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Social penis size preference

I'll buy the "no evidential basis". I guess I took it as you were saying it increased suicide risk and was a bad thing. The first study did say most folks were happy with it.
The second did say that reassignment surgery, "may not suffice". So, it seems a starting point for them.
 
I'll buy the "no evidential basis". I guess I took it as you were saying it increased suicide risk and was a bad thing. The first study did say most folks were happy with it.
The second did say that reassignment surgery, "may not suffice". So, it seems a starting point for them.
The article (it's not a study) does not say anything of the sort. It says that research suggests up to 18% regret it, it makes no comment on how the remaining people reacted. It certainly doesn't say anything about the effect on mental health (which is what we're talking about here), and the literature evaluation I quoted specifically says that there's no evidence it's beneficial at all.

The second study also says nothing about the effect of reassignment on mental health other than that people who have it still kill themselves at vastly higher rates than the general population. There's nothing in their results from which one can draw the conclusion that it reduces suicide rates (and they don't attempt to make that conclusion).
 
There is no evidence that gender reassignment surgery has any positive effect on mental wellbeing or helps prevent people from taking their life. There is zero evidence to suggest that if you don't provide gender reassignment then people will take their life, and actually the most thorough long term study suggests that the highest likelihood of suicide occurs ten to fifteen years AFTER reassignment.





Please don't spread misinformation.

That aside, chemically castrating minors is just as bad and represents a mutilation of their body.

“Opponents of youth transgender medical treatment say there's no solid proof of purported benefits and cite widely discredited research claiming that most untreated kids outgrow their transgender identities by their teen years or later. One study often mentioned by opponents included many kids who were mistakenly identified as having gender dysphoria and lacked outcome data for many others.”

So, two things here: “opponents of youth transgender medical treatment” (which implies they had a definite bias) “widely discredited studies” (which implies that the studies were faulty and probably also biased)

“Doctors say accurately diagnosed kids whose transgender identity persists into puberty typically don't outgrow it. And guidelines say treatment shouldn't start before puberty begins.”

So, trans youth who are ACCURATELY DIAGNOSED (very key, don’t you think?) will always feel like they are trans. And also, the above implies that children aren’t receiving this treatment; in fact, earlier in the article it states that surgery isn’t recommended until age 18.


This article states that “The truth is that data from more than a dozen studies of more than 30,000 transgender and gender-diverse young people consistently show that access to gender-affirming care is associated with better mental health outcomes—and that lack of access to such care is associated with higher rates of suicidality, depression and self-harming behavior.”

It also says that “Access to gender-affirming hormones and potential access to gender-affirming surgery is available at age 16—and then, in the case of transmasculine youth, only mastectomy, also known as top surgery. The Endocrine Society does not recommend genital surgery for minors.” So we’re not talking about CHILDREN here.

Additionally, both articles state that the first step in gender reassignment is therapy and psychological analysis. So the humans in question must undergo close scrutiny by a trained professional. If the minor or adult who receives gender affirming care changed their mind or regretted their choice (and, btw, another key word here is CHOICE) then don’t you think that’s also a failure on the part of the professionals who assisted them every step of the way? From the psychiatrists to the doctors?

No one is saying that mistakes don’t happen. Of course they happen. To be human is to err, I believe the phrase is. But minors also make the choice to use drugs, do they not? And a lot of them probably wind up on sites like this one. We’re all here because we made a CHOICE, for good or ill (and it’s very often the latter) that brought us together in this community. But I will still advocate for your right to choose to make that mistake.

I really don’t understand people who say “so and so a thing should be banned” but then go and be like “but not MY thing, the thing that I like.” I think humans should definitely be allowed to make bad choices, as long as they’re only injuring themselves and no one else.

Loads of people love to bring guns into this conversation, so I’ll address that too. I’ll advocate for your right to own a gun any day. Collect all you want! I’ve shot a gun myself and it’s pretty fun. The only thing is, it’s kinda like having a car. You need a license for that, and there are all kinds of laws about it like wearing seatbelts and obeying posted traffic signs, and if you are caught driving under the influence they take away your license, yeah? Yet cars are still dangerous and people die in accidents all the time, but no one is talking about taking cars away! People who advocate for sensible gun control legislation basically want background checks etc. I know some of them want AR-15s banned, but idgaf about that. Own 20 of them if you want. But only if you’re not a raving lunatic who is then gonna shoot up a school (and if you live with a raving lunatic, otherwise known as a moody teenager, you should lock those the fuck up.)

My point with all this is, fuck banning shit. Let people live their fucking lives and end the nanny state. Government fucks up everything it touches. SMALL GOVERNMENT, the Republicans used to stand for that and it’s part of their platform that I actually liked, but these days they have their fingers in every pie.

