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Heroin Starting methadone on monday and need advice!

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You said it right here.



You really gonna tell me that when you said "the only real treatment is abstinence.. Period", that a reasonable person wouldn't interpret that to mean "abstinence is the only way"?

You're giving your opinion, I am too the difference is I'm actually saying it's my opinion.

I was a heroin addict a long time too, hell I probably still am. You can give your opinion, but I'm gonna give mine too.

If you just wanna emphasize that methadone is very hard to get off and that you should think very carefully about your long term goals and what you think you're ready for in deciding to get on it, I'd be all on board.

But that's not what you said, you said methadone isn't a real treatment and that abstinence is the only real treatment.

Annnd I don't agree and am gonna say as much cause I think what you're arguing puts people at risk. At least in the way you said it.
Ok I’ll cut this down right to the punch line ,
If a person with no knowledge about drug withdrawal asks a question and there are basically 3 choices
A. Remain on heroin to avoid sickness
B. Take another drug to avoid sickness and be addicted to that instead
( withdrawal from these drugs can last for months )
C. Avoid opiates all together ( which is hard but doable) and start feeling better in 4-5 days.

It’s a pretty easy choice when you’ve been down each of these roads and know what worked for yourself
 

JessFR

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Ok I’ll cut this down right to the punch line ,
If a person with no knowledge about drug withdrawal asks a question and there are basically 3 choices
A. Remain on heroin to avoid sickness
B. Take another drug to avoid sickness and be addicted to that instead
( withdrawal from these drugs can last for months )
C. Avoid opiates all together ( which is hard but doable) and start feeling better in 4-5 days.

It’s a pretty easy choice when you’ve been down each of these roads and know what worked for yourself

I think it's overly simplistic.

Methadone no less than saved my life. Maybe not literally, who know, but in the sense that it gave me a life then that I've had since and don't think I'd have had otherwise.

I wasn't ready to quit, I wasn't ready to be sick, I wasn't ready deal with post acute withdrawal syndrome potentially lingering for fuck knows how long.

I just wasn't prepared to do it in spite of how horrible my life had gotten. It's hard to know how much worse it woulda had to get before maybe I would be.

And since I wasn't ready, MY options were stay on heroin, stay homeless, stay begging and prostituting till I'm dead, in jail, or MAYBE, eventually, finally be ready to stop even if it meant being sick. Methadone gave me another option. Maybe I'll regret it one day, but I highly doubt it. I made the choice I made for the reasons I did when I did, and for all I'd know I'd be dead or in jail now if I hadn't. I've certainly known others who've ended up that way.

Once again though, my experience isn't everyone's, I have no doubt that for some people, abstinence is the best option at the time they're making that decision. But that's the whole point, it varies.

And although this is now repeating myself, I'm gonna say it again. You can look at the data, look at how likely the average person is to die in x years without substitution therapy vs with it. Or with it vs abstinence only. How likely they are to be in prison, to get serious life long diseases or other conditions. And it shows very clearly how effective substitution therapy is on average.

That doesn't mean it's right for everyone every time, we are individuals, not statistical idealizations. But it's why I am so strongly opposed to what you're saying.
Everyone isn't you. Which is why if we wanna help we should provide options, perhaps with opinions but without judgey pressuring comments like "anything else isn't a treatment", based both on experience and actual data.

The choice isn't ours to make. Everyone's gotta make it for themselves. We can give data, we can give opinions based on experience as we're likely both doing. But saying "this way is the only real way" is where it goes too far. And regardless of if that's genuinely how you meant it. If I took it that way I'm sure there are others who would too.

Unless you have any new points to make, I suspect I've said everything I have to say about this.
 
