Misc Psychoactive Honeys, Info and Bioassays

[G_Chem]

I was wondering just how much honey increases the bioavailability of other drugs. Here’s a study that looks at just that using a “model drug” carboxyfluorescein, with 4 Malaysian Honeys.

Physicochemical properties and pharmacokinetic profiles of selected Malaysian honey

Four selected Malaysian honey namely Gelam, Nenas, Acacia and Tualang were studied to identify their physicochemical properties such as moisture content, electrical conductivity, total ash content, free acidity, pH, hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF), and sugar and diastase activity. The parameters...

ieeexplore.ieee.org

They found that Gelam increased BA 3.5x, Nenas 4.3x, Acacia 3.0x and Tualang 2.3x.

Let’s assume we can extrapolate from this information, on average honey will increase BA 3.3x.

Looking at other articles it seems a common theme that flavonoids are overall more potent in honey than by themselves but not enough research looking at the exact numbers.

Another way to know these phenolics are BA is by measuring antioxidant potential. This next study shows significant antioxidants increase with buckwheat honey compared to black tea or other beverages studied.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf025897t

Now we maybe could assume a dosage closer 2.4ug/g could be the result of consuming these kaempferol in honey matrix. With a tablespoon as a light dose, that would be 21-22g. That would be a dose of ~52ug Kaempferol.

With rats responding to doses of 10, 20 and 40ug when injected (which often has poor BA when looking at other studies doing something similar with other flavonoids, where much of the dose will accumulate and not dissolve) I’m becoming hopeful a ~18ug dosage in a tablespoon of honey could actually be effective.

-GC

 

[Xorkoth]

Fascinating stuff! I'm sure various indigenous people have known about this since time immemorial, but I have never heard of anyone exploring psychoactive honeys, so I'm happy to see it being done, and documented on Bluelight.

 

[G_Chem]

Fascinating stuff! I'm sure various indigenous people have known about this since time immemorial, but I have never heard of anyone exploring psychoactive honeys, so I'm happy to see it being done, and documented on Bluelight.

The more I learn on honey the more I see that the old cultures revered it as a panacea, and rightfully so.. Psychoactive and extremely potent antioxidant properties, anti-diabetic, anti-cancer, anti-inflammatory, the list goes on.

Every time I try something new BL will be the spot that gets to hear about

I’m contemplating getting into beekeeping after learning all this stuff but that’s a long ways off.

Here’s some more research on Kaempferol and it’s analgesic properties..

First one compares analgesic effects to morphine, naloxone antagonizes the effect. It shows also effect at TRPV1 (which is coincidentally the receptor involved on my next honey experiment, stay tuned lol.)

The orofacial antinociceptive effect of Kaempferol-3-O-rutinoside, isolated from the plant Ouratea fieldingiana, on adult zebrafish (Danio rerio)

The aim of this study was to evaluate the antinociceptive effect of Kaempferol-3-O-rutinoside (KR), isolated from the plant Ouratea fieldingiana, on t…

www.sciencedirect.com

Next article also shows at least partial effect at TRPV1.

Pain Relief and Kaempferol: Activation of Transient Receptors Potential Vanilloid Type 1 in Male Rats

Background and Objective: Pain an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage. Kaempferol is one of the most important herbal active constituent with antinociceptive effects. The aim of this study was to...

psj.umsha.ac.ir

This next article is very interesting and seems to dive deeper into the exact opioid mechanism. We see that both Kaempferol and Quercetin have antidepressant effects and both significantly release B-endorphin, Kaempferol much more so.

What I find interesting is that at the dosages used (rather high) we see not much variation or correlation to B-endorphin release. This gives me hope that a much lower dose than used in this article may also have fairly potent releasing properties.

Antidepressant-like Effect of Kaempferol and Quercitirin, Isolated from Opuntia ficus-indica var. saboten

Opuntia ficus-indica var. saboten. is widely cultivated in Jeju Island (South Korea) for use in manufacture of health foods. This study described antidepressant effect of two flavonoids (kaempferol and quercitrin) isolated from the Opuntia ficus-indica ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I could keep going cuz there’s tons of articles on these flavonoids and their opioid activity, it now seems might be mediated by the release of B-endorphin instead of agonism at opioid receptors.

