Sexual Preferences vs "Transphobia"

[Foreigner]

I think Eligiu is essentially correct, here. I wouldn't sleep with a transitioned trans woman and I accept that that is a transphobic preference. I wouldn't let a man give me fellatio, either, even if I closed my eyes and couldn't see him, and I suppose that's homophobic. And lots of people might not want to sleep with people of this or that race, which is racist. Or obese people, which is fat-phobic. But beyond the semantics I don't actually think this is a great sin. There are important and reasonable public efforts to limit discrimination in employment, housing, etc., but if you only want to sleep with blonde men with blue eyes who were born that way, whatever, it's your personal sex life and there's no reason you should feel compelled to sleep with (or date, kiss, whatever) someone you don't want to just so you can avoid a label you find uncomfortable.

I think the ideal version of myself would not care about any of this and would be willing to love anybody, no matter what they looked like or what gender/path-to-current-gender/sexual orientation/etc. they were. But I'm not, I have specific and uncomfortably shallow attractions, and frankly it's not something I am going to change.

I wanted to respond to this but the mods have not reopened the other thread. It was a dumpster fire anyway and I'd start a new civil conversation because I think it's important. Whomever decides to partake in this thread, please avoid name-calling and passive-aggressive nonsense.

I don't agree that not wanting to sleep with a trans person makes one transphobic, if the reason they're not sleeping with them is because of genital configuration. Transphobia implies prejudice and hateful discrimination. I'm personally a gay male and I won't sleep with a man who doesn't have a penis. Some other gay males may feel differently. For example, I know gay men who would accept a blowjob from a woman under certain circumstances because "a mouth is a mouth," but I wouldn't. It doesn't mean I hate women. I want everyone to be happy and end up with someone who is into them.

Claiming that because I won't sleep with trans men that I am transphobic is like saying I'm misogynist (or "heterophobic") because I won't consider sleeping with cis women. If I am not attracted to vaginas then why would I have sex with somebody who has one? There is no -phobia involved. It is literally about where my carnal attraction does or doesn't happen. There is no ideology driving it.

I also don't agree that this is exactly the same as refusing to be with someone based on their race. If you are not physically attracted to someone then you're not physically attracted to someone, but if you specifically have ruled out an entire ethnicity then that is racist because people come in all kinds of configurations within an ethnicity. Trans men on the other hand all have vaginas (or fake penises) and if my requirement is a natural penis then that naturally means I will not be able to be with trans men -- anymore than I would be able to be with cis women. It is physically impossible for me to be turned on by a vagina.

Claiming this incompatibility is equivalent to racism is delusional. It is also the erasure of sexual orientations. It's pretending that human nature isn't real.

The double-standard here is interesting. Trans social movements claim that gender and sex are separate issues yet I am not allowed to say that I value trans men as people even though I am not attracted to their vaginas without being called transphobic. To me that is cognitively dissonant and a tell-tale sign that there is something wrong with the politics and psychology driving this.

SJB, I understand your sentiment about how in an ideal world you could be with anyone. I think that is very ideological, and the kinds of people who tend to talk that way are somehow bypassing animal realities. Sexuality is very hard wired and also very personal/individual. A pansexual person who can be with anyone is not more enlightened than someone who has very narrow sexual criteria. They are just different species in the same ecosystem and they are both valid.

 

[Phobos]

@S.J.B.
I don't think any of the things you said make you [insert category her]phobic.
Everyone is entitled to their preferences, you have yours and you can't change them.

Nobody is their ideal version of themselves in this world, and there is no reason that your ideal self would fuck anyone that asks.
We as animals have feelings of sexual attraction that are triggered by specific things and there is no way around it.

No one has a right to be found sexually attractive by everyone else and I think anyone that thinks that must have some mental health issues.

Be aware that "[insert category her]phobic" words are used as pejoratives and not as neutral words to just describe your preferences, so you shouldn't be called Xphobic unless you're actively restricting/trying to restrict someone else's freedoms.

 

[Mjäll]

It's a clear case of equivocation, or worse - confusion.

Transphobia as a social issue is not the "transphobia" of having a sexual preference.

Most people prefer someone even of their own ethnicity, going from pure statistics. That doesn't make most people mean and problematic. We can distinguish this pattern of human preference from bad behavior or we can choose ignorance and pain.

