Question about dosing, high T levels (HRT, FTM)

Eligiu

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Somewhat long post, but don't know why my levels are rising.

So I've been on HRT for close to a decade now. Started November 2015.

I have been on every conceivable form of HRT testosterone except the ones which are dangerous (pellets) in my country.

I do NOT dose to bulk, though I am happy with any gains I have made through my transition which have happened 'naturally' (and I say naturally because my HRT dose is far lower than any of you guys would take to be bulking up, and a trans body builder who has won competitions and uses steroids, Alex Tilicia talks about dosing and being trans and due to in the past having my testosterone go super fucking high and aromatising back into estrogen and all the *lovely* awesome things that came along with that, I have never been much interested in using it for that reason) and my fat redistribution mainly.

My build is slim/athletic - I play/have played competitive level soccer and lacrosse with cisgender men, though I am a goalie in lacrosse (I do run on field a lot however) but this is in Australia, so like... Don't go assuming I'm like a world record holder. This is Saturday amatuer competition men's sport at the top level, or close to it.

At first I was on what is called 'primoteston' which apparently is testosterone enantate 250mg/1ml. I took that every 3 weeks, from November 2015 until late, must have been December 2017 or early January 2018.

Initially in my transition I was eh, a bit fat lol. I was 90kg, and 178cm tall. Which is maybe 200 pounds, 5"10 ish. I ate a fuck tonne of pizza and drank a shitload of beer in Germany lmfao. So when I needed to do the shots myself I had plenty of fat and shit to grab onto.

Cue homelessness and meth and heroin/codeine and Xanax and everything else addiction and no food and whatever. I dropped 20kg in 2 months and I didn't feel confident doing my own shots anymore. So I got the nurses at my university clinic to do them.

In early 2018 I went overseas to Germany to complete my final German language course for my degree, and would be staying a total of 2 months give or take. And I was apprehensive about doing my own shots due to fucking them up in the past. So I saw my endocrinologist, and he agreed to swap me to reandron (testosterone undecanoate) which is an 8-12 weekly shot of 1000mg/4ml of testosterone. The whole point was I'd time it so I'd do one shot just before I left, and then get back in time for another shot. Worked perfectly.

Then I just stayed on that the whole next while. But like an idiot, I got slack on blood tests.

By the time I tested my testosterone in January 2019, in *was* technically doping lol. My testosterone was 52, and in Australia we measure normal levels as between 12-24. 24 being the absolute highest, and given it was 52 just before I had a shot, goddamn it must have been higher during the trough. The reason it got so high that time was that I was taking the highest dose, 1000mg/4ml, at only 8 week intervals. Not my smartest move.

Thankfully that time, no unwanted side effects.

The doctor who I saw when I had the blood tests happened to be one in a country town I was living in due to doing a legal placement there. He told me (and I make no comment on the accuracy or truth of this, and found out later it also did me no help) that gel can be better for people who have things like bipolar, as the daily dosing doesn't have the peak and trough that reandron has. Now I later found out that was bullshit, but I was concerned at my T being 52 so I asked my regular GP who managed my testosterone after the endocrinologist was happy with my progress to swap me to gel.

I waited. And I waited. And I waited. I waited like 4 months for my testosterone to drop low enough to start dosing again. And I started. And almost immediately on a full dose (4 pumps) my T rose above normal limits again, so my GP reduced me to 3 pumps, then 2 in order to manage this issue.

This seemed to fix it, but by the end of 2020 I had issues arising from hormones again, and I asked him in desperation (I was having periods, which I had not had since my first testosterone shot and which made me want to fucking die) to check my estrogen. When my bloods came back my testosterone was over 50, my estrogen was near 800. He promptly sent me to a specialist as he was honest that he had no clue how to fix this and I needed to see someone who did.

When I saw her, the first thing she did was put me on progesterone, this tanked my estrogen thankfully and I stopped having monthly reminders of my cursed birth. She also told me that due to my low body fat percentage (I am generally, and very much was at this time incredibly lean) that gel tends to stay in muscles when there is low body fat and it builds up and up and up.

She dropped my dose to 1 pump. My testosterone dropped to 4. At this stage I relented and went back on the shots.

It took a fucking probably year of fiddling with the dose spacing of 12 weeks, and not being on 1000mg/4ml but 3ml to get to stable levels finally.

Cue the next issue. I had a hysterectomy. I'd been planning one since I started transitioning, and only due to lack of time in 2018 onwards did I not do it (dedicating too much time to sport and law school meant no time off) but last year I finally had time, the support due to life circumstances and did it.

With full awareness that I now need hormones my whole life going forward, and the knowledge I may end up needing supplemental estrogen in addition to testosterone I went through with this procedure because I never ever again wanted to ever fucking deal with that shit. No thanks. Plus the concept of birthing my own children has forever been repulsive to me. So this was a natural step.

I got my most recent blood's done, after accidentally getting them done a day late my specialist sent me away and booked me to come back the following week.

And my testosterone is high AGAIN! And this time she doesn't know what the fuck is causing it. My weight does and has fluctuated yes, between maybe 68kg-72kg but I exercise weekly, I often walk 2 hours to and from my GP. I do kickboxing for an hour every week. My medications have not changed.

I have now been shifted from 1000mg/3ml shot 12 weeks apart to 1000mg/2ml shit 14 weeks apart. It's been 13 weeks since my last shot. At week 12 my testosterone was 24, which is the absolute higher upper limit. She couldn't give me my shot and booked me to come back in a month and a half. At this rate it'll be 18 goddamn weeks between shots.

I have always considered myself to be naturally high in testosterone. People who see pictures of me before I started hormones comment that I look more androgynous than any trans man they have seen. I pass as cis (with underwear on obviously) my voice is very deep, I have a lot of body and facial hair, I was able to lift pretty decent weights (double my BW deadlifting and squatting, fuck all benchpress because soccer lol but still I was stronger than my cis friend I went to the gym with. He commented that my power to weigh ratio was 'insane' for someone who didn't train much).

The fuck is causing this issue?

And please, sincere suggestions only - I have reached a time long ago in my transition where I no longer care to hear the opinions of people who think I am delusional and tricking myself. I'm happy as fuck with what testosterone has done to my body, I would just like to know whether anyone here has insight my specialist wasn't able to offer me as to why my body seems to perpetually want to produce an excess of testosterone.

There is zero point passing comment about the effectiveness of testosterone on my body, and my subsequent improved quality of life. I pass as a cis guy to anyone who walks past me on the street and when I look in the mirror, I finally see me (except for the barber cutting an extra cm off my hair last week but you know, Barber's hear 'just a trim' and they go 'oh I'll just cut half of it off). Aside from that, transitioning is the one thing in my life that has kept me alive, honest to god.
 
Hi There, my knowledge of your particular presentation is limited, I've read your history so will comment on what I can.

Before considering any hormonal therapy I would attempt to ensure nutrition was optimal, and consistent, without question..
Have you considered keto.? High healthy fats, low to zero carbs. Organic Fresh meats, fish, eggs, cheeses, multiple fresh organic coloured vegetables, nuts, seeds, olives, avocado, cook only in butter or ghee. Zero processed grains, no sugars (or fruit juice), zero vegetable seed oils.. Not convenience (junk) food.. No commercial dairy..

That should eliminate environmental toxins, herbicides, pesticides, synthetic estrogens etc..

I've recently had a DNA test that covers individual genetic profile of health and disease process, so would start there..

I might assume your genetic profile may have lead you to possess more testosterone, either by synthesising more, or by not metabolising it fast enough, so you have more residual testosterone than normal. Only an assumption..

