suspected serotonin syndrome from methoxetamine use

[romiir]

So because I say that there are impure batches with unknown amounts of unkown chemicals, drugs became illegal? Also why all the shouting with caps and all the !!! ? Does that make you look professional in any way or what?
Did I say somewhere that it was NOT a SS?

Your posting tone didn't seem to follow the standard of harm reduction and seems to cast doubt at the serious issues at hand which this thread is trying to educate the community of before someone else dies because of this stuff.

"which appear as a clean white powder"
- Do you really think clean white powder means it is pure? I don't think so.

Clean (all similar crystals) under the microscope with a very narrow melting point, yes I do.

I would run GC/MS or LC/MS but right now I am more concerned/distracted with testing the current slurry of 6-APB crap that isn't what vendors say it is...

"DEADLY CASE OF SEROTONIN SYNDROME UP TO 72 HOURS AFTER LAST USE."
"Take a rather high dose of MXE, a SINGLE DOSE"
From your logic you want me to kill myself? Why?

No, I believe a single dose is safe if you would actually read the thread rather then running your foolishness all over it...

I don't suggest anyone attempt a heroic dose, but rather a high and sensible dose for this SIMPLE & SENSIBLE EXPERIMENT. [A single low dose isn't likely to cause the effects that cumulative/repetitive/and or large/binge doses are causing. (from none to mild to severe Serotonin Syndrome) Also, see what I did there? SS Experiment, lol..]

All avaliable data suggests that the key to safety with MXE is MODERATION. Bi-weekly dosing is probably OK if you keep it under 50 mg (maybe even 100 mg). Point is, reckless use of MXE is probably going to eventually kill more people if they don't get the important and unquestionably valuable information contained in this thread in time.

And No i've never done MXE because I see how people binge it. They binge it because it's good maybe but I'm fine with my situation and don't need too much chemical fun.

OK? What relevance does this have to this thread???

"The experience is probably very dose dependent."
Why probably? It is always dose dependent. Even the same dosage can create different subjective effects so on different dosages it should be clear that the effect differs.

Read the thread again... I am speaking about the cannabinoid + MXE experience and the mixed reviews it has had in the MXE megathread, doh.

I hope your friend gets better. Good luck and take care.

He survived it last time, the symptoms are responding fine to the peractin. (cyproheptadine)

He has other serotonin antagonists available as well, but not so well suited to fighting SS. (peractin is one of the most effective anti-serotonergic drugs and has saved many lives from SS, it has no dopamine action AFAIK, only serotonin antagonist and H1 antagonist affinity... It's mainly anti-serotonergic with some anti-histamine activity as well.)

@eLeSaH Sorry if you took my post as a personal attack, it was not meant as such. However I am just tired of people contradicting this information which may save lives. People need to stop telling us that "Red apples aren't Red"... Please, please, please, re-read the entire thread before replying again.

Thanks,
-romiir

 

[mllx]

Has anyone experienced SS from taking MXE+SSRI?

 

[bluedolphin]

I've been wondering about folk being inclined to use mxe on the downside of a night on stimulants & I'd advise against it. It does not appear to have the same effects profile as Ket & thus probably has a different side-effect & interaction profile.

For the sake of enlightenment I took a very small dose of Butylone whilst on mxe about 3 weeks ago. The Bute turned up earlier than expected & even though I'd already had a 10mg line of mxe I decided to carefully test the new Bute. The combination seemed unusually stimulating, even though I took the Butylone in small dabs (totalling 20mgs) over about an hour. Some hours later in the evening, in bed (I'd say about 5 hours later) I suffered a racing heartbeat & felt overly stimulated. I also had a headache. I was not panicked or in a frantic state before or during this spell, so it wasnt anxiety related.

So in my limited test experience, I would say that mxe does not combine well with stimulants, especially of the cathinone class & I recomend major caution using mxe in the same way as Ket is used after a night out.

THIS.

MXE mixes dangerously with bk-MDMA (Methlyone) and 4-MMC. Resulting in high heart rate, sweating, and all kinds of feelings of being "one drug over the line".