 

[mtu mwendawazimu]

Part of enjoying sex is knowing that your partner is someone you're compatible with. In all regards.

Awesome, we had a great conversation about the weather, and you offered me a glass of wine. You have a penis? Not into that. Sorry.

Am I an asshole?

 

[andyturbo]

Agreed completely.

 

[arrall]

Whomever decides to partake in this thread, please avoid name-calling and passive-aggressive nonsense.

Agreed. We will cautiously keep this thread open as long as it remains civil.

 

[mal3volent]

I am very much gay but I could see myself being with a trans guy if the situation was right.

It would obviously be an adjustment. But imagining the absolute perfect person for me...Handsome, great personality, similar interests, passes as a man in every sense other than their genitals. Would I let that be the dealbreaker? I don't think so, but maybe I'm giving myself too much credit. I guess it would be hard to say without actually going through it.

 

[Phobos]

I am very much gay but I could see myself being with a trans guy if the situation was right.

It would obviously be an adjustment. But imagining the absolute perfect person for me...Handsome, great personality, similar interests, passes as a man in every sense other than their genitals. Would I let that be the dealbreaker? I don't think so, but maybe I'm giving myself too much credit. I guess it would be hard to say without actually going through it.

I am an heterosexual man, and yeah I can kinda relate to what you say with the necessary adjustments.
I have never been disgusted by the idea or sight of various sexual orientations, so if I were to find a gay man or a trans woman attractive, I don't think that would stop me, but yeah not happened yet so can't say for sure.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Personally I've always had a question that I haven't had answered. I asked this question once on Reddit but never received an answer for whatever reason. I'm reluctant to ask it because it's rather personal and way outside my experience area.

It's sort of the reverse of this thread:

What are the sexual preferences of trans people? What are the dating strategies of a trans person?

Does a MTF trans woman go for cis men? Does a FTM trans man go for cis women? Or is it more open ended and ultimately about who is willing to give unconditional love?

I expect this to be a very sensitive question that may be difficult or uncomfortable to answer, and I mean no offense.

There was recently a story on Reddit about a FTM + MTF trans couple that ended up having a baby, and the father carried it to term. I thought that was rather cool/interesting.

 

[Robi]

Personally I've always had a question that I haven't had answered. I asked this question once on Reddit but never received an answer for whatever reason. I'm reluctant to ask it because it's rather personal and way outside my experience area.

It's sort of the reverse of this thread:

What are the sexual preferences of trans people? What are the dating strategies of a trans person?

Does a MTF trans woman go for cis men? Does a FTM trans man go for cis women?

I expect this to be a very sensitive question that may be difficult or uncomfortable to answer, and I mean no offense.

Trans folk are,bi,hetero and homosexual

 

[Foreigner]

I am very much gay but I could see myself being with a trans guy if the situation was right.

It would obviously be an adjustment. But imagining the absolute perfect person for me...Handsome, great personality, similar interests, passes as a man in every sense other than their genitals. Would I let that be the dealbreaker? I don't think so, but maybe I'm giving myself too much credit. I guess it would be hard to say without actually going through it.

I appreciate this. I'm demisexual so I have different requirements before I will sleep with a man. Which means no random sex. But the majority of the gay world does not operate that way. People have random sex all the time and it's just fine for them. I can't expect everyone to cater to my demisexual needs when I want to sleep with them. Therefore it is my responsibility to find somebody who is willing to go through the motions of getting to know me a little bit before we can take our clothes off. But I would not turn around and say that someone who has no interest in doing that is demiphobic. A lot of guys are okay with random hookups so they're not going to put in the effort for me when they don't have to.

I know myself very well and I know that I will never be into vaginas under any circumstances. I realize that statement makes it seem like I am just looking at a single body part in space like an object. What I mean is, it doesn't matter how much I appreciate a person or feel an emotional connection to them, if they have a vagina I will not have sex with them. Period. I appreciate that other men might feel differently.

I cannot be situationally bisexual or whatever you want to call it when a gay cis man is open to having sex with vaginas. I think Kinsey, despite the controversy of his research, really did establish that sexual orientation is a spectrum. Some people are closer to 100% gay, and I think I fall in that a category.