I note you've had hysterectomy, which seems recent. I'm unsure if this might change some aspects of your original presentation.?

It appears the testosterone delivery system you have been using, has either not been optimal, or consistant, also the regular testing seems to have been problematic.
I have always had my concerns about the initial high dose delivery of Reandron, that it could be too high..

Testosterone enanthate IM injected once or twice a week, once titrated to find the correct dose could work, but the injection frequency puts off some people..

Daily gel or patches could be your best option, you can titrate the dose to correlate with REGULAR blood tests..

The issue of high testosterone, as previously mentioned could be one or both of two options. You are applying too much, and/or the testosterone you have applied is not being metabolised at a normal rate.. There are a number of genes at play, CYP3A4 is one in particular that if inhibited slows the breakdown of testosterone. Grapefruit is known to inhibit CYP3A4, so limit if you consume often..
I assume you no longer have ovaries, so past estrogen issues shouldn't be a future issue.. Please be aware adipose tissue (belly fat) contains CYP19A1 an enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogen, so keep an eye on belly fat..
The adrenal gland also produces testosterone, you may or may not be a naturally high producer, I don't believe your hysterectomy should influence that production.

In closing, on a difficult subject, not one I am familiar with, I might suggest your dosing method, and schedule is NOT optimal. It may take a while monitoring your daily dose with blood tests to get the best results.
Unfortunately consistency is essential, you may have to be stricter in your regime to get blood testosterone levels in the correct range for you..
 
Quite the post- usually deal with getting too little background lol- is the question "why are T levels high now?"

I did a lot of skimming but the one thing I picked up on is that if you're lower in bf% and post hysterectomy you're going to be aromatizing testosterone -> estrogens differently
 
Hi There, my knowledge of your particular presentation is limited, I've read your history so will comment on what I can.

Before considering any hormonal therapy I would attempt to ensure nutrition was optimal, and consistent, without question..
Have you considered keto.? High healthy fats, low to zero carbs. Organic Fresh meats, fish, eggs, cheeses, multiple fresh organic coloured vegetables, nuts, seeds, olives, avocado, cook only in butter or ghee. Zero processed grains, no sugars (or fruit juice), zero vegetable seed oils.. Not convenience (junk) food.. No commercial dairy..


That should eliminate environmental toxins, herbicides, pesticides, synthetic estrogens etc..

Unfortunately, I have ARFID linked to my autism (Avoidant Restrictive Food Intake Disorder) which at its worst had me eating only cup two minute noodles for years at a time. I also have some food related trauma from my childhood and disordered eating, but not an eating disorder. Ie, I don't actually want to lost weight, I look in the mirror and I'm chill with what I see these days and getting close to 30 I know unless I really crack down and eat chicken and drink lots of water and hit the gym every day I... Won't have abs... But I am struggling severely with disability right now. Currently I eat the exact same honey flavoured and brand yoghurt I've eaten every day for breakfast for the past 2.5 years or so. Lunch is generally a 'snacking window' my dietician and I agreed on when it became clear lunch wasn't really working. If I'm lucky I'll hit a Bahn mi (Vietnamese meat roll) for lunch. If not, muesli bars, hummus and crackers/pita, rice and tuna. Honestly my diet isn't terrible. And then I swap between things like chicken Alfredo, chicken and kangaroo stroganoff (Brasilian style with the help of my Brasilian support worker), chicken not Alfredo, that other one... Carbonara. Not even chicken lol. Um, Shepard's pie, tuna and mashed potato. Bolognaise, polenta.

Rarely, I'll go and eat takeout. My diet has significantly improved from:
Breakfast: handful of skittles
Lunch: half a bag of small crisps
Dinner: small chocolate protein drink.

My other snacks are protein cookies. Low fat etc. Bodybuilder type shit. I've tried a variety of flavours. But their high cost keeps me from eating them constantly thankfully.

I only drink soy milk. But can't cut out yoghurt as it's my only staple for breakfast until this honey flavour becomes dead to me. Cause my staples sort of rotate like that.


I've recently had a DNA test that covers individual genetic profile of health and disease process, so would start there..

I might assume your genetic profile may have lead you to possess more testosterone, either by synthesising more, or by not metabolising it fast enough, so you have more residual testosterone than normal. Only an assumption..

I have not had DNA testing. Prior to my hysterectomy I considered getting my chromosomes tested as there was strong suspicion that I was intersex due to not being able to find my reproductive organs on a scan, PCOS (which theoretically is sort of a vague form of being intersex in a way) and my seemingly super high testosterone. I was using men's toilets before I started on hormones and never had a second look. I literally have people not believing me that I transitioned.


I note you've had hysterectomy, which seems recent. I'm unsure if this might change some aspects of your original presentation.?

I don't quite understand what you mean by my original presentation - I only had my surgery last year in October. Physically, nothing much has changed and I honestly kind of felt like that after the surgery. I was like 'huh did they forget to take this shit out?' compared to my top surgery. That obviously was noticeable.

In terms of my physiological make up, I would say yes it's likely changed something as the prior reasons my T went high were easily figured out and understood.

First time, stupidly dosed too high, too close together. Going on a full 1000mg/4mg dose only 8 weeks apart and not testing my blood regularly was dumb (to be fair, I was living with an abusive housemate and my cPTSD was a bit fucked up so once I left there I got on top of testing and I have pages and pages of my last few years.

Second time, the issues with being too lean came into play.

It appears the testosterone delivery system you have been using, has either not been optimal, or consistant, also the regular testing seems to have been problematic.
I have always had my concerns about the initial high dose delivery of Reandron, that it could be too high..

It was too high. But I wasn't seeing a specialist just my GP. There's a reason he sent me to a specialist lol. Poor guy. He does his best but he knows when he's beat.

My levels were stable from mid 2021 until my surgery on reandron at 3ml every 10-11 weeks. Was sitting nicely at 12-14 in the trough. My specialist even said she was happy for me to not have a blood test for at least 12 months as I'd had a year of steady results. Then this.


Testosterone enanthate IM injected once or twice a week, once titrated to find the correct dose could work, but the injection frequency puts off some people..

Daily gel or patches could be your best option, you can titrate the dose to correlate with REGULAR blood tests..

I was on daily gel, my testosterone still went to 52. That was the second time. On half a dose. Even skipping days too because my executive functioning is terrible.

At this stage in my life I can barely remember to take my bipolar meds. As necessary as this is, the gel... Just wasn't working. The other option unforutunely just isn't an option in Australia. We have one new one called Sustogen I think, a kind of shot but I don't think it's covered under the pharmaceutical benefits scheme so would be out of my price range. Reandron is affordable.


The issue of high testosterone, as previously mentioned could be one or both of two options. You are applying too much, and/or the testosterone you have applied is not being metabolised at a normal rate.. There are a number of genes at play, CYP3A4 is one in particular that if inhibited slows the breakdown of testosterone. Grapefruit is known to inhibit CYP3A4, so limit if you consume often..
I assume you no longer have ovaries, so past estrogen issues shouldn't be a future issue.. Please be aware adipose tissue (belly fat) contains CYP19A1 an enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogen, so keep an eye on belly fat..
The adrenal gland also produces testosterone, you may or may not be a naturally high producer, I don't believe your hysterectomy should influence that production.

In closing, on a difficult subject, not one I am familiar with, I might suggest your dosing method, and schedule is NOT optimal. It may take a while monitoring your daily dose with blood tests to get the best results.
Unfortunately consistency is essential, you may have to be stricter in your regime to get blood testosterone levels in the correct range for you..