MXE does not even mix pleasantly with Ketamine. Resulting in amnesia, high heart rate, and becoming a psychological mess.

MXE does seem to mix better with more normal or milder stimulants like caffeine... with 2-FMA in low doses it was fine... with Pentylone used in low doses it was somewhat worrisome so I'd keep those separated as well.

MXE does mix well with alcohol and small amounts of cannabis... so I'd leave it at that.

 

[romiir]

Has anyone experienced SS from taking MXE+SSRI?

I could say UTFSE, but since I'm trying to help everyone here anyways...

This is from one of the MXE megathreads:

My hands are sweaty with excitement at the thought of trying this.

My only query is whether there is any possibility of serotonin syndrome/blunted empathy for people who (like me) are on SSRIs?

20mg citalopram daily - a lot of people seem to mention the feel-goodness of the compound so I'm assuming serotonin is playing around somewhere. Couldn't turn up any info on this.
Anybody?

I'm on 100mg sertraline (an SSRI) and I haven't had any negative experiences while using this drug. With methoxetamine being a ketamine analogue, i'd say it's unlikely to have any interactions with SSRIs. However remember this is an RC with practically no human testing. As with with all RCs, if you do decide to dabble, do an allergy test dose first, then start experimenting with small doses.


TJF

Last edited by TJF; 12-01-2011 at 10:43.

^It's also somewhat related to DXM which is contraindicated with SSRI's.

Source:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...Tell-Us-More?p=9210090&viewfull=1#post9210090

----

Also I'd like to note that I retract my previous statement (going to edit it after I post this post) that MXE tapering is effective/safe. While it does seem somewhat effective, once the runaway condition starts, it really just doesn't control it fast enough like Peractin (cyproheptadine) does, and ultimately it is just adding onto the negative effects in the long run. (though it does seem that if one was very careful they could taper down with MXE, but my friend is unwilling to risk their life further to do so and is going to continue treatment with Peractin as needed which is able to stall the SS symptoms off immediately and much longer then a small dose of MXE which ultimately metabolizes to/causes something making it worse if too much is taken, and you will die of SS if not enough is taken....)

 

[romiir]

MXE mixes dangerously with bk-MDMA (Methlyone) and 4-MMC. Resulting in high heart rate, sweating, and all kinds of feelings of being "one drug over the line".
MXE does not even mix pleasantly with Ketamine. Resulting in amnesia, high heart rate, and becoming a psychological mess.
MXE does seem to mix better with more normal or milder stimulants like caffeine... with 2-FMA in low doses it was fine... with Pentylone used in low doses it was somewhat worrisome so I'd keep those separated as well.
MXE does mix well with alcohol and small amounts of cannabis... so I'd leave it at that.

It also seems OK to mix with 2C-X compounds in my friends and others reported experiences (I recall reading about 2C-I as well at least), they did not lead on these symptoms, though in this case 2C-P is really a low dose of PEA as far as stimulants go, others may not play so nicely..

If your going to combine, do it at once, or take MXE on the tail end of the trip so you are clear of the stimulating factor by MXE T+6. There are even some positive reports of Methylone and MXE even (and these reports usually have timings following what I am outlining here), but I suspect something like MDMA + MXE could easily = DEATH. I would strongly recommend against even testing mono-amine releasers (INCLUDING METHYLONE, DON'T MIX THIS! YOU MAY NOT GET LUCKY!) with MXE on rats. It's simply not worth it. I would also avoid all monoamine releasing drugs within a couple weeks of MXE use just to ensure you don't end up with SS.

The other important thing to note is that this SS inducing action doesn't seem to occur until after you have already came down off the MXE, usually at T+6 or more since the MXE itself is able to block the SS causing factor until it is metabolized. So if you have something that is short acting or not very stimulating it should be OK IMO, but anything that releases mono-amines should be avoided.

 

[mllx]

Thank you romiir!

At the moment I haven't read any bad trip with MXE+SSRI, but better to stay safe.
We know that DXM messes with serotonin, but almost nothing about MXE...