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doves7171

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I agree with Jess. I consider myself a very strong willed person but I’ve never summoned the inner strength to get off opiates completely. I’m a longer term Subs and 12 month stint on methadone since 2014. The vast majority of users have underlying issues which could me mental or physical. I know that if I jump off opioid treatment my physical pain across the sacrum tail bone will return, which for me means muscle spasms from a fall at age 18 equals no sleep. I’m also aware that subs and methadone are probably the best antidepressant medications out there, sure only a bandaid padding the damage we have caused to our brains. I’ll say it one more time, I am a strong person but people stay on for many reasons that don’t have much to do with inner strength.
 

drewbocop

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Well, also subuxone isn't as strong as methadone. Some people's tolerance seems to be too high to get good effect from subuxone. Especially given subuxone has a ceiling.

I went on methadone for that reason.

I think some people are put on subuxone inappropriately. They still crave opioids constantly even on it. Even if it's sufficient to suppress most opioid symptoms most of the day.

It's just not ideal for everyone.
I'm in the group that would recommend methadone over suboxone. I had a nightmare of a time getting off suboxone to the point I switched over to methadone from it after starting using again. I tapered successfully from 120mg down to 0 and rode a motorcycle across the country not long after my taper. I stayed clean for quite some time before ending up using kratom daily. (Still do)

Suboxone on the other hand was an absolute nightmare for me. On it, it was incredibly stimulating which was kind of nice, but I would sweat through every shirt I put on around the clock. Always sweating. Then the withdrawal when I foolishly tried to jump from around 1mg/day was hellish. No sleep for a LONG time, no eat, anxiety up the ass, and crippling depression. I am really not a fan of bupe and I would completely agree that many people are either put on ludicrously high doses for moderate habits or tiny doses for big habits. I've seen it a million times. When I went to a small easy-going clinic back in 2008 one guy was on 32mg/day and he was doing less oxy than I was.

Edit: And methadone is a real treatment. It worked great for me. If you really, truly, definitely want to get clean once and for all, it's a good choice. A full agonist, easy to taper, long half life. If you do it right, it's as good a choice as any. But that's the variable that's most important. You. Sure, abstinence is great and all, but you don't have to suffer to get there. We've all suffered, we've all been through cold turkeys, it doesn't matter. In the end, if you want it you'll get it and if you don't, you won't. I'm almost 34 years old and I still don't truly want it. I let go of all the bad shit, sure, but I still use something.
 
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doves7171

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How do you get hold of Kratom in Australia? Is it black market or?? I’ve never used it.
 

JessFR

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How do you get hold of Kratom in Australia? Is it black market or?? I’ve never used it.

It's illegal here. I'm sure some people find ways to get it. But I've never used it and I've never seen it.

Guess it's just not worth it to break the law to get something like kratom.
 

birdup.snaildown

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I don't like methadone. I very much regret taking it. I should have just quit H. Methadone made it more difficult for me. I've also known a shitload of people who've been "stuck" on methadone for decades. In my opinion, they are not stuck. I quit methadone. The withdrawals were a bit worse than H. Nobody told me that when I started taking it. It's not impossible to quit, but it's much harder when the government just keeps giving you cheap opiates.

Your mileage may vary.
 

JessFR

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I don't like methadone. I very much regret taking it. I should have just quit H. Methadone made it more difficult for me. I've also known a shitload of people who've been "stuck" on methadone for decades. In my opinion, they are not stuck. I quit methadone. The withdrawals were a bit worse than H. Nobody told me that when I started taking it. It's not impossible to quit, but it's much harder when the government just keeps giving you cheap opiates.

Your mileage may vary.

That's the main problem. Nobody ever told me either. I mean I knew it already, but they didn't know I already know that, they still should have explained that at the intake interview.

Cause you can't make a fully informed decision if you don't know that.
 
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That's the main problem. Nobody ever told me either. I mean I knew it already, but they didn't know I already know that, they still should have explained that at the intake interview.

Cause you can't make a fully informed decision if you don't know that.
They won’t remain in business very long if they told you the crippling side effects , it’s not there job to inform folks of the consequences only on getting you on the program, when making the decision to get on meth long term your basically volunteering to be a state controlled junkie.
 