You would think that because I'm demisexual that I should be able to fall in love with anybody and then develop a sexual attraction for them based on that love. But unfortunately it doesn't work that way. I describe myself as a particular lock that needs a particular kind of key. If a guy is shaped like that key then he can open the lock and I will gladly have sex with him. But part of the shape of that key is that he has a penis and looks like a traditional male. It's the same reason why I can't be with transsexual women. The key shape is not just about sex but also his personality, his ability to relate, and other qualities.

You'd also think that, as a top, I would be okay with sticking it in any kind of hole, but I really have no interest in penetrating someone who doesn't have a dick. Don't ask me why, it's just how I am.

I can't override my carnal drive for cis men. Sure, maybe one day I will theoretically be proven wrong about that, but I highly doubt it.

Calling me transphobic for something that I really have no control over is disrespectful to my sexual orientation and frankly is erasure.

 

[arrall]

Does a MTF trans woman go for cis men? Does a FTM trans man go for cis women? Or is it more open ended and ultimately about who is willing to give unconditional love?

I have heard from many that most trans people prefer to hook up with and/or date cis people due to the risk of one/both parties experiencing jealousy and/or dysphoria. There is the whole “Do I want them, or do I want to be them?” dilemma that many LGBTQ people face.

I’m a cisgender heterosexual so take this with a grain of salt, but that is just what I have heard from transgender friends and a couple videos by the MtF lesbian YouTuber ‘ContraPoints’.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

I wanted to respond to this but the mods have not reopened the other thread. It was a dumpster fire anyway and I'd start a new civil conversation because I think it's important. Whomever decides to partake in this thread, please avoid name-calling and passive-aggressive nonsense.

I don't agree that not wanting to sleep with a trans person makes one transphobic, if the reason they're not sleeping with them is because of genital configuration. Transphobia implies prejudice and hateful discrimination. I'm personally a gay male and I won't sleep with a man who doesn't have a penis. Some other gay males may feel differently. For example, I know gay men who would accept a blowjob from a woman under certain circumstances because "a mouth is a mouth," but I wouldn't. It doesn't mean I hate women. I want everyone to be happy and end up with someone who is into them.

Claiming that because I won't sleep with trans men that I am transphobic is like saying I'm misogynist (or "heterophobic") because I won't consider sleeping with cis women. If I am not attracted to vaginas then why would I have sex with somebody who has one? There is no -phobia involved. It is literally about where my carnal attraction does or doesn't happen. There is no ideology driving it.

I also don't agree that this is exactly the same as refusing to be with someone based on their race. If you are not physically attracted to someone then you're not physically attracted to someone, but if you specifically have ruled out an entire ethnicity then that is racist because people come in all kinds of configurations within an ethnicity. Trans men on the other hand all have vaginas (or fake penises) and if my requirement is a natural penis then that naturally means I will not be able to be with trans men -- anymore than I would be able to be with cis women. It is physically impossible for me to be turned on by a vagina.

Claiming this incompatibility is equivalent to racism is delusional. It is also the erasure of sexual orientations. It's pretending that human nature isn't real.

The double-standard here is interesting. Trans social movements claim that gender and sex are separate issues yet I am not allowed to say that I value trans men as people even though I am not attracted to their vaginas without being called transphobic. To me that is cognitively dissonant and a tell-tale sign that there is something wrong with the politics and psychology driving this.

SJB, I understand your sentiment about how in an ideal world you could be with anyone. I think that is very ideological, and the kinds of people who tend to talk that way are somehow bypassing animal realities. Sexuality is very hard wired and also very personal/individual. A pansexual person who can be with anyone is not more enlightened than someone who has very narrow sexual criteria. They are just different species in the same ecosystem and they are both valid.

I think you're totally correct, except calling a phalloplasty a 'fake' penis is insulting, and also somewhat incorrect.

Yes it's artificially/surgically constructed, but it's still living tissue. 'Fake' implies fakery, a mere pretense, and this is not what that is. Phalloplasties are a surgery originally invented for men who have lost their penis due to traumatic injury or penile cancer. There's also the very rare condition of aphallia, ie a congenital absence of the penis, for which the procedure is also used. For the end result it makes no difference whether someone lost their genitals, was born without them, or was born with the wrong ones. They look and function the same.