 

[RaoulDuke45]

Sounds like your run of the mill hypertensive episode

 

[Solipsis]

Good point, also people who doubt these reactions are serotonin-mediated are not trivializing the seriousness of such episodes from my perspective. I don't see why DA and NE cannot explain this. I know there was a death with MDAI but the dose and ROA make it hard to make claims based on that, but since MDAI is so serotonergic I do wonder how it mixes with MXE if anyone knows. Better or worse than dopaminergic stimulants?
DA and NE also do match with the hypertensive crisis, from what I know serotonin storm also does raise BP and HR a lot and is known for hyperthermia - eyes rolling back, probably seizures etc but I'm not sure all of the above are necessarily present with DA/NE imbalances.

I disagree with bluedolphin that MXE would mix well with alcohol. It has given me extreme dizziness, vertigo and nausea like with ketamine.

 

[romiir]

Sounds like your run of the mill hypertensive episode

Read thread please. Also check google for peractin/cyproheptadine. Benzos aren't as effective as peractin and seem damn near ineffective without it. (They just keep anxiety of SS at bay) I will post more info about my friend soon when I can get to a computer (using cellular atm)

Good point, also people who doubt these reactions are serotonin-mediated are not trivializing the seriousness of such episodes from my perspective. I don't see why DA and NE cannot explain this. I know there was a death with MDAI but the dose and ROA make it hard to make claims based on that, but since MDAI is so serotonergic I do wonder how it mixes with MXE if anyone knows. Better or worse than dopaminergic stimulants?

Cyproheptadine is not a treatment for Amphetamine overdose. It only works on 5HT and H1, go google it ffs!

As a mod in a harm reduction forum, it is extremely irresponsible of you to even suggest MDAI+MXE without a WARNING NOT TO DO THIS IN SAID POST.

PLEASE DO NOT COMBINE MDAI WITH MXE OR YOU MAY NOT LIVE TO REGRET IT. FFS, HOW MANY PEOPLE NEED TO DIE BEFORE YOU WILL LISTEN TO US?!?!

Just cause the MXE induced SS has delayed onset and some once a month users had fun and didn't DIE from the experience doesn't mean anyone should repeat a combination that has already been proven deadly. No wonder the world is banning these things... FACEPALM

Current Ketamine research shows that the "rapid anti-depressant effect" seems to last about two weeks, in addition it seems to occur with a sub-anesthetic dose.. Fighting SS for two weeks where you have a horrible reaction to any food containing tryptophan doesn't sound like it is worth the M-hole more than once a month.

Whatever it is MXE is causing does have a delayed effect, the SS starts 6-72 hours after exposure to a high enough cumulative dose most likely because MXE is blocking the SS similarly like Ketamine blocks para-chloroamphetamine induced SS... See my other posts in this thread for the references. Please read the whole thread...

FLUSH YOUR MXE IF YOU CAN'T STAY UNDER 100 MG A MONTH AND VALUE YOUR LIFE.

MY FRIEND HAS NOW BEEN IN THE ER 4 TIMES FOR THIS, 2 in 4 DOCTORS HAVE THE SAME OPINION AS YOU FOLKS, BUT I CHALLANGE ANYONE TO PROVE THAT Cyproheptadine helps with DA/NE overstimulation. It is the antidone for this SS and an antihistamine, that is all... Can't think of the name atm but there is a similary shaped but sulfinated H1 like cyproheptadine that works on all monoamines, but cyproheptadine is 5HT (serotonin) exclusive...

Will post more details of my friends recent experience soon when not using smartphone.