JessFR

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They won’t remain in business very long if they told you the crippling side effects , it’s not there job to inform folks of the consequences only on getting you on the program, when making the decision to get on meth long term your basically volunteering to be a state controlled junkie.

What side effects?

Here's how it boils down. Can you promise me I'd still be alive if I'd.been on heroin the last 4 years? No you can't.

Can you promise me I wouldn't be in jail. No.

Can you promise me I wouldn't have been beaten or robbed or raped prostituting myself like before I got on methadone? Fuck no.

But I can promise you the likely hood of one of those things being where I'd be now if substitution therapy wasn't around is very high.

And I ask you, what exactly has it cost me? I can't say I've really have any significant side effects other than maybe sometimes some mild sedation

What else has it cost me? I actually don't pay a cent for it, I pay a quite low dosing fee to my local pharmacy. Maybe at most a third of the amount I used to spent on heroin a day... Only per MONTH.

Oh no, a greedy pharmaceutical company is getting a fraction of my money instead of greedy organized crime getting several times more!

So. What exactly is it that has been the harm to me? You gonna argue some hypothetical where maybe one day I might wanna get off it, I might.

And what's the absolute worst case scenarios then? A really shitty withdrawal, but honestly still probably less time in withdrawal as if I'd been using that whole time. I used to wake up sick every morning, and be sick by night, often being sick the whole night if I didn't have enough money. Not to mention other longer withdrawals.

By the time I get off it if I have trouble I'll likely still have spent less time sick.

I was probably sick at LEAST 3 hours a day on heroin, this last 4 years that would have been what? 180 days worth of withdrawal? So 6 months.

What else?

Exactly what has been the downside for me from getting on methadone? Cause where I sit, as the one on methadone. I haven't regretted it even a single moment since I got on it.

So what should I have done? You gonna say I should have just quit then? Cause I wasn't gonna. I was homeless begging for money every day, I'd screwed up every relationship in my life other than than my fellow heroin addict boyfriend. I'd gotten myself arrested and commited a bunch of crimes, not even to mention the hell that is sex work (especially when sick)

I wasn't prepared to stop entirely even then, exactly how much worse did it have to get, or how much longer just even that bad, before it's worth taking an imperfect alternative in methadone and having had something approaching a functional life the last 4 years.

You tell me. What's your solution for the situation I was in when I got on it? Either you have one, in which case I'd love to hear it. Or you don't, in which case you're endorsing that sometimes methadone is the best choice (or similar non abstinence options).
 
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birdup.snaildown

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@JessFR

What it cost me was prolonging my opiate use. I got to a point where I wanted to quit. They offered it to be as a way to quit. Methadone works if you're going to stay on H anyway. It's a better alternative, but it doesn't help you quit.

People arguing for the legalization of heroin: this is a similar thing. You don't have to score on the streets. It's cheap/free depending on where you are in the world... but that makes it easier to stay on it.
 

Delljack

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You’ll be OK buddy I’m on my third year I was really bad had to go was of the youngest people at the methadone clinic My dose was as high as 350 mg now I’m all the way down to 130 Just try not to use much in the beginning and go up as fast as possibleThe more you use in the beginning the longer it’s gonna take you for you to feel good
 

JessFR

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@JessFR

What it cost me was prolonging my opiate use. I got to a point where I wanted to quit. They offered it to be as a way to quit. Methadone works if you're going to stay on H anyway. It's a better alternative, but it doesn't help you quit.

People arguing for the legalization of heroin: this is a similar thing. You don't have to score on the streets. It's cheap/free depending on where you are in the world... but that makes it easier to stay on it.

And that's all fine. But just because some people end up regretting it doesn't mean it's not a treatment, or even that it's not one of the best treatments. It means different people are different. Which has been my point all along.

I do have a question though, had you known that it'd be harder to get off methadone, would you still have gotten in it at the time? Or only with the benefit of hindsight?