I really don’t understand why people care what other people are doing as long as it’s not encroaching on anything of yours? Live and let live. Ok /endrant
 
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Wtf have guns got to do with this? You're just ranting about totally irrelevant political discussions......I'm not American I couldn't care less about your two party system or your gun laws.

Literally every single one of those studies you've quoted has design issues, which was the point the meta-analysis quoted in The Guardian article (the most left wing and 'progressive' main stream publication in the UK) was making. Not least, essentially none of them are longitudinal, and the majority of them are being conducted by organisations who have a vested interest (profit) in finding a certain answer. Anyone with half an ounce of critical thinking ability can identify that none of those studies are reliable.

I agree, small government is great, but there has to be a limit. Is it good to let pharmaceutical companies push addictive drugs on vulnerable individuals just because it doesn't affect me? No of course not. Should we turn a blind eye to people running insider trading scams just because it doesn't affect me? Obviously not. Should we have ignored the Nazis burning Jews in Auschwitz simply because it doesn't affect me? No. The idea that one shouldn't have an opinion on something simply because it doesn't directly affect you is obviously idiotic. As a society we try to create systems that protect people who are vulnerable.
 
Wtf have guns got to do with this? You're just ranting about totally irrelevant political discussions......I'm not American I couldn't care less about your two party system or your gun laws.

Literally every single one of those studies you've quoted has design issues, which was the point the meta-analysis quoted in The Guardian article (the most left wing and 'progressive' main stream publication in the UK) was making. Not least, essentially none of them are longitudinal, and the majority of them are being conducted by organisations who have a vested interest (profit) in finding a certain answer. Anyone with half an ounce of critical thinking ability can identify that none of those studies are reliable.

I agree, small government is great, but there has to be a limit. Is it good to let pharmaceutical companies push addictive drugs on vulnerable individuals just because it doesn't affect me? No of course not. Should we turn a blind eye to people running insider trading scams just because it doesn't affect me? Obviously not. Should we have ignored the Nazis burning Jews in Auschwitz simply because it doesn't affect me? No. The idea that one shouldn't have an opinion on something simply because it doesn't directly affect you is obviously idiotic. As a society we try to create systems that protect people who are vulnerable.
Re: guns, as I said, I’ve had this discussion with others (obviously Americans) before and this is one of the arguments they use. I’m also bringing it up to kind of tie these things together under one overarching principle that I have, which is that of personal freedom. Maybe it’s an American thing, idk, but freedom to do and be who and what you want is one of my top values :)

Which brings me to another point I want to gently remind you of: your opinion and mine are just that, opinions. They are not absolute facts, set in stone. I have a problem when people say to me, “according to the way I think, this is how everyone should think/do/be.” And it seems like everyone is saying that to everyone else, these days, and that’s why we can’t have nice, calm, mature discussions about anything even remotely political 🤷🏻‍♀️

Speaking of political, this IS the Sex, Love, and Relationships subforum, and as its mod, I would be remiss if I didn’t remind you that all this is terribly off-topic. Maybe we could continue this conversation elsewhere? I invite you press your point, and I’d like to start the debate by saying that it seems a bit extreme to be comparing trans minors having gender reassignment surgery with the Jewish persecution by the Nazis 😱 surely you can see that the degree of harm being done is so much less in the former instance? Let’s start from there :)
 
The article (it's not a study) does not say anything of the sort. It says that research suggests up to 18% regret it, it makes no comment on how the remaining people reacted. It certainly doesn't say anything about the effect on mental health (which is what we're talking about here), and the literature evaluation I quoted specifically says that there's no evidence it's beneficial at all.

The second study also says nothing about the effect of reassignment on mental health other than that people who have it still kill themselves at vastly higher rates than the general population. There's nothing in their results from which one can draw the conclusion that it reduces suicide rates (and they don't attempt to make that conclusion).
I wouldn't say that "3%-18%" actually communicates "up to 18%".
What if I wanted to read that as "at least 3%"? Slanting and cherry picking are certainly disinformation.

Link up the literature you quoted, if you like. I would certainly like to examine that as well.
The article (it's not a study) does not say anything of the sort. It says that research suggests up to 18% regret it, it makes no comment on how the remaining people reacted. It certainly doesn't say anything about the effect on mental health (which is what we're talking about here), and the literature evaluation I quoted specifically says that there's no evidence it's beneficial at all.