 

[zirbeldude]

@romiir: I dont know why you allways bring up ketamines antidepressant effects when you talk about serotonin syndrome.
Because ketamines antidepressant effects seem to have nothing to do with serotonin.
Look that up on google ;-)
Or take a look at this very interesting thread:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...l-Antidepressant-Effects-of-Ketamine-Revealed

 

[romiir]

@romiir: I dont know why you allways bring up ketamines antidepressant effects when you talk about serotonin syndrome.
Because ketamines antidepressant effects seem to have nothing to do with serotonin.
Look that up on google ;-)
Or take a look at this very interesting thread:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...l-Antidepressant-Effects-of-Ketamine-Revealed

You have an excellent point; however, I do not see where they say it doesn't effect serotonin levels. (From memory: It was my understanding that in the most recent research they thought Ketamine "modulated serotonin or something" via AMPA receptors.. OTOH) All modern anti-depressant drugs target the serotonin system do they not? My friends MXE induced "hypertensive crisis" is easily, quickly, and effectively aborted by Peractin (Cyproheptadine), while benzos alone seem rather ineffective. Clonidine also seems effective for controlling the prolonged heartrate and blood pressure increase following the "crisis" portion of the MXE abuse induced SS. Which seems to fade away very slowly over about a week or so... (can eat normal food (protein) again without frightening symptoms by midday on day 6 (previously protein caused SS and required cyproheptadine); by day 8 protein response seemed near baseline, but bp and hr were still elevated slightly over baseline for the next few days)

I find it strange that in this case clonidine and cyproheptadine are both effective at returning symptoms to baseline. (though clonidine can go further than that with dose escalation)

Furthermore, can anyone tell me why my friends symptoms would respond to Cyproheptadine like this?

There's the anecdotal data, draw your own conclusions.

EDIT 2: Doesn't the previously mentioned/described "sleepy euphoria" from other posters sound more like 5HT (MDAI) than DA/NE (Amphetamine)? I wish they would also respond.. My friend said it sure the hell didn't feel like a "fight or flight" type response.

 

[intensecycle]

I experienced something like discussed in this thread during this experience.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...)-Gray-swamp-of-limbo-and-no-trace-of-reality
In short: day after next, elevated body temp, vertigo and bad body load, feeling sick and poisoned. Just my two cents. I'd say, stay away from large-dosage MXE.

 

[romiir]

I experienced something like discussed in this thread during this experience.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...)-Gray-swamp-of-limbo-and-no-trace-of-reality
In short: day after next, elevated body temp, vertigo and bad body load, feeling sick and poisoned. Just my two cents. I'd say, stay away from large-dosage MXE.

I throughly enjoyed reading your report; Thank You for the contribution. It seems to align with the facts presented here.. High dose MXE is indeed a recipe for disaster. Lessons learned the hard way..

My friend loves MXE, but it is a love hate relationship... Someone (from interview with a cycloblahblah chemist) needs to go back to the drawing board on this molecule. But, if treated with the proper respect, this is yet another valuable and powerful tool. I hope one day humanity will understand it completely. But until then it's like a modern day Medusa for the Ketamine lovers out there. Be careful folks.

 

[sn23]

Someone needs to go back to the drawing board on this molecule.

Yes that won't make any user more responsible. Please don't blame the knife nor the smith if you cut yourself (be it in accident or ignorance).

 

[romiir]

My comments above reflect my view that arylcyclohexylamine's have great promise in personal exploration for some and the medical community as a whole as we slowly unravel their secrets. MXE is just one of the derivatives that is a perfect example of a drug with severe unintended negative side effects which happen to also have a delayed onset (worst kind right?). My friend would have never touched it (in excess at least) if this knowledge was avaliable.

Please don't blame the knife nor the smith if you cut yourself (be it in accident or ignorance).

True, but in this case the knife is to blame, yet as usual the smith had the best of intentions. IIRC in the news this knife even cut the smith, lol. (Though I guess that was accident & ignorance..) OTOH Ketamine is rather safe even when abused, but MXE is not so friendly it would seem. I've not heard of Ketamine induced SS or NMS type symptoms, *only* (lol) bladder and kidney issues.. Not moderate to severe death. MXE is serious shit, and it must be respected, or someone will pay the price. I personally rank this RC wrecklessness up there with things like paramethoxyamphetamine in "ecstasy" tablets IMHO. When anything "recreational" carries with it a serious risk of death, (I hope) one seriously re-evaluates their activities planning. My friend and I both don't have any interest in living on "bonus days", and we hope this thread finds others in similar belief BEFORE anything unfortunate and or tragic happens.