I'm not sure how I can get stricter - I don't choose when my shots come, I go, if my testosterone is in the right range, I get the shot. If not, I don't get a shot. Unfortunately while I actually would love to try the Keto diet as I've heard great things about it for narcolepsy my fucking ARFID literally will stop me eating a pancake if it's not the one I am used to (ie plan with ice cream instead of with fruit, and it's embarrassing) so while I work with a dietician on expanding that and I have, I'd like to point out that I never used to eat fish and I eat salmon and tuna now, plus every month I attend an inclusive cooking class where I get no say in what I make and have to at least try it, so I'm making an effort to break this pattern.

I really appreciate your lengthy response. I think that a big part of is is that I have naturally seemed to have high testosterone - as a teenager before transitioning kids 'bullied' me at high school by calling me manly (worked out for me) and my shoulders are actually waaaay broader than my hips. My physique even is masculine. Most trans men have wiser hips which they can't really deal with by transitioning, whereas I'm sort of just a plank of wood. There wasn't much to work with. And I was physically stronger than all the girls I grew up playing sport with - hell, I played soccer with my senior A and B boys teams before hormones and while it was much harder than playing with girls I held my own against any other guy but the two who played state soccer like me and were decently better. But yeah, I had few issues transitioning over to men's sport, not even a year on hormones if that says anything and holding my own. The other trans guys we had on our team, didn't fare so well. But they weren't athletes.

It's pretty interesting how different it is to what you guys are aiming for, like I'm here freaking out about my high testosterone cause I really don't wanna have to do bloodletting like my mate does or have a fucking stroke and now that I've had a hysterectomy I need some form of HRT until I am in my early 60s or so, which means this shit needs to be figured out.

I'll raise this with my GP, see what he reckons about looking into my adrenal. Your the second person to mention that, so I think that's a direction I'll go in.

Re estrogen - specialist told me no estrogen needed post hysterectomy at this stage. Level is exactly where it's meant to be.

Quite the post- usually deal with getting too little background lol- is the question "why are T levels high now?"

I did a lot of skimming but the one thing I picked up on is that if you're lower in bf% and post hysterectomy you're going to be aromatizing testosterone -> estrogens differently

Yeah I thought so too. Estrogen isn't being aromatised from testosterone though in excess, was told that's all fine. I may ask my specialist to shoot through an email with my numbers on them or grab them off my GP so I can post them for you both to look at? Obviously we may use different measurements here but it may be better as a guidepount. Usually she gives me a copy but she didn't today.
 
First and foremost I want to state: I fully recognize you as male. However, phenotypically you may process hormones differently due to biology.
I looked at BMI values for females to double check and you are on the low end of normal (kudos). The reason of mentioning this is like GF said in regard to adipose tissue have aromatase enzymes. Being as lean as you are will prevent aromatization of test and cause levels to be higher. I also agree with him in having multiple shots per week if possible to keep levels stable until you can find your sweet spot. 2 "small" shots per week will help here maybe around 125mg/week to assess things (1/4 ml per shot). You could also have enzyme inhibition in the liver from something or just simply a low amount of them, causing test to accumulate in the body easier. Do you have any other negative interactions with drugs like psych meds, otc meds, or illicit meds that may confirm this? Estrogen wise you should be in a good spot now as no more ovaries and very low bodyfat.
 
First and foremost I want to state: I fully recognize you as male. However, phenotypically you may process hormones differently due to biology.
I looked at BMI values for females to double check and you are on the low end of normal (kudos). The reason of mentioning this is like GF said in regard to adipose tissue have aromatase enzymes. Being as lean as you are will prevent aromatization of test and cause levels to be higher. I also agree with him in having multiple shots per week if possible to keep levels stable until you can find your sweet spot. 2 "small" shots per week will help here maybe around 125mg/week to assess things (1/4 ml per shot). You could also have enzyme inhibition in the liver from something or just simply a low amount of them, causing test to accumulate in the body easier. Do you have any other negative interactions with drugs like psych meds, otc meds, or illicit meds that may confirm this? Estrogen wise you should be in a good spot now as no more ovaries and very low bodyfat.

Thank you for saying you recognise me as male.

Unfortunately I can't do the multiple shots per week as we have no form of testosterone available by prescription here which is that frequently dosed. We used to have Primoteston (once every 3 weeks) and now we have sustanon I think it's called (once every 3 weeks).

My specialist put out the idea of going back on the gel, but I'm worried I'll just have the same issue again with my levels going up on that.

With the reandron this time, my levels were stable up until after surgery.

She told me that there was no concern with my estrogen - I'd been worried it went too low after my hysterectomy as that is not completely unusual and some trans men then require topical estrogen, and due to being tired all the time I was worried it was that. She's excluded that, so I'm putting it down to the extremely traumatic past 6 months I've had.

So with the BMI, one of the things that testosterone does for trans men is that it causes fat redistribution into a male pattern. So basically we lost hip fat, and it goes onto our belly just like it would any cis man. I've never really known which BMI is 'right' to use, but all doctors seem to use the male BMI for me (and me being trans is in my medical charts, all of them always because I'm not stupid and it's medical information. It may not always be relevant like that time I went of psych meds and did meth for 2 weeks and made myself psychotic but it can be relevant). I know my BMI is on the upper end of normal for men, but it fluctuates between around 20-22 with my weight going between 65kg and 72kg. At my lowest once I was 60kg, at the moment I'm probably carrying the most fat I ever have except for when I was 90kg due to not playing team sport or going to the gym 5 days a week. I plan on getting back into soccer, and I'm very close to asking my personal trainer if I can start going to his kickboxing gym multiple times a week to start doing it more regularly, as well as possibly yoga (both martial arts and yoga have been proven to show benefits for people who have experienced significant trauma like myself, due to some sciencey shit. It's in a book by a really famous trauma doctor and researcher. Anyway. And I want to pick up indoor soccer again and play badminton socially. I'll need help to do all of this, because I can only do the kickboxing now since it's one on one and my anxiety doesn't escalate as high but I miss sport.

A normal gym is sadly out of the question. A kickboxing gym is close to too much, but my PT mentioned that the reason his company is so good for people with disabilities like mine joining the gym is due to their private gym, so I could ease back into it instead of the sensory nightmare that is weights dropping and the music. But I really, really fucking miss lifting cause I was getting real good at it.

If anyone wants want, I don't know if you all are on the discord but I could sent a photo (obviously not NSFW lol I'll wear shorts and a tank top which is tight enough to show what my physique is like and all that so that you can sort of understand the difference between me prior to testosterone and after, I actually have a photo of a weight comparison even just 6 months on T when I lost 20kg like a side by side I could find which might be helpful.

I think it must have something to do with having had surgery.

Does Progesterone do anything to testosterone? I was on that to suppress my estrogen beforehand cause of it going high. Obviously I stopped taking it.

Negative interactions... I wouldn't call them negative but

- I was able to take 1200mg of codeine a day (3 packets of ibuprofen plus) which meant if my math is right which it rarely is, either 12,000 or 18,000mg of ibuprofen. All up cumulatively, I did that for around 3 years.

- never ever have I ever had 'withdrawal' or discontinuance symptoms from taking psychiatric medication. Mine works for me, but my only issues when I come off them, is that my fucking brain decides to think I'm god (which to be fair isn't far of the tritth lol no I'm joking I have crippling self esteem ahhh) anyway um. Yeah I stopped taking even lithium without any issues. Mirtazapine, abilify, Risperidone, valproate (on that again now), prozac. All stopped, no issues. Also Seroquel XR and IR
- high tolerance for opiates (if the codeine didn't make that clear)
- ZERO response to tramadol. I mean zero. Nothing. At a packet and nothing happened.
- I drank 2-3 big bottles of dxm a day for like a year.
- I have been able to mix high levels of benzos, opiates and alcohol
- very high tolerance to alcohol
- very high tolerance to stiulants
- coffee gives me sever anxiety. I try not to drink much.

