That's likely to be around 3-3.5g of mdma!!

That's nuts how much MDMA you do, man. I couldn't do it, I get into really dark places if I use MDMA too much. I've done it a few times in my life, for short stretches, and it fucks me over hard. I don't know how you do it.