Now for the accusation of being 'transphobic' if you don't fancy fucking a vagina, that's just stupid. (annoyingly everybody shouts phobic this and phobic that about everything these days, when did people get so thin-skinned)
Sexual attraction is about bodies, and this includes genitals. If I'm same-sex attracted I want a partner with same-sex genitals, period. There's nothing 'transphobic' about requiring a certain set of plumbing. There's no prejudice involved, that's your orientation . The only way I'd say prejudice was involved is if you were to refuse to date a hot-looking guy you'd been pursuing all night the second you found out he had a phalloplasty. And even then I'd give a caveat, which would be it's still just personal preference if you would ALSO not want to go with any other man who has had genital reconstruction. IF however in that scenario you'd go with one but not the other, then I'd say yeah that's prejudice, because between two guys with identical bodies one would get rejected for no other reason than that he is transsexual.

PS for the record, while I much prefer standard dicks, I'd totally do a guy with a good phalloplasty, trans or not, if he looked like Laith Ashley (check him out, he's a fashion model)

 

[Foreigner]

I think you're totally correct, except calling a phalloplasty a 'fake' penis is insulting, and also somewhat incorrect.

I'm tired of the hair-splitting over words that is currently the social trend. It's exhausting and I'm not going to cater to it much more.

You know EXACTLY what I meant when I called it a fake penis... which is that they weren't born with it. Just like I can spot breast implants on a woman when I'm at a nude beach, or fake lips full of collagen, or fake anything. Our brains are wired to spot imitations or unnatural features. Or are you going to claim that a 50 year old who has had loads of plastic surgery looks like a natural, young beauty? Nobody would ever say that. It's very obvious when somebody has had work. I personally would not be with a guy who's getting botox or other plastic surgery because I find it vain, but that's another topic. I'm trained in medical so that makes me extra observant of fine details. I have very specific tastes in men and I can't deviate from them despite years of trying. It's just not as exciting, desirous or hot to me.

I've seen plenty of videos of phalloplasty and the outcome, and I've seen a couple in person at men's massage workshops. They don't register in my brain as real penises. As soon as I look at one, before my brain even has a thought about it, something inside me feels, "Something doesn't make sense there." Then I have to think about it and then I realize what I'm looking at. They are approximations that help these individuals match their desired sex as much as possible in an attempt to ease their gender dysphoria; just like how people who have been in accidents or have deformities get reconstruction, and most of the time people can tell there is something unnatural about them but we would never make a big deal about it. Some phalloplasties have pumps attached to them so that they can get hard. I applaud anyone whose mental health is so messed up that they need to go through these transformations to feel close to normal... it can't be easy. That doesn't mean I am going to have sex with them or try to edit my own carnal attractions for them. Straight people have tried to oppress my homosexuality my entire life... it doesn't work. I won't now be dictated to again about who I "should" be into.

Yes it's artificially/surgically constructed, but it's still living tissue. 'Fake' implies fakery, a mere pretense, and this is not what that is. Phalloplasties are a surgery originally invented for men who have lost their penis due to traumatic injury or penile cancer. There's also the very rare condition of aphallia, ie a congenital absence of the penis, for which the procedure is also used. For the end result it makes no difference whether someone lost their genitals, was born without them, or was born with the wrong ones. They look and function the same.

My carnal body does not register them as the same. I can socially pretend they are the same so that the person doesn't feel alienated, but I will be privately thinking that they're not identical. You really need to google phalloplasty and look at some pictures before you make such pronouncements.

Now for the accusation of being 'transphobic' if you don't fancy fucking a vagina, that's just stupid. (annoyingly everybody shouts phobic this and phobic that about everything these days, when did people get so thin-skinned)
Sexual attraction is about bodies, and this includes genitals. If I'm same-sex attracted I want a partner with same-sex genitals, period. There's nothing 'transphobic' about requiring a certain set of plumbing. There's no prejudice involved, that's your orientation . The only way I'd say prejudice was involved is if you were to refuse to date a hot-looking guy you'd been pursuing all night the second you found out he had a phalloplasty. And even then I'd give a caveat, which would be it's still just personal preference if you would ALSO not want to go with any other man who has had genital reconstruction. IF however in that scenario you'd go with one but not the other, then I'd say yeah that's prejudice, because between two guys with identical bodies one would get rejected for no other reason than that he is transsexual.

I'm not going to have a deep, repetitive conversation with you about how phalloplasties are identical looking/feeling to real dicks because they're not. I do not carnally register them as the same. I've seen phalloplastic dicks at the nude beach (which I go to all the time in the summer) and you can spot them a while away.