Can't think of anything else.

Thanks for your reply and taking time to think of some things
 
@Serotonin101

Huh, it turns out my BMI is actually the same in both the male and female range with the websites I've used. So I don't think my BMI has anything to do with it. I was interested in checking as you differentiated between genders (which websites I've used in the past have done) but more recently I remembered I didn't get asked to input my gender at all.

22.7 for both at the moment.

My muscle mass is also... Well I played soccer A LOT and have what some may term dummy thicc quads, in terms of how lean they are. Not like a bodybuilder and not like the guy I played with we called quadzilla but I am a very solid person. When people find out my weight they're actually surprised, most people guess me to be at about 65kg.

Also I just want to thank you for the way you phrased your first couple of sentences, it's totally fair to bring up the fact that genetically I am female in this regard and I can't deny that is a thing and it doesn't help me to do so. But some people would have come in here guns blazing going 'WELL ACKTUALLY you are a WOMAN' yada yada. So for you to take the time to actually confirm that you do view me as who I am, and actually are also saying that in part because you know the next part of what you're needing to say might suck for me is a level of kindness towards myself as a trans person I'm not accustomed to seeing on the internet outside of my own curated Facebook group lol. In fact I actually want to say I find it really cool as someone who was a bit of a gym rat for a while (term in the gay community for guys who hit the gym a lot) that this community seems to have a fair few people even other times I've posted compared to other groups on here being accepting of trans people.

Do you think it's got anything to do with gym guys also wanting to change how they look?
 
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@Serotonin101

Huh, it turns out my BMI is actually the same in both the male and female range with the websites I've used. So I don't think my BMI has anything to do with it. I was interested in checking as you differentiated between genders (which websites I've used in the past have done) but more recently I remembered I didn't get asked to input my gender at all.

22.7 for both at the moment.

My muscle mass is also... Well I played soccer A LOT and have what some may term dummy thicc quads, in terms of how lean they are. Not like a bodybuilder and not like the guy I played with we called quadzilla but I am a very solid person. When people find out my weight they're actually surprised, most people guess me to be at about 65kg.

Also I just want to thank you for the way you phrased your first couple of sentences, it's totally fair to bring up the fact that genetically I am female in this regard and I can't deny that is a thing and it doesn't help me to do so. But some people would have come in here guns blazing going 'WELL ACKTUALLY you are a WOMAN' yada yada. So for you to take the time to actually confirm that you do view me as who I am, and actually are also saying that in part because you know the next part of what you're needing to say might suck for me is a level of kindness towards myself as a trans person I'm not accustomed to seeing on the internet outside of my own curated Facebook group lol. In fact I actually want to say I find it really cool as someone who was a bit of a gym rat for a while (term in the gay community for guys who hit the gym a lot) that this community seems to have a fair few people even other times I've posted compared to other groups on here being accepting of trans people.

Do you think it's got anything to do with gym guys also wanting to change how they look?
I think it's because the gym often harbors social outcasts. And also those of us who take bodybuilding seriously have been accustomed to utilizing hormones to help us become physically who we want to be. You doing what you're doing is no different than what we do: using hormones to achieve a physical goal to match how you internally view yourself. That's not even taking into consideration the, let's be honest, "homoerotic" nature that is bodybuilding along with female competitors using hormones and virilizing and taking on more masculine appearances, but us still respecting them as the women they are. I think the only people we don't like are the ones who prey on and exploit us. Whether that's selling gimmicks, BS supplements and procedures, expensive hormone clinics to cater to us, etc. We're all wanting the same thing: to look how we want to look and be who we want to be and feel comfortable in our own skin.
 
Unfortunately, I have ARFID linked to my autism (Avoidant Restrictive Food Intake Disorder) which at its worst had me eating only cup two minute noodles for years at a time. I also have some food related trauma from my childhood and disordered eating, but not an eating disorder. Ie, I don't actually want to lost weight, I look in the mirror and I'm chill with what I see these days and getting close to 30 I know unless I really crack down and eat chicken and drink lots of water and hit the gym every day I... Won't have abs... But I am struggling severely with disability right now. Currently I eat the exact same honey flavoured and brand yoghurt I've eaten every day for breakfast for the past 2.5 years or so. Lunch is generally a 'snacking window' my dietician and I agreed on when it became clear lunch wasn't really working. If I'm lucky I'll hit a Bahn mi (Vietnamese meat roll) for lunch. If not, muesli bars, hummus and crackers/pita, rice and tuna. Honestly my diet isn't terrible. And then I swap between things like chicken Alfredo, chicken and kangaroo stroganoff (Brasilian style with the help of my Brasilian support worker), chicken not Alfredo, that other one... Carbonara. Not even chicken lol. Um, Shepard's pie, tuna and mashed potato. Bolognaise, polenta.

Rarely, I'll go and eat takeout. My diet has significantly improved from:
Breakfast: handful of skittles
Lunch: half a bag of small crisps
Dinner: small chocolate protein drink.

My other snacks are protein cookies. Low fat etc. Bodybuilder type shit. I've tried a variety of flavours. But their high cost keeps me from eating them constantly thankfully.

I only drink soy milk. But can't cut out yoghurt as it's my only staple for breakfast until this honey flavour becomes dead to me. Cause my staples sort of rotate like that.




I have not had DNA testing. Prior to my hysterectomy I considered getting my chromosomes tested as there was strong suspicion that I was intersex due to not being able to find my reproductive organs on a scan, PCOS (which theoretically is sort of a vague form of being intersex in a way) and my seemingly super high testosterone. I was using men's toilets before I started on hormones and never had a second look. I literally have people not believing me that I transitioned.




I don't quite understand what you mean by my original presentation - I only had my surgery last year in October. Physically, nothing much has changed and I honestly kind of felt like that after the surgery. I was like 'huh did they forget to take this shit out?' compared to my top surgery. That obviously was noticeable.

In terms of my physiological make up, I would say yes it's likely changed something as the prior reasons my T went high were easily figured out and understood.

First time, stupidly dosed too high, too close together. Going on a full 1000mg/4mg dose only 8 weeks apart and not testing my blood regularly was dumb (to be fair, I was living with an abusive housemate and my cPTSD was a bit fucked up so once I left there I got on top of testing and I have pages and pages of my last few years.

Second time, the issues with being too lean came into play.



It was too high. But I wasn't seeing a specialist just my GP. There's a reason he sent me to a specialist lol. Poor guy. He does his best but he knows when he's beat.

My levels were stable from mid 2021 until my surgery on reandron at 3ml every 10-11 weeks. Was sitting nicely at 12-14 in the trough. My specialist even said she was happy for me to not have a blood test for at least 12 months as I'd had a year of steady results. Then this.




I was on daily gel, my testosterone still went to 52. That was the second time. On half a dose. Even skipping days too because my executive functioning is terrible.

At this stage in my life I can barely remember to take my bipolar meds. As necessary as this is, the gel... Just wasn't working. The other option unforutunely just isn't an option in Australia. We have one new one called Sustogen I think, a kind of shot but I don't think it's covered under the pharmaceutical benefits scheme so would be out of my price range. Reandron is affordable.