I’ve always wondered if releasing ones own endorphins is a bad thing? Can it become just as addictive as opiates?

-GC

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I wish honey wasn't a trigger food for my IBS issues... Really want to try out that Rosemary honey now, but fact of the matter is a whole tsp of honey would have me cramping realllll hard... hmph.

Maybe I'll eat a whole tsp of regular honey tonight just to see if I do cramp as bad as I recall, or if any of the meds I take for it can help stop potential cramping. Alprazolam works best but obviously has its own psychoactivity I'd like to avoid in such an experiment.

 

[G_Chem]

I wish honey wasn't a trigger food for my IBS issues... Really want to try out that Rosemary honey now, but fact of the matter is a whole tsp of honey would have me cramping realllll hard... hmph.

Maybe I'll eat a whole tsp of regular honey tonight just to see if I do cramp as bad as I recall, or if any of the meds I take for it can help stop potential cramping. Alprazolam works best but obviously has its own psychoactivity I'd like to avoid in such an experiment.

You should purchase a Kaempferol extract and give that a try. That way you can avoid the honey plus I’m curious myself now on its isolated activity. Just today saw an extract online that was 5 grams of 50% extract.

-GC

 

[G_Chem]

Before I get into my next report I’d first like to answer my own question from before. Is releasing our own B-endorphin addictive? The answer is probably yes, one study showed B-endorphin release reinforced UV-light seeking behavior. So it would be assumed Kaempferol rich honey would be as well. My current experience seems to mirror that, not nearly as addicting as exogenous opiates but addicting nonetheless.

Moving on..

Second experience with Melipona beecheii honey/pollen. This time my wife joined me. She tried a small dab to check for allergies then had the same dose as me. Both took 1/8th of a teaspoon, roughly.

The taste is just exquisite, imagine the fruitiest most floral honey you’ve ever tried. I also had what felt like a slight numbing sensation reminiscent of kavalactones in the back of my throat and back of tongue but was so light it could’ve been placebo.

This time the effect was a bit more introverted, definitely stronger. For the first 20-30mins I felt a noticeable breathing depression that was easily remedied by standing up instead of sitting or laying down.

I felt a warming on my neck and ears very similar to cannabis, particularly if I haven’t smoked in awhile. My vision took on a unique character somewhat like cannabis but even more trippy, similar to a huge dose of kava tincture. Like colors got splotchy, people’s faces on TV had this odd look like I’ve never seen before in an ugly way.

Eventually I settled in and once we changed to a show I was feeling the laughter started like before. It definitely feels setting dependent, other shows weren’t that interesting, I just wanted something funny.

The effect seemed to last longer this time, maybe because I stayed up longer. After about 3 hours my wife was passing out (unusual) and decided it was time to sleep. Both slept soundly.

My wife was questioning whether she felt it very strongly or not at that dosage. That said from my observation she displayed a lot of the same signs as me, and her falling asleep on the couch is very unusual. She’s the type where she sometimes takes things too far cuz “she’s not feeling it” so keep that in mind as well. She’s not tripping until she can barely keep it together.

With that dose last night I think I’m starting to get a read on the potency of this stuff. Next time we’re going to try 1/4 to 1/2 tsp which I’m sure will be very noticeable in effect.

After last night I’m feeling more confident in my assertion there’s kavalactone-like components in this honey. The effects feel likely mediated by cannabinoid and/or GABA receptors. I hope to really dive into this honey in the coming months to learn more.

Edit- This morning I still kinda think I’m feeling it. I had to make a video and couldn’t for the life of me stop laughing, irrational laughter. Besides that and a slight fuzzy head I’m pretty much normal.

-GC

 

[Xorkoth]

You should purchase a Kaempferol extract and give that a try. That way you can avoid the honey plus I’m curious myself now on its isolated activity. Just today saw an extract online that was 5 grams of 50% extract.

-GC

I just ordered some extract. I'm coming to the very end of a suboxone taper so any help I can get would be great. I will report back.