 

[romilar ranger]

One time this guy took a boatload of DXM. He did it a huge number of times. He found that his thinking had become somewhat deranged. He read some scientific papers discussing how some NMDA antagonists cause a condition known as "Olney's Lesions," and concluded that, since some NMDA antagonist cause Olney's lesions and he had done a lot of a well known chemical which had no studies performed on it specifically looking for Olney's lesions, that his brain fogginess was PROBABLY due to Olney's Lesions- which were PROBABLY an irreversible, unavoidable side effect of heavy DXM usage.

He wrote an otherwise excellent FAQ about DXM, which superbly illustrates the concepts of harm reduction (e.g.- helping people avoid blowing out their livers on unquestionably toxic substances such as acetaminophen- amongst others...).

Olney's Lesions continue, despite further investigation which (at this date) appears to contradict the claim, to be associated in the minds of many as a verified hazard of DXM use.

MXE usage provides a very small sample set from which to infer absolute risk. The % of people who come online and discuss their MXE usage is an even smaller segment of that sample set. People provide data on known experiences in order to help grow a body of evidence (mostly anecdotal, some scientific) to give a fair sampling of what might reasonably happen when a given chemical happens to be ingested. As human metabolism differs slightly between individuals, there is always the chance of having a completely novel reaction to ANY substance, no matter how "safe."

There are no absolutes.

"At this time, a few users of MXE have reported effects which resemble panic attacks, dopamine toxicity or serotonin syndrome- of which the latter two CAN be life threatening. Familiarize yourself with the symptoms, and if you or anyone you know are experiencing symptoms of Serotonin Syndrome please seek medical attention."

That's all we can say. You can attack anyone who posts something that sounds like they are questioning you, but that's all we can say. To state "MXE DEFINITELY CAUSES SEROTONIN SYNDROME" is just as irresponsible as saying "MXE is always positive, euphoric and unquestionably safe..."

(ffs...............)

 

[romiir]

That's all we can say. You can attack anyone who posts something that sounds like they are questioning you, but that's all we can say. To state "MXE DEFINITELY CAUSES SEROTONIN SYNDROME" is just as irresponsible as saying "MXE is always positive, euphoric and unquestionably safe..."

(ffs...............)

Try being the person who doctors don't believe to need life saving medication and go through a hellish nightmare ordeal over this chemical like my friend did. (with what at the time was thought to be responsible use, by someone experienced with K) I would hope people could find something better and safer to abuse, like alcohol. I'm personally anti-prohibition, but comments like yours make me feel that we should make these things illegal everywhere.

I've listed the facts of the incident numerous times, if you aren't familiar with cyproheptadine, then you shouldn't be flaming my comments. MXE abuse or an impurity therein definitely causes life threatening symptoms matching serotonin syndrome in some individuals, which happen to respond well to cyproheptadine. It is also most interesting that they didn't respond to benzos.

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying MXE is safe. It seems the general consensus is that MXE does not have the forgiving qualities of Ketamine. I'd compare Ketamine to MXE as I'd compare MDMA to PMA. Sure the latter compound may offer some lucky abusers a great ride; but the unlucky ones may end up dead. Why would anyone take a substance if the safety profile is in question? Are RC vendors going to start shipping cyanide analogs soon so we can all try the latest awesome stuff? As long as you get the dosage right, it is awesome!!!! Get it wrong and...


Why aren't there more comments like this???:

It's frightening to hear all of these experiences though. I was thinking of trying a balls-to-the-wall dose of MXE to try to hit a hole, but now I think I'll just stick to what I'm used to.

Yeah, I think I'm going to pass on this idea also..

This is supposed to be a harm reduction forum.. 8(

 

[romiir]

@instabilify

did you have ANY alcohol before taking MXE?

I'm not instabilify, but if you read their first post... They say that they hadn't taken any other medication.

I thought SS was only a risk when MXE is combined with other substances. I'm not taking any meds. Whatever this was, it was easily the worst physical reaction to a drug I've experienced.