The second study also says nothing about the effect of reassignment on mental health other than that people who have it still kill themselves at vastly higher rates than the general population. There's nothing in their results from which one can draw the conclusion that it reduces suicide rates (and they don't attempt to make that conclusion).
Yes. Higher suicide rates than the general population. I didn't see a thing comparing their suicide rates to transexuals who did not get the surgery.
Your OP seemed to imply that the surgery caused higher suicide rates and was disrecommended while a careful reading of the article shows it does not say that at all.
 
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“Opponents of youth transgender medical treatment say there's no solid proof of purported benefits and cite widely discredited research claiming that most untreated kids outgrow their transgender identities by their teen years or later. One study often mentioned by opponents included many kids who were mistakenly identified as having gender dysphoria and lacked outcome data for many others.”

So, two things here: “opponents of youth transgender medical treatment” (which implies they had a definite bias) “widely discredited studies” (which implies that the studies were faulty and probably also biased)

“Doctors say accurately diagnosed kids whose transgender identity persists into puberty typically don't outgrow it. And guidelines say treatment shouldn't start before puberty begins.”

So, trans youth who are ACCURATELY DIAGNOSED (very key, don’t you think?) will always feel like they are trans. And also, the above implies that children aren’t receiving this treatment; in fact, earlier in the article it states that surgery isn’t recommended until age 18.


This article states that “The truth is that data from more than a dozen studies of more than 30,000 transgender and gender-diverse young people consistently show that access to gender-affirming care is associated with better mental health outcomes—and that lack of access to such care is associated with higher rates of suicidality, depression and self-harming behavior.”

It also says that “Access to gender-affirming hormones and potential access to gender-affirming surgery is available at age 16—and then, in the case of transmasculine youth, only mastectomy, also known as top surgery. The Endocrine Society does not recommend genital surgery for minors.” So we’re not talking about CHILDREN here.

Additionally, both articles state that the first step in gender reassignment is therapy and psychological analysis. So the humans in question must undergo close scrutiny by a trained professional. If the minor or adult who receives gender affirming care changed their mind or regretted their choice (and, btw, another key word here is CHOICE) then don’t you think that’s also a failure on the part of the professionals who assisted them every step of the way? From the psychiatrists to the doctors?

No one is saying that mistakes don’t happen. Of course they happen. To be human is to err, I believe the phrase is. But minors also make the choice to use drugs, do they not? And a lot of them probably wind up on sites like this one. We’re all here because we made a CHOICE, for good or ill (and it’s very often the latter) that brought us together in this community. But I will still advocate for your right to choose to make that mistake.

I really don’t understand people who say “so and so a thing should be banned” but then go and be like “but not MY thing, the thing that I like.” I think humans should definitely be allowed to make bad choices, as long as they’re only injuring themselves and no one else.

Loads of people love to bring guns into this conversation, so I’ll address that too. I’ll advocate for your right to own a gun any day. Collect all you want! I’ve shot a gun myself and it’s pretty fun. The only thing is, it’s kinda like having a car. You need a license for that, and there are all kinds of laws about it like wearing seatbelts and obeying posted traffic signs, and if you are caught driving under the influence they take away your license, yeah? Yet cars are still dangerous and people die in accidents all the time, but no one is talking about taking cars away! People who advocate for sensible gun control legislation basically want background checks etc. I know some of them want AR-15s banned, but idgaf about that. Own 20 of them if you want. But only if you’re not a raving lunatic who is then gonna shoot up a school (and if you live with a raving lunatic, otherwise known as a moody teenager, you should lock those the fuck up.)

My point with all this is, fuck banning shit. Let people live their fucking lives and end the nanny state. Government fucks up everything it touches. SMALL GOVERNMENT, the Republicans used to stand for that and it’s part of their platform that I actually liked, but these days they have their fingers in every pie.

I really don’t understand why people care what other people are doing as long as it’s not encroaching on anything of yours? Live and let live. Ok /endrant
PBS Newshour? Really?
You do know that many physicians are corrupt, right & don't practice due-diligence?

...& OF COURSE adult people care and are interested about what happens in their society, outside of their own self-interested sphere - it would be especially, stupid not to have an interest in whatever values or, norms are being introduced by whatever, trend du-jour via political/corporate lobbying behemoths - capitalising on said, norm-changes.
 
PBS Newshour? Really?
You do know that many physicians are corrupt, right & don't practice due-diligence?

...& OF COURSE adult people care and are interested about what happens in their society, outside of their own self-interested sphere - it would be especially, stupid not to have an interest in whatever values or, norms are being introduced by whatever, trend du-jour via political/corporate lobbying behemoths - capitalising on said, norm-changes.
True. You’re right. But let’s take this discussion to The Dive, shall we? :)
 
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