I'm not arguing that methadone is right for everyone. I'm arguing that it's right for some people in some situations.
 

birdup.snaildown

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Heroin was invented to treat opium addiction.
Methadone was invented to treat heroin addiction.
I don't believe either of them are treatments.

I do have a question though, had you known that it'd be harder to get off methadone, would you still have gotten in it at the time?

No, I wouldn't.
It was sold to me as a way out.
 

JessFR

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Heroin was invented to treat opium addiction.
Methadone was invented to treat heroin addiction.
I don't believe either of them are treatments.



No, I wouldn't.
It was sold to me as a way out.

Right. Then as I said earlier, what was very wrong with what happened with you is you weren't given all the information you needed. And that's not uncommon.

That doesn't make it not a treatment. Putting the data aside and I really do think it speaks for itself, I'll ask you the same question, what do you think I should have done if methadone isn't a treatment?

I think the problem is people think treatment means cure. It doesn't. A treatment just means improvement in the severity of the disease. And methadone does that for many people. I challenge anyone to say I'd be better off not having gotten on it reading my above post.

Abstinence isn't a cure either. People relapse in abstinence all the time.

This perception that the only "cure" is simply not using is totally arbitrary. It's no more effective at saving lives and improving health. On average its less effective.

But there's a cultural pressure that the goal is to stop using drugs. That CAN be a goal, but it's crazy when you have a treatment that has shown itself to be very effective, and you have people who aren't prepared for that goal, to not use it out of some arbitrary perception that the only worthwhile effort is to try and stop using forever.

EDIT: also, as I recall heroin was created as a painkiller and cough suppressant that was stupidly advertised as a non addictive alternative to morphine. It wasn't meant as a substitution therapy like we would consider today.

Although to say heroin was invented at all is dubious. Other than the rather modern field of drug design, drugs generally aren't invented. They're discovered. And then they see if their are uses for the discovered drug. It's not like "inventing" a new car.
 
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birdup.snaildown

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I know what the word treatment means. Methadone is a legal opiate that the government provides people who are addicted to illegal opiates. It's not a treatment just because it's legal. It's a drug. Like I said, heroin was created as a treatment for opium addiction.

Heroin addiction is not a disease. Neither is alcoholism. I've had people try to convince me otherwise during periods of abuse.

What should you have done?
I don't know.

If your argument is that some people can't kick opiates, you could be right. Perhaps some people are destined to be lifelong opiate addicts. I don't believe this, but it might be true. We don't know.

If methadone is a treatment, it is a shitty treatment.

People use for a reason. At AA, they try to convince everyone that has ever attended a meeting that they have a disease. It's a weird cult where everyone desperately tries to convince others (and therefore themselves) that they cannot drink. What they are really trying to do is avoid fixing the core of their addiction.

You could argue that the core is unfixable for some, but I tend to think (most of the time, at least) that is just an excuse because people are afraid of change and they want to keep using opiates. Methadone isn't a treatment for people who want to quit. You don't take opiates - "treatment" or otherwise - every day for years and years unless you want to keep taking that drug... for whatever reason.

What's the alternative?

Go to rehab. Get clean. Get therapy.
 

JessFR

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Rofl. Christ.

No. Here's what I shoulda done. What I did do.

I was NOT gonna go through withdrawal, in rehab detox or otherwise. And "I don't know what you should have done" isn't a good enough answer.

Believe what you want. Frankly all I see is arrogance, presuming your way is the only right way with zero regard as to the the people who might be harmed by such narrow minded opinions even when the evidence of what treatments work and how well is easily found.

If your way works for you, good for you. But don't go telling other people which treatment option to take, or pressuring them. Give them options, give them opinions. Don't tell them "it's this way or it's not really a treatment"...

Christ. I can't believe you just want "iunno, rehab?" I just told you I wasn't gonna do that. So what you're saying is I shoulda stayed in harms way, and considered myself at fault for that, rather than being stable for the last 4 years.