 

[G_Chem]

I just ordered some extract. I'm coming to the very end of a suboxone taper so any help I can get would be great. I will report back.

Soon as I get some loot up I’ll order some too. Gosh if it works that would be a lifesaver.. Please let me know what you think. It might be great alternative too and less addicting comparatively to other opioids. Excited to hear how it goes!

Your a good candidate too since your not looking to get blasted.

-GC

 

[Kellsee]

Oh I love info like this! Thank you for sharing!


Id say this probably doesnt relate( Idk cause havent read everything yet) but I make sure all of my skin care products have Manuka honey in it. It has more medicinal properties than other honey

 

[G_Chem]

Oh I love info like this! Thank you for sharing!


Id say this probably doesnt relate( Idk cause havent read everything yet) but I make sure all of my skin care products have Manuka honey in it. It has more medicinal properties than other honey

The place I got the Melipona beecheii honey sent me some soap made with the pollen too, I’ve been liking it. My wife’s been trying to get me to do skincare stuff lately (I wonder if she’s hinting at something lol) and I told her I’d only do it if honey was involved.

I’ve yet to try Manuka but want to. The jars I’ve seen in the store scare me if they’re actually legit or not.

-GC

 

[anti_MK]

You should purchase a Kaempferol extract and give that a try. That way you can avoid the honey plus I’m curious myself now on its isolated activity. Just today saw an extract online that was 5 grams of 50% extract.

-GC

If kaempferol is an MAOI, beware of interactions...

"Pure kaempferol and a number of related flavonoids were examined as MAOIs in-vitro. Kaempferol, apigenin and chrysin proved to be potent MAOIs, but produced more pronounced inhibition of MAO-A than MAO-B"

Identification of kaempferol as a monoamine oxidase inhibitor and potential Neuroprotectant in extracts of Ginkgo biloba leaves - PubMed

The effects of Ginkgo biloba leaf extract on rat brain or livermonoamine oxidase (MAO)-A and -B activity, biogenic amine concentration in nervous tissue, N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA)- and N-(2-chloroethyl)-N-ethyl-2-bromobenzylamine (DSP-4)-induced neurotoxicity and antioxidant activity was...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[G_Chem]

If kaempferol is an MAOI, beware of interactions...

"Pure kaempferol and a number of related flavonoids were examined as MAOIs in-vitro. Kaempferol, apigenin and chrysin proved to be potent MAOIs, but produced more pronounced inhibition of MAO-A than MAO-B"

Identification of kaempferol as a monoamine oxidase inhibitor and potential Neuroprotectant in extracts of Ginkgo biloba leaves - PubMed

The effects of Ginkgo biloba leaf extract on rat brain or livermonoamine oxidase (MAO)-A and -B activity, biogenic amine concentration in nervous tissue, N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA)- and N-(2-chloroethyl)-N-ethyl-2-bromobenzylamine (DSP-4)-induced neurotoxicity and antioxidant activity was...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Good catch. I’m trying to figure out just how potent but can’t seem to make a connection to other known MAOI’s with my very limited pharmacological knowledge.

I’m wondering at what dose MAO-A (mostly) inhibition occurs, and if opioid effects occur at a dose lower than needed for proper MAO inhibition.

-GC

 

[Skorpio]

It shows also effect at TRPV1

Is it spicy/does it block capsaicin spice? Could be an easy assay to try and a neat datapoint (I'd hold it in my mounth and then see if it potentiates or blocks some hot peppers).

 

[G_Chem]

So although a couple research articles show these as MAOI’s, why do I see no warnings really anywhere about it? Surely if they inhibited MAO-A so strongly we’d see issues, especially with how prevalent Quercetin is in food at 5-40mg a day. 500mg is a common supplement dosage.

I have some 50% Kaempferol coming myself, @Xorkoth if your hesitant to try I can go first here in a couple weeks

-GC

 

[Skorpio]

So although a couple research articles show these as MAOI’s, why do I see no warnings really anywhere about it? Surely if they inhibited MAO-A so strongly we’d see issues, especially with how prevalent Quercetin is in food at 5-40mg a day. 500mg is a common supplement dosage.