I'm not sure how I can get stricter - I don't choose when my shots come, I go, if my testosterone is in the right range, I get the shot. If not, I don't get a shot. Unfortunately while I actually would love to try the Keto diet as I've heard great things about it for narcolepsy my fucking ARFID literally will stop me eating a pancake if it's not the one I am used to (ie plan with ice cream instead of with fruit, and it's embarrassing) so while I work with a dietician on expanding that and I have, I'd like to point out that I never used to eat fish and I eat salmon and tuna now, plus every month I attend an inclusive cooking class where I get no say in what I make and have to at least try it, so I'm making an effort to break this pattern.

I really appreciate your lengthy response. I think that a big part of is is that I have naturally seemed to have high testosterone - as a teenager before transitioning kids 'bullied' me at high school by calling me manly (worked out for me) and my shoulders are actually waaaay broader than my hips. My physique even is masculine. Most trans men have wiser hips which they can't really deal with by transitioning, whereas I'm sort of just a plank of wood. There wasn't much to work with. And I was physically stronger than all the girls I grew up playing sport with - hell, I played soccer with my senior A and B boys teams before hormones and while it was much harder than playing with girls I held my own against any other guy but the two who played state soccer like me and were decently better. But yeah, I had few issues transitioning over to men's sport, not even a year on hormones if that says anything and holding my own. The other trans guys we had on our team, didn't fare so well. But they weren't athletes.

It's pretty interesting how different it is to what you guys are aiming for, like I'm here freaking out about my high testosterone cause I really don't wanna have to do bloodletting like my mate does or have a fucking stroke and now that I've had a hysterectomy I need some form of HRT until I am in my early 60s or so, which means this shit needs to be figured out.

I'll raise this with my GP, see what he reckons about looking into my adrenal. Your the second person to mention that, so I think that's a direction I'll go in.

Re estrogen - specialist told me no estrogen needed post hysterectomy at this stage. Level is exactly where it's meant to be.



Yeah I thought so too. Estrogen isn't being aromatised from testosterone though in excess, was told that's all fine. I may ask my specialist to shoot through an email with my numbers on them or grab them off my GP so I can post them for you both to look at? Obviously we may use different measurements here but it may be better as a guidepount. Usually she gives me a copy but she didn't today.


You might actually be better off with a good sized dose of testosterone gel. Due to significant expression of 5-alpha reductase in the skin, testosterone gel results in higher (multifold) levels of systemically available dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which is significantly more androgenic than testosterone.

This is important since the very reason why testosterone is used in FtM individuals is to exploit the androgenic effects of testosterone since this is what produces the desired secondary sex characteristics. This why primarily anabolic compounds like oxandrolone (with relatively mild androgenic effects) are not used for FtM individuals but rather for female athletes who do not want these secondary sex characteristics (hair, facial feature changes etc).

In any event, gel, over a long period of time, should be quite a bit more effective in producing these desired results.

On a side note, it's quite a stretch to classify PCOS as even being remotely related to intersex conditions. Someone who is intersex is someone who is born with different primary sexual characteristics. PCOS doesn't causes this. So even the most hyperandrogenic forms of PCOS can't be seen as having an intersex connection unless said individual was actually born with differing primary sexual characteristics and/or chromosomal differences.

Would seem plausible however that those with PCOS have greater rates of gender dysphoria etc.
 
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@Eligiu As others have stated, testosterone is metabolised at different rates by different people, you seem to be far on the end of this spectrum.
Ideally you would do injections 2 or 3 times per week with a medium ester like Enanthate or Cypionate, but you say that it is not a viable option where you live.
Only thing I can think of is spacing your Undecanoate shots further apart until your test levels fall into a safe range for you.
Sadly by using Undecanoate this process is made longer because you'll need at least 100 days (5 half lives) on a given regime for the levels to reach stability, and I say at least because 100days is 5 half lives and the half life varies from person to person and you seem to metabolize at such a slow rate that maybe 5 half lives are closer to 120 days for you.
 
You might actually be better off with a good sized dose of testosterone gel. Due to significant expression of 5-alpha reductase in the skin, testosterone gel results in higher (multifold) levels of systemically available dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which is significantly more androgenic than testosterone.

This is important since the very reason why testosterone is used in FtM individuals is to exploit the androgenic effects of testosterone since this is what produces the desired secondary sex characteristics. This why primarily anabolic compounds like oxandrolone (with relatively mild androgenic effects) is not used for FtM individuals but rather for female athletes who do not want these secondary sex characteristics (hair, facial feature changes etc).

In any event, gel, over a long period of time, should be quite a bit more effective in producing these desired results.

On a side note, it's quite a stretch to classify PCOS as even being remotely related to intersex conditions. Someone who is intersex is someone who is born with different primary sexual characteristics. PCOS doesn't causes this. So even the most hyperandrogenic forms of PCOS can't be seen as having an intersex connection unless said individual was actually born with differing primary sexual characteristics and/or chromosomal differences.

Would seem plausible however that those with PCOS have greater rates of gender dysphoria etc.

Yeah, I mean I'm not the only person who has talked about PCOS being somewhat of an intersex condition - there's been some discussion scientifically about it and stuff. But having PCOS definitely didn't give me gender dysphoria, because I identify as male. It actually helped me in the respect that I had some desirable characteristics beforehand. My friend who has PCOS literally already had half a full beard before he started testosterone and after a month he looked like a lumberjack.

For me, having 'more desireable' effects is not really my concern anymore as I've been on testosterone for so long, that I have essentially reached maximum effectiveness at almost a decade. My beard will continue to fill out, and I use Minoxidil for that as well, but realistically speaking I won't achieve any further masculinisation from gel.

Gel is also generally prescribed in my community to those wanting minimal effects, such as those who might be trans masc non binary and don't want to see too many changes. I've seen people on gel testosterone who frankly haven't changed in the 5 years they've been taking it cause it's such a low dose.

So the issue with the gel is that for me specifically, it has historically caused this same problem. When I was on a higher dose of the gel, my testosterone went up above normal again, even when I was only taking 2 pumps. When I dropped to 1 pump, my testosterone dropped down to 4.

When I went on the shot my first blood test was relatively high as well, as that was the full 4ml dose, 9 weeks apart. I think it was mid 30s. So I got that changed to 3ml, 11 weeks apart.

That dose stabilised at around 12-14 in the week before my shot was due to the extent I was gonna be allowed to skip blood tests for ages, until my hysterectomy. Then this happened.

The other reason I'm wary of gel is that due to my executive functioning and needing assistance in taking my medication regardless, not just the gel. I suppose with having an increase in support I'm getting there will be someone around to help me remember, but I'm planning on becoming more active as I'm basically stuck in bed most of the day and I hate that. So I want to do more of my PT and kickboxing and indoor soccer so that will make me leaner again.

I know doing shots closer together is the better option with a different type of testosterone, but unfortunately it just isn't an option I have here to be prescribed because it literally just doesn't exist.

If I did use gel, I might talk to the chemist about having my prescription compounded if that would make any difference.
 
@Eligiu As others have stated, testosterone is metabolised at different rates by different people, you seem to be far on the end of this spectrum.
Ideally you would do injections 2 or 3 times per week with a medium ester like Enanthate or Cypionate, but you say that it is not a viable option where you live.
Only thing I can think of is spacing your Undecanoate shots further apart until your test levels fall into a safe range for you.
Sadly by using Undecanoate this process is made longer because you'll need at least 100 days (5 half lives) on a given regime for the levels to reach stability, and I say at least because 100days is 5 half lives and the half life varies from person to person and you seem to metabolize at such a slow rate that maybe 5 half lives are closer to 120 days for you.