You're probably right that methadone isn't an ideal treatment who really wanna just be off opioids. But that's not all you're saying. You're passing implied judgement on those of us who weren't prepared to take that option and have benefited enormously by having an alternative.

It's just judgey bs. Not much different than what happened to you. Only in your case they convinced you methadone was the only option. Now you're doing the same to others for abstinence.

Even when you admit you have no alternative option I would have been willing to take. And basically just ignore all the benefits I've gotten from it. As of being clean matters more than being alive.
 
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Keif' Richards

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That’s fine if your not completely ready to stop but my point was that methadone has long claws and withdrawal is brutal compared to heroin which after 3-4 days is maxed out and slowly improves over the next 2 weeks , methadone doesn’t start easing up for a few weeks to a month and lingers on for months .

The only real treatment for heroin addiction is abstinence, if you take any other drug so you don’t go thru withdrawal your simply substitute one drug for another,Period…

Pinprick, I regrettably didn't actually notice this comment until just now. There are other comments as well that we should talk about here. First off, I'm your friend and we all do our very best to treat each other with compassion, respect and understanding. Please do not be offended if we try to redirect you a little bit. We do all of this for the community, not our egoes.

In the forums and life in general, making absolute statements is a quick way to alienate people, especially if they are questions that cannot in reality be answered. If you are claiming to know the answer to a question that is unanswerable in a specific, scientifically evident way, then you are only going to be seen as pompous and people will lose respect for you and thus, not attach value to other contributions. I do not want that for you, so please just hear me out.

It was a simple phrase, but when you refer to Methadone Maintenance as a trap, let's face it, you're implying a lot of powerful stuff. A trap, specifically implies that a person didn't know what they were doing, didn't understand and so were caught by the proverbial trap. It makes the personi in question seem like a confused animal who is incapable of making the decisions needed to stay alive. It also pretty much casts Methadone maintenance as not a legitimate treatment, but of something decidedly malevolent. In the same breath, you refute the idea that maintenance is actually a treatment in favor of labelling it as a scam or a lie.

There are people out there, including folks I talked to just yesterday here, who pursue Methadone with the honest intent of changing their lives. Yes, some people enter into Methadone programs and believe them to be "the cure" and by not working on themselves and their real problems, they just develop another addiction on top of Methadone. They no longer spend their dope money on dope, so now they can spent it on booze or crack. However, when you enter into the maintenance program with true intent to get better, it can be an absolute miracle. Everyone makes such a huge deal about "being chained to the clinic", when they're already chained to their drug dependency. It just doesn't make sense. If you want to get off, you can taper at such a slow rate that the withdrawal is nearly unnoticeable. If you fuck up, use Benzodiazepines or whatever, yea it sucks to have to withdraw from Methadone, but if you're doing the right things in your life, not only should you not be afraid, but you will eventually get a prescription allowing for once-weekly and eventually, once-monthly take-homes. Again, if you're ready to change, it can be a miracle.

So please just be careful as with that comment, you probably caused a lot of people to feel badly about themselves for no reason. For me, addiction is not even about the drugs, it's about how you act and how you affect others. I do not subscribe to the "a drug is a drug" shit. I've been in the 12-steps for a while and they saved my life. They make the "drug is a drug" comment despite the fact that they are consuming Caffeine, Nicotine and potential other psychoactive prescription drugs. Last time I checked, Fluoxetine (Prozac) is a drug. Diphenhydramine (Benadryl) is a drug. So where is the line in the sand? I still smoke weed, I take Gabapentin and at one point was on Methadone. I measured my success not by the drugs, but by how my life was improving. As they say in the program, my life was unmanageable. I could not handle even the most basic shit. Now that I'm not drinking or getting high, my life has improved tremendously. It no longer feels unmanageable. My family and I have a good relationship. They haven't seen me messed up for years. I try to make amends to people I've hurt. It's working.

The Only Treatment for Heroin Addiction is Abstinence...