Has anyone else had a similar reaction to methoxetamine? I'm kind of scared to touch serotonergic drugs now - is this a valid concern? I'll be giving MXE a wide berth in future for sure, this scared the hell out of me for a while as I've heard SS can be fatal, assuming that's what it was.

I can also add that my friends experience was also from MXE alone.

 

[romiir]

High doses of MXE seem not to mix well with humans IMO. My friends experiments have shown that the 50-100mg mark (biweekly) starts to cause serious problems, and they can be of delayed onset, and anything further then 100mg can easily hospitalize the unprepared, and sometimes the prepared as my friend learned the hard way.

It seems cannabinoids, alcohol, MDxx, or anything really, that stresses the cardiovascular system, just adds to the after effects of MXE, which are already rather bad at sensible dosages. Oddly though, my friend reports after long abstinence, some compounds mix fine during the experience, which seems to be because the nasty effects don't take hold until after the "trip". (we think its some metabolite of MXE or an impurity causing the SS type stuff) A couple of friends of my friend and my friend as well had wonderful experiences with MXE + 2C-P, and a few other things on different occasions but after seeing what he went through, I couldn't recommend any combinations what-so-ever in good conscience. Gambling is only fun if you can afford to lose.

Apparently in a microgram bulletin they found that the major MXE synthesis impurities are easily removed with an anhydrous acetone wash. I advised my friend of this, but he hasn't had the time to see if washing the product makes any difference in the outcome as far as negative effects from a reasonable dose. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some RC vendors are shipping tainted product that causes these reactions, but there currently is no data available on the subject.

 

[e1evene1even]

I wasn't sure to bump this ages old thread or start a new one, but for a long time I've been trying to understand this extremely distinct bad reaction involving methoxetamine (MXE) I've had on about a dozen or so occasions since I started using it in 2010.

I've probably used MXE close to 1000 times in various dosages so I'm very familiar with it's range of effects, but very rarely I've had this exact same terrifying reaction. The feeling comes on quite fast, often with no warning, but almost always after redosing multiple times, and having consumed other substances which affect serotonin prior (amphetamine, mephedrone, AMT etc.) seems to significantly increase the likelihood of this occurring.

Serotonin syndrome/toxicity was never something I suspected due to the misinformation that MXE doesn't affect serotonin (it does: Mion and Villevieille 2013, Hondebrink 2017 etc.), but the symptoms are a very close match.

When this delirium, confusion and panic comes on there's a very small window of time where I can react clearly and I've always taken benzos, ibuprofen, run my head under cold water or taken a cold shower and basically hoped for the best. As it turns out, this is fairly close to the the standard treatment for serotonin syndrome.

Having survived it so many times is some reassurance, but it's still always terrifying. 8(

The worst time was when I was briefly supplementing with lithium orotate, had taken amphetamine, then later in the night dosed MXE multiple times which lead to hospitalization (lithium and amphetamine are both listed as possible contributors to SS which supports the hypothesis). I was released after 6 hours in intensive care (cardiac monitoring etc.) To be honest I was in far too of a confused state to remember many specifics, but there was definitely a real concern for my vitals. (Thank god for universal health-care)

I'm sharing this partly as a cautionary harm-reduction tale, and also for those who've had this experience with MXE and will know exactly what I'm talking about.
MXE shouldn't be treated like ketamine when it comes to redosing, combinations, or a night-cap after a night of partying with other substances

I know serotonin syndrome is an often over used boogey-man for a lot adverse drug reactions where it's not applicable, and I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

The next time it happens I plan to test to serotonin syndrome hypothesis by taking Cyproheptadine which is the primary antiserotonergic drug used to treat SS.
To be safe I'll start with 4mg vs. the standard 8-12mg for treating moderate/severe SS and probably call 811 to speak with a nurse, but it should help settle this issue once and for all.

Luckily Cyproheptadine is OTC in Canada, and the cost is well worth it even if only to disprove the hypothesis.

I'll be sure to update with more information as I have it.