Yeah. Clearly this just is a thing my body does. It hasn't always done it. My levels were pretty stable on ethanonate. Well looking back my GP was doing the blood tests and I'm pretty sure in the trough I was up at 20 and stuff like that not 12-14 like I was meant to be, so I would have been doing it with that type too.

Is Primoteston the same as the enanate you mean? Trans men are on that, 250mg every 3-5 weeks. Do cis men take that every couple of days or is that a different type of shot? I know there are sub cutaneous shots which are weekly or less
 
Yeah. Clearly this just is a thing my body does. It hasn't always done it. My levels were pretty stable on ethanonate. Well looking back my GP was doing the blood tests and I'm pretty sure in the trough I was up at 20 and stuff like that not 12-14 like I was meant to be, so I would have been doing it with that type too.

Is Primoteston the same as the enanate you mean? Trans men are on that, 250mg every 3-5 weeks. Do cis men take that every couple of days or is that a different type of shot? I know there are sub cutaneous shots which are weekly or less
Primoteston is a brand name for Testosterone Enanthate.
TRT for AMAB is normally between 100mg and 200mg per week, some people use up to 250.
If you get your shots done at a clinic they are 1 to 2 weeks apart, but most men prefer having their own vials at home and do 2 or 3 smaller shots per week.
That way, serum concentrations are more stable and there is less total aromatisation into Estradiol which makes it possible to not use any aromatase inhibitors for some.
I do my shots EOD and I go SubQ using either Enanthate or Cypionate.
 
@Eligiu
I've combined 2 graphs made with steroid plotter, stretching one so that the values of the 2 axis match.
In blue you have a shot of 200mg every 2 weeks and in orange a shot of 28.57mg EOD, so still 200mg in 2 weeks.
Both graphs are Test Enanthate.
The vertical axis is the mg of Test released per day, and you can expect serum concentrations to follow a very similar pattern.
Horizontal axis is the time in days.
The differences are pretty obvious and this stability is why many prefer to do their own shots at home.

Bi-Weekly-vs-EOD.png
 
I will again apologize for skimming the hell out of your posts, but damn, you can type bro

Have you considered sourcing/administering T on your own (grey area legal) I've been doing it for years for regular TRT. Cheaper and safer than you might think, but of course, not without downsides
 
@Eligiu
I've combined 2 graphs made with steroid plotter, stretching one so that the values of the 2 axis match.
In blue you have a shot of 200mg every 2 weeks and in orange a shot of 28.57mg EOD, so still 200mg in 2 weeks.
Both graphs are Test Enanthate.
The vertical axis is the mg of Test released per day, and you can expect serum concentrations to follow a very similar pattern.
Horizontal axis is the time in days.
The differences are pretty obvious and this stability is why many prefer to do their own shots at home.

Bi-Weekly-vs-EOD.png

Yeah. I can see the difference. Science is really not my strong point and I don't understand all the acronyms - do you mind explaining like I am 5? Is it two different types of testosterone? My shots currently will be spaced this next try at 14 weeks 2ml of reandron. If that doesn't work, I may have to try the daily gel or actually look into having it compounded I think to suit my needs specifically. We have chemists which can do that.

I will again apologize for skimming the hell out of your posts, but damn, you can type bro

Have you considered sourcing/administering T on your own (grey area legal) I've been doing it for years for regular TRT. Cheaper and safer than you might think, but of course, not without downsides

Ha. Yeah it's the autism. When I got put on staff I got told to ease up and I try to unless it's something like this and more information helps people answer my posts as we don't go back and forth with as many questions.

At this stage I have a couple of options left for legal T - daily gel, or compounded T, so I'll see if that is something I can do and go from there. Will also look into my adrenals when I see my GP this coming week.

Thanks for everyone's further input.
 
Also I told the trans people on the discord that the gym bros are the nicest group of people on the forum in terms of us talking about our hormones and it's basically turned into a 'cool gym bro allies' thing lol.
 
Yeah. I can see the difference. Science is really not my strong point and I don't understand all the acronyms - do you mind explaining like I am 5? Is it two different types of testosterone? My shots currently will be spaced this next try at 14 weeks 2ml of reandron. If that doesn't work, I may have to try the daily gel or actually look into having it compounded I think to suit my needs specifically. We have chemists which can do that.
Those 2 graphs would be your test levels doing either one big shot of 200mg every two weeks or 28.57mg every other day (which is still 200mg every 2 weeks, trust me on the math).
Both with the same type of Testosterone, the Enanthate ester ( ie Primoteston), the only difference is the frequency of the injections.

Other than having more stable Test levels, your total Estrogen production would be lower even though you would be using the same total amount of Test.
This would reduce skin issues like acne or oily skin in case you suffer from that, reduce water retention, and ofcourse your mood and mental energy would be more stable.
 
Yeah. I can see the difference. Science is really not my strong point and I don't understand all the acronyms - do you mind explaining like I am 5? Is it two different types of testosterone? My shots currently will be spaced this next try at 14 weeks 2ml of reandron. If that doesn't work, I may have to try the daily gel or actually look into having it compounded I think to suit my needs specifically. We have chemists which can do that.

To clarify a little for your better understanding.
The testosterone molecule is exactly the same, otherwise it wouldn't be testosterone, it would be another compound ie: Nandrolone, Trenbolone, etc..

What makes certain brands of testosterone different is the Ester attached to the 17 beta-hydroxy part of the testosterone molecule. ie: Acetate, Propionate, Enanthate, Cypionate, Decanoate, etc..

The ester can be a carbon chain, or a cyclopentyl ring, generally the number of carbon atoms determine the ester length, and the rate it absorbs into the bloodstream.

The ester determines the the speed that testosterone is released at any given time into blood..

Short esters are fast, long esters are slow..

Each ester has a given half life, ie: A set calculation at which that ester will be removed from the bloodstream over time.

Most of the half life tables you find on the internet are incorrect...

Ester Half-life:

Propionate: 0.8 days
Acetate: 1 day
Phenylpropionate: 1.5 days
Isocaproate: 4 days
Enanthate: 4.5 days
Cypionate: 5 days
Decanoate: 7.5 days
Undecanoate: 20.9 days

So, as you can see, it can be a complicated subject for most people to comprehend, when trying to achieve stable blood plasma levels of testosterone.
The dose, and ester each have a bearing on how much testosterone is released into blood, plus how long it stays there.

Then you have the added complication of compounded half lives. ie: there will still be some residual testosterone still in blood from a previous injection.

The trick is to calculate the amount left of testosterone from previous injections, so when added together with your new injection, you get very stable blood plasma levels, instead of high peaks of testosterone, then very little testosterone. This can cause issue if not worked out, or not injected with just the right amount, at just the right time.

That is why injecting yourself at home at precisely the right time frame, with just the right dose can be better than waiting for Doctors appointments, whenever they can fit you in....



A very interesting post about esters, from a friend R.I.P:
What is an ester ? In the context of injectable AAS an ester is an acid with carbon backbone of a certain length, that is attached to the 17beta-hydroxyl group of the AAS. The general purpose is to make the drug more lipophilic (fat-loving) so that it?s retention in the muscle is prolonged. Once the steroid reaches the bloodstream, the ester is hydrolyzed yielding the pure steroid in the bloodstream. As such an ester doesn’t actually change anything to what the actual steroid does. Pharmacokinetically it only slows the appearance and release into the bloodstream.
But there are three things to consider about esters and their relevance to AAS.