I'm gonna be frank. You're mistaken on an objective level. This is simply misinformation and you're really getting behind it as if you're totally sure, but, I'm telling you that this is wrong. The philosophy that you're preaching is antiquated and not truly based in reality. There are many treatments out there for Opioid addiction, including many that are relatively new. Both Methadone and Buprenorphine maintenance are among the most promising. The thing is, they are not cures. They are only tools that can help you truly recover, but you must also work on yourself. My opinion on Methadone was that is allowed me the time to work on myself. I had much more free time and room in my mind to think. By working on myself throughout the process, I mangaged to get clean and taper off.

To get really brutal, I have to note that spreading this type of philosophy is actually a lot more harmful to the community than I think you realize. The abstinence-only path has really become a "wouldn't it be nice" type of thing, that sounds great on paper, but in reality is a statistical fluke when it actually happens. You know how many people in my life have said "just stop; pull yourself up by your bootstraps; if you want it, you can do it." It's entirely too easy to make judgements like this, I admit, but that doesn't make it right.

Among other things, the abstinence-only philosophy often entails short bursts of sobriety followed by relapse in a cyclical nature. In between relapses, the mind is frequently inundated with powerful cravings that cause extreme anxiety, depression and feeling of worthlessness. The point here is, that even during these periods of sobriety, nobody is actually "getting better". It's just a crash diet in which the weight is lost only to come back shortly thereafter, as the diet is not feasibly sustainable. This cycle of relapse and sobriety opens addicts up to a greatly increased possibility of overdosing, as their tolerance is going all over the place and street drugs are often of dubious potency.

In addition to all of that, there are people in the forums and in real life, myself included, who are proud of the progress that they have made using Methadone and "other drugs" to fix our lives. I'm far from perfect and have used and drank since quitting IV Heroin, but they were all mostly one-offs. Still, looking through the lens of brutal honesty, my life is infinitely better than when my only friend was Heroin. My family thinks so, friends think so and that's what matters to me, not what drugs I'm on. It's about how I am and how I affect those I care about. You are basically telling these people that what they thought was progress was indeed, not actually real and that they are either not smart or vigilant enough to notice.

Please just think about these things before you post dude. When we don't know the answer to something, we do not present it as fact. If you don't believe in something, you don't have a right to tell others that they are wrong. You can only share your opinion. I want you to be a helpful member of the community, but this is just not a good thing.

You can be an addict, be clean, but still use substances. Those can be Nicotine, Caffeine, Cannabis or what have you. What matters is your intentions and how you affect other people and the world around you. If a junkie who used to prostitute herself for Heroin and Crack every day, gets on Methadone, still smokes weed but is able to raise a family, go to college and feel love for herself and her life, is that not what is most important?

Don't anyone feel discouraged. If you all are on maintenance, your sobriety is still just as meaningful as your heart knows it is. People will tell you you're wrong, you're deluded, you're lying to yourself. They are the ones who feel the need to tell you what's wrong with your life because they're not happy with theirs. Ignore them. The fact that someone feels the need to tell people that they're failures and not smart enough to realize it, despite having no real evidence to support it... I just don't understand the intentions.

Be proud people. We're in this together.
 

JessFR

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Thank you.

This whole reasoning is so destructive. Soooo many people die as a result of endless attempts at abstinence because they think that has to be the goal.

That if they're not ready for that (and might never be) they should just keep taking the added risks of using over methadone or subuxone. And worse still, saying that that's then essentially their fault for not being ready to quit entirely.

It's not just your opinion, it has real life consequences.
 

paraLfreqnC

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For me when it comes down to it, whatever saves your life is worth it. But, for me i tried the Suboxone and many other things. Never went to Methadone because my girlfriend did it and warned me about it and I heard many horror stories. I finally got to a point to now where I only take Kratom. It has probably saved my life. Granted its also addictive but I have been taking it for years and still dont need more than 5-9 grams a day. Seriously look into it. Good luck.
 
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