I also won't cater to a theoretical scenario like comparing two otherwise identical guys because that never happens. If I was with a guy all night and things got hot and heavy, and then he pulled down his pants and he had a phalloplasty, I would lose my hard on immediately. But 9 times out of 10 that could never be a remote possibility because trans men have tell-tale female features that make me not attracted to them in the first place. The trans men I know, who I have had close contact with, smell like women despite being on T and going to the gym, etc. Some part of me is still registering "female" and I can't help it.

Pretending that a phalloplasty is identical to a natal penis is something I will only do in order to validate the feelings of a trans person who wants to match their psychological gender. They deserve that courtesy. I will not pretend they're the same when it comes to who I choose to have sex with. My sexual orientation does not function that way and nobody is entitled to make me feel guilty about that.

PS for the record, while I much prefer standard dicks, I'd totally do a guy with a good phalloplasty, trans or not, if he looked like Laith Ashley (check him out, he's a fashion model)

I don't know who that is nor do I care.

And good for you, I respect your orientation. For me it's a big nope.

 

[Foreigner]

the message that the op quoted
saying that not wanting to sleep with a trans person is transphobic
not wanting to sleep with a fat person is fat phobic
and so on
is extreme

people are attracted to people for so many reasons and become unattracted to people for so many reasons and I would venture a guess that the majority of the time it has nothing to do with any phobia at all the people just don’t ring your bell

Ive dated some people who technically checked all the boxes of what my “ideal partner“ was but the spark just wasn’t there and then there have been people who were far from my conventional dream partner but over time I have developed a real attraction to them by spending time with them

some of the hottest people get uglier the more you get to know them and vice versa

but if someone is not into you it’s not that they are phobic of you it’s that there not into you

I can’t imagine being like your short girl phobic if some guy wasn’t into me I’d think he’s not into me I’m not pretty enough or my personality bothers him or any number of things are just not clicking
attraction is mysterious
sometimes everything is lined up perfectly that makes it look like you should be a perfect match and totally into the person but there is just no chemistry

are we going to call everyone who isn’t it to each group phobic? Thats crazy to me


people don’t owe anyone attraction
they owe each other respect but not attraction

The left wing movements are into shaming people for having orientations and preferences that don't cater to their oppressed minorities, and I am sick of it. They coin it "call outs" which is just a nice way of moving the goalposts. They are shaming and guilt-tripping people for not being attracted to them. They're becoming oppressors. Everything is a "phobia" now and if you don't agree the thought police come after you. Nobody is entitled to anybody else's time, energy and resources. And I resent my orientation being erased and replaced with the label "bigot" because I won't engage in a certain type of sex. How twisted, delusional and dare I say perverted. By that logic we should all be accepting of pedophiles, since that too is a hardwired, ingrained sexual orientation. You can change the meaning of words to mean virtually anything now.

The subtext is that being pansexual is more enlightened, but nature doesn't care about ideology. We're attracted to who we're attracted to and that's that.

I never thought in a million years I would be having to defend myself from leftism. I spent years explaining how this all works to bigots who wanted to deny same-sex marriage. Now I am having to defend my very right to be into cis men to people who are twisting the word "bigot" because they are offended that their entitled bullshit doesn't work on me.

 

[Robi]

Hope you feel better now unloading and expressing your feelings Foreigner.Care or not, I feel for you.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Why? Do you want to imagine hot lesbo action?

I think it's a stereotype that straight guys like lesbo shit

personally it does nothing for me

 

[Conky]

I think it's a stereotype that straight guys like lesbo shit

personally it does nothing for me

Cause most lesbian shit is just straight actresses earning some extra cash

No surprise there since most porn is fake crap for people not on amphetamines

 

[Jerry Atrick]

I think it's a stereotype that straight guys like lesbo shit

personally it does nothing for me

I guess I fit the stereotype then because I like it.

IMO guys are ugly, smelly, and hairy (I'm talking back hair, chest hair, ear hair, etc) while girls are beautiful, smell good, and not as hairy.

What could be hotter than two beautiful creatures going at it?

 

[Fire&Water]

Pffffffft
"phobic" ...Im not scared of any of it
its just another neo liberal included term to try to make you feel guilty for having your own perspective