1.The difference in amount of the steroid injected. Usually longer esters, or the use of phenyl rings and double bonds, are more effective at slowing down the rate of appearance in blood. But both, and especially the use of Phenyl rings, increases the weight of the ester. That means when you express the weight of a steroid in solution, in conjunction with its ester, the heavier the ester, the less of the actual steroid it contains. For instance 100 mg/ml is a concentration. It expresses the amount, in weight, of a compound in 1 ml (the volume) of a solution. But the concentration is the concentration of the steroid with ester since they are listed as a single compound. Comparing two esters of the same drug, let?s say testosterone propionate, enanthate and cypionate, they will contain different amounts of actual testosterone once released in blood. They contain respectively 78.8, 67.8 and 65.8% of testosterone. So on a ml per ml basis with the same concentration, you get more testosterone out of Propionate. Of course since the pharmacodynamics of the compounds are different we use different concentrations and frequency of injection that will impact the amount of testosterone we get over a certain amount of time. As I hope to show at the end of this article, people often grossly overestimate the difference in content however. One I have commonly seen is when comparing tren enanthate to tren acetate. Somehow the perception has risen that 350 mg acetate is worth more than 600mg of enanthate. But at 81.1 and 66.2% respectively, you?ll find those doses amount to 284 and 397 mg of trenbolone each. A difference of more than 100mg in favour of enanthate. However enanthate is often used in a different fashion, injected one per half-life (weekly) and will build up slower. Hence stabilized levels are reached faster and stability is maintained easier with more frequent injection. However since many users now realize you can only judge the difference with a time shift of almost a week and a half, and are injecting enanthate bi-weekly to e3d we are actually seeing there isn?t a huge difference between the compounds. When you also compare price-wise that longer esters, at least for underground gear (tren being a good example since its always underground), are typically cheaper, it makes sense, for some compounds, to opt for the longer esters.

2.The difference in metabolization rate. AAS metabolize at the hands of a ton of enzymes in the body. The rate of appearance influences the rate of metabolization. The higher the bolus, the higher the degree of metabolization. Orals for instance will metabolize heavily, since they are released in a huge bolus, and go through the liver first. It?s no coincidence that the strongest oral anabolics are also those most often associated with effects mediated by their metabolites, like Methandrostenolone and especially oxymetholone. But we need to make a key difference between compounds with active metabolites, and those that have only inactive metabolites. For instance trenbolone has very few metabolites, and they are all inactive or less active. Fluoxymesterone has a ton of metabolites, but all of them less active. Testosterone however has tissue specific conversion to potent estrogens and androgens. So the a difference in rate of metabolisations impacts the effect it has on the body in terms of results and side-effects. When you inject testosterone suspension, you tend to blow up, because the bolus dose is heavily metabolized to both estrogen and DHT. It will also spike a steady increase in SHBG production to buffer it. This forms a tremendous base to build growth on, an anabolic environment, but it also drastically increases water retention, blood pressure and incidence of estrogenic side in those people prone to it. Ester testosterones do not have this problems because they slowly build up to a more stable dose, and despite small fluctuations is mostly kept stable throughout. This decrease the rate of metabolisation by spreading the testosterone out over time more. Even if you compare an acetate to a suspension, the acetate spreads the dose over 36-48 hours, where the base will enter blood within the hour. So while you might be inclined to use both on a daily basis, the effect is hugely different. This won?t apply to a huge amount of compounds, but it surely demonstrates that for testosterones, esters are more relevant than for most compounds.

3.Build-up and distribution of dose. You can easily compare esters of the same drug, provided you inject them at the same time-point during their half-life, and extrapolate them time-wise. If you inject once every half-life you can use tren acetate every 36 hours and tren enanthate once every 6 days. But in most cases we will use more frequently. This brings up two issues. The first is comparing products injected during different points, like tren acetate daily vs tren enanthate weekly. Obviously build-up will be considerably slower for the enanthate and the peak dose will be roughly around the half-life. With ed injections of acetate you will actually not just build up faster, but the peak dose will be higher than the half-life, because a larger dose of the first injection still remains in you when you place the second. As such you can really only compare equally spaced doses, based on half-life. So tren ace ed would only compare equally to tren enth e3d. The second problem is that because you are looking at a three times longer period, it takes three times longer to build up to the stable dose in this case. For ace that will only be about 5 days, for enth that will obviously be more like 15 days. For a compound like tren I?ve always found that side-effects are more severe during build-up. This could indeed give the impression that enanthate has more sides, because with ace you?d be through the worst of it in 5 days, and with enth that could last up to 2 weeks. That also means if you use equipotent doses like 350mg weekly of acetate and 430mg of enanthate weekly, that you?ll need to run the enanthate 2 weeks longer for the same results. Comparing doses like 350mg ace to 600mg enth however, you should arrive at the same or better results, provided both are run for a sufficient length of time (8+ weeks)

Percentage of steroid in common esters

Testosterone Propionate (78.8%)
Testosterone Phenylpropionate (64.5%)
Testosterone Enanthate (67.8%)
Testosterone Cypionate (65.8%)
Testosterone Undecanoate (59.4%)

Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (63.3%)
Nandrolone Decanoate (60%)

Trenbolone Acetate (81.1%)
Trenbolone Enanthate (66.2%)

Drostanolone Propionate (79.7%)
Drostanolone Enanthate (69%)

Methenolone Acetate (82.9%)
Methenolone Enanthate (68.8%)

Boldenone Undecylenate (59.5%)
 
To clarify a little for your better understanding.
The testosterone molecule is exactly the same, otherwise it wouldn't be testosterone, it would be another compound ie: Nandrolone, Trenbolone, etc..

What makes certain brands of testosterone different is the Ester attached to the 17 beta-hydroxy part of the testosterone molecule. ie: Acetate, Propionate, Enanthate, Cypionate, Decanoate, etc..

The ester can be a carbon chain, or a cyclopentyl ring, generally the number of carbon atoms determine the ester length, and the rate it absorbs into the bloodstream.

The ester determines the the speed that testosterone is released at any given time into blood..

Short esters are fast, long esters are slow..

Each ester has a given half life, ie: A set calculation at which that ester will be removed from the bloodstream over time.

Most of the half life tables you find on the internet are incorrect...

Ester Half-life:

Propionate: 0.8 days
Acetate: 1 day
Phenylpropionate: 1.5 days
Isocaproate: 4 days
Enanthate: 4.5 days
Cypionate: 5 days
Decanoate: 7.5 days
Undecanoate: 20.9 days

So, as you can see, it can be a complicated subject for most people to comprehend, when trying to achieve stable blood plasma levels of testosterone.
The dose, and ester each have a bearing on how much testosterone is released into blood, plus how long it stays there.

Then you have the added complication of compounded half lives. ie: there will still be some residual testosterone still in blood from a previous injection.

The trick is to calculate the amount left of testosterone from previous injections, so when added together with your new injection, you get very stable blood plasma levels, instead of high peaks of testosterone, then very little testosterone. This can cause issue if not worked out, or not injected with just the right amount, at just the right time.

That is why injecting yourself at home at precisely the right time frame, with just the right dose can be better than waiting for Doctors appointments, whenever they can fit you in....



A very interesting post about esters, from a friend R.I.P:
What is an ester ? In the context of injectable AAS an ester is an acid with carbon backbone of a certain length, that is attached to the 17beta-hydroxyl group of the AAS. The general purpose is to make the drug more lipophilic (fat-loving) so that it?s retention in the muscle is prolonged. Once the steroid reaches the bloodstream, the ester is hydrolyzed yielding the pure steroid in the bloodstream. As such an ester doesn’t actually change anything to what the actual steroid does. Pharmacokinetically it only slows the appearance and release into the bloodstream.
But there are three things to consider about esters and their relevance to AAS.