I have some 50% Kaempferol coming myself, @Xorkoth if your hesitant to try I can go first here in a couple weeks

-GC

Quercetin is super poorly absorbed and extensively metabolized in humans. I need really strong evidence that it has bioactive effects.

To test if kaempferol is an MAOI, you could try preloading with kaempferol and then ingesting DMT. If it has effects than MAOI activity would be likely. Id probably do a DMT only test (waste I know) just to make sure you dont have metabolic quirks and oral DMT works for you.

 

[G_Chem]

Quercetin is super poorly absorbed and extensively metabolized in humans. I need really strong evidence that it has bioactive effects.

To test if kaempferol is an MAOI, you could try preloading with kaempferol and then ingesting DMT. If it has effects than MAOI activity would be likely. Id probably do a DMT only test (waste I know) just to make sure you dont have metabolic quirks and oral DMT works for you.

I will do just that! I’ve taken it sublingual and oral with little/no effect so it should be a good test. And I got no problem wasting some DMT for the cause.

I’ll be reporting back on this one.

-GC

 

[Skorpio]

I will do just that! I’ve taken it sublingual and oral with little/no effect so it should be a good test. And I got no problem wasting some DMT for the cause.

I’ll be reporting back on this one.

-GC

Right on! I cant think of any other MAO substrate that is both safe to take with an inhibitor, and provides such a strong physiological signal that it is not being broken down.

What will your timing of dosing of the two drugs be, and what will your doses be?

So excited for the results!

 

[G_Chem]

Right on! I cant think of any other MAO substrate that is both safe to take with an inhibitor, and provides such a strong physiological signal that it is not being broken down.

What will your timing of dosing of the two drugs be, and what will your doses be?

So excited for the results!

I’ve actually never taken an MAOI before because I was under the false impression for a long time it would be unsafe with buprenorphine.

My guess is 60-90min before the DMT, I’ll dose probably 500mg of Kaempferol extract 50%. Then maybe take 50mg DMT. Is that enough DMT or should I do like 70-80?

-GC

 

[Skorpio]

I’ve actually never taken an MAOI before because I was under the false impression for a long time it would be unsafe with buprenorphine.

My guess is 60-90min before the DMT, I’ll dose probably 500mg of Kaempferol extract 50%. Then maybe take 50mg DMT. Is that enough DMT or should I do like 70-80?

-GC

For freebase DMT, apparently 35 mg yields threshold effects. 50 mg for the fumarate.

The dose of 50 mg sounds pretty good honestly. Not too incapacitating, but should give a nice little trip if there are MAOI effects.

I would say to be rigorous, if you do trip off of the MAOI and 50 mg DMT, wait a week and try the DMT on its own. That way you will have a negative control with the exact conditions of the test except for the kaempferol

Apparently prepared capers have 131 mg/100 g kaempferol. That would certainly be a way to start a trip, eating a large bowl of capers.

 

[G_Chem]

Update on Rosemary Honey:

So yesterday I was feeling like garbage from drinking alcohol the night before, I decided to take a half teaspoon of Rosemary Honey which helped alleviate a lot of discomfort. Not high or anything but just relaxed my body and anxiety.

I researched and found Rosemary honey should be safe for dogs, if anything healthy for them same as humans. I gave them each a half teaspoon as well to see if it could relax them to be ok having a chill day (since I was out of commission to walk or play). They both cuddle up on the couch about 30min later and spent most of the day looking relaxed.

What was interesting though was later that night I had a tiny bit of goat cheese which gave a tiny short duration hypertension headache indicative of possible MAOI action. I very rarely get headaches from goat cheese but they are possible, goat cheese is low in tyramine and casein relatively.

But then later that night I took a fairly small hit of DMT, expecting a light dose and looking for possible antidepressant effects the following couple days. I was very surprised by the intensity of the dosage I used.

I’m beginning to believe Kaempferol is indeed a potent MAO-inhibitor :/ I never knew before because my diet is very MAOI friendly with mostly fresh meats, vegetables and fruits.

I’ll know more soon when I try my experiment with purified Kaempferol.

-GC