1.The difference in amount of the steroid injected. Usually longer esters, or the use of phenyl rings and double bonds, are more effective at slowing down the rate of appearance in blood. But both, and especially the use of Phenyl rings, increases the weight of the ester. That means when you express the weight of a steroid in solution, in conjunction with its ester, the heavier the ester, the less of the actual steroid it contains. For instance 100 mg/ml is a concentration. It expresses the amount, in weight, of a compound in 1 ml (the volume) of a solution. But the concentration is the concentration of the steroid with ester since they are listed as a single compound. Comparing two esters of the same drug, let?s say testosterone propionate, enanthate and cypionate, they will contain different amounts of actual testosterone once released in blood. They contain respectively 78.8, 67.8 and 65.8% of testosterone. So on a ml per ml basis with the same concentration, you get more testosterone out of Propionate. Of course since the pharmacodynamics of the compounds are different we use different concentrations and frequency of injection that will impact the amount of testosterone we get over a certain amount of time. As I hope to show at the end of this article, people often grossly overestimate the difference in content however. One I have commonly seen is when comparing tren enanthate to tren acetate. Somehow the perception has risen that 350 mg acetate is worth more than 600mg of enanthate. But at 81.1 and 66.2% respectively, you?ll find those doses amount to 284 and 397 mg of trenbolone each. A difference of more than 100mg in favour of enanthate. However enanthate is often used in a different fashion, injected one per half-life (weekly) and will build up slower. Hence stabilized levels are reached faster and stability is maintained easier with more frequent injection. However since many users now realize you can only judge the difference with a time shift of almost a week and a half, and are injecting enanthate bi-weekly to e3d we are actually seeing there isn?t a huge difference between the compounds. When you also compare price-wise that longer esters, at least for underground gear (tren being a good example since its always underground), are typically cheaper, it makes sense, for some compounds, to opt for the longer esters.

2.The difference in metabolization rate. AAS metabolize at the hands of a ton of enzymes in the body. The rate of appearance influences the rate of metabolization. The higher the bolus, the higher the degree of metabolization. Orals for instance will metabolize heavily, since they are released in a huge bolus, and go through the liver first. It?s no coincidence that the strongest oral anabolics are also those most often associated with effects mediated by their metabolites, like Methandrostenolone and especially oxymetholone. But we need to make a key difference between compounds with active metabolites, and those that have only inactive metabolites. For instance trenbolone has very few metabolites, and they are all inactive or less active. Fluoxymesterone has a ton of metabolites, but all of them less active. Testosterone however has tissue specific conversion to potent estrogens and androgens. So the a difference in rate of metabolisations impacts the effect it has on the body in terms of results and side-effects. When you inject testosterone suspension, you tend to blow up, because the bolus dose is heavily metabolized to both estrogen and DHT. It will also spike a steady increase in SHBG production to buffer it. This forms a tremendous base to build growth on, an anabolic environment, but it also drastically increases water retention, blood pressure and incidence of estrogenic side in those people prone to it. Ester testosterones do not have this problems because they slowly build up to a more stable dose, and despite small fluctuations is mostly kept stable throughout. This decrease the rate of metabolisation by spreading the testosterone out over time more. Even if you compare an acetate to a suspension, the acetate spreads the dose over 36-48 hours, where the base will enter blood within the hour. So while you might be inclined to use both on a daily basis, the effect is hugely different. This won?t apply to a huge amount of compounds, but it surely demonstrates that for testosterones, esters are more relevant than for most compounds.

3.Build-up and distribution of dose. You can easily compare esters of the same drug, provided you inject them at the same time-point during their half-life, and extrapolate them time-wise. If you inject once every half-life you can use tren acetate every 36 hours and tren enanthate once every 6 days. But in most cases we will use more frequently. This brings up two issues. The first is comparing products injected during different points, like tren acetate daily vs tren enanthate weekly. Obviously build-up will be considerably slower for the enanthate and the peak dose will be roughly around the half-life. With ed injections of acetate you will actually not just build up faster, but the peak dose will be higher than the half-life, because a larger dose of the first injection still remains in you when you place the second. As such you can really only compare equally spaced doses, based on half-life. So tren ace ed would only compare equally to tren enth e3d. The second problem is that because you are looking at a three times longer period, it takes three times longer to build up to the stable dose in this case. For ace that will only be about 5 days, for enth that will obviously be more like 15 days. For a compound like tren I?ve always found that side-effects are more severe during build-up. This could indeed give the impression that enanthate has more sides, because with ace you?d be through the worst of it in 5 days, and with enth that could last up to 2 weeks. That also means if you use equipotent doses like 350mg weekly of acetate and 430mg of enanthate weekly, that you?ll need to run the enanthate 2 weeks longer for the same results. Comparing doses like 350mg ace to 600mg enth however, you should arrive at the same or better results, provided both are run for a sufficient length of time (8+ weeks)

Percentage of steroid in common esters

Testosterone Propionate (78.8%)
Testosterone Phenylpropionate (64.5%)
Testosterone Enanthate (67.8%)
Testosterone Cypionate (65.8%)
Testosterone Undecanoate (59.4%)

Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (63.3%)
Nandrolone Decanoate (60%)

Trenbolone Acetate (81.1%)
Trenbolone Enanthate (66.2%)

Drostanolone Propionate (79.7%)
Drostanolone Enanthate (69%)

Methenolone Acetate (82.9%)
Methenolone Enanthate (68.8%)

Boldenone Undecylenate (59.5%)

Yeah. I mean at the moment my estrogen was tested and if anything, my specialist is more worried about my estrogen going low due to complete lack of ovaries. I was going to keep one ovary, but decided against it for the sake of reducing my cancer risk. Obviously this now means I must take some form of HRT for the remainder of my life or until natural menopause, but effectively I will want to be on testosterone forever.

I am going to ask about compounding when I see her, and ask one of the trans guys in my city who knows a lot about the current medications as to what other options. My current options that I know about are.

1. Reandron 2ml every 12 weeks (this will be my new adjusted dose at next shot)
2. Sustagel/susta something. Not sure about this one I'll need to ask.
3. Gel in bottles. I think the name is Testogel. 4, 3, or 2 pumps daily. But I had a problem with this previously.
4. Other types of gel.
5. Pellets. Not sure this is an option where I live.
6. Tablets are bad for liver. Not wanting that.

Primoteston is not an option.

In my country, on the pharmaceutical benefits scheme my medication costs $7 per prescription until I reach the threshold of paying so much from being on so many medications for my disabilities they become free. I am on the disability welfare payments and I do not have a huge disposal income. I have a lot of debt, and I do not use drugs as regularly as I used to and am aiming to completely quit. My big expense is my rent as I pay high rent to live in a place better for my mental health, but being disabled is expensive and there are things my disability insurance funding does not pay for that I need. Hence the debt.

Paying for stuff off the PBS really isn't a sustainable option for me, and given Australias laws around this and wanting to be a lawyer I want to not risk anything more than I already have with prior decisions.

On top of that I need to consider which version of dosing will be easiest for me to remember due to my poor executive functioning. I have a support worker who calls me every morning and night to remind me to take my meds. Theoretically he could remind me to do the gel as well, but for the same reason I went on the Buprenorphine injection, I have a preference for things I need to remember to do less as I am terribly forgetful.

I will update with more info about compounding and other options for your input as if I can work a system with workers reminding me to dose on a specific day etc with shorter intervals with a different available type of testosterone I will definitely look into that.
 
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