Tryptamines The Big & Dandy 4-HO-MiPT Thread - 2nd MiPteration

[Kaleida]

I found 4-HO-MiPT to have similar but distinct -and far less universal- auditory effects at 30mg oral. While DiPT alters the pitch universally, 4-HO-MiPT had a far milder effect and did not seem to alter the pitch of human voices. It did significantly alter things like music and phone notification/ringing tones, but when I called my friend near the peak of the trip his voice sounded relatively normal.

That's funny, as voices were one of the main things that stood out to me on 4-HO-MiPT when I got this effect, although that was on 50 mg. The moment I instantly realized it was going on was when I walked out of my bedroom where I had been peaking in silence and my roommate was watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and I immediately heard Buffy say something that came out lower pitch than normal and started laughing my ass off.

The fact that you mention phone sounds though is what really tells me you know what you're talking about. It's funny how memorable the little things like that are just because they are so unlike anything else, even other types of auditory distortions more typical to psychedelics.

 

[arrall]

The fact that you mention phone sounds though is what really tells me you know what you're talking about. It's funny how memorable the little things like that are just because they are so unlike anything else, even other types of auditory distortions more typical to psychedelics.

It took months to be able to hear the ringing tone (when I called someone) the same after that trip. I remembered it specifically because I called up a friend (who offered to be my standby tripsitter) to talk to me and help get me out of a thought loop during the peak, and also called my gf at the time a couple times during the trip.

 

[Daturas]

I'm still convinced we are living in the matrix, and it's been 29 years..

Tryptamines make impossibilities possible.. and it's amazing.

 

[Neuroborean]

I'm still convinced we are living in the matrix, and it's been 29 years..

Tryptamines make impossibilities possible.. and it's amazing.

Can you please develop those ideas?

 

[Kaleida]

@Neuroborean If you ever go far enough out your brain will explain it to you itself. Try not to get too lost in what the entities say because you'll never be able to prove or disprove it. But basically we're in a simulation and part of an experiment and being punished and playing a game and the punchline in a cosmic joke and also it's all just in your head all at once. And also you're the messiah but also the antichrist and being used by everyone in the entire world but also just some regular asshole who can't get his shit together also all at once. You'll get used to it.

 

[Neuroborean]

and also it's all just in your head all at once.

basically because of our "human filters".
but in anycase, the last part, well, I would like to be in you head to be completely sure of what do you mean, but I kinda agree. Dualism is part of the cosmic joke, too many people want to surpass that while living the human life, I think that's cheating.

Entities are not beings I like, I don't think they are well-intentioned, much likely the opposite, at least some of them. Those fabergé eggs are creepy as fuck.

Gotta sleep,
encantado

 

[Kaleida]

basically because of our "human filters".
but in anycase, the last part, well, I would like to be in you head to be completely sure of what do you mean, ...

Pretty much reality is what you make of it but you are already made of what reality is so make of that what you will.

... but I kinda agree. Dualism is part of the cosmic joke, too many people want to surpass that while living the human life, I think that's cheating.

It's certainly not very easy to do so in my experience.

Entities are not beings I like, I don't think they are well-intentioned, much likely the opposite, at least some of them. Those fabergé eggs are creepy as fuck.

I wouldn't recommend simply taking them at their word but I think it's important to remember the long-recognized trickster archetype as well. Sometimes a weirdly good way to arrive at the truth is to get fed up with entertaining a lie.

Gotta sleep,
encantado

Hope you get some good rest.

 

[Neuroborean]

I see. Yeah, idk I have a hard time believing you can be overwhelmed by 4-ho-mipt. I mean, you know high I've taken it but still, I know for sure I wouldn't be able to handle high doses of dpt, dmt, 5-meo-amt, etc. So if you've handled those chems well, which I know I wouldn't be able to just based on their effects profile, miprocin just isn't that...inherently intense?

But yeah, I'll wait for someone else to chime in who could give you a better answer. All I can say, in my biased opinion, is that this a really fun and nice chem to trip on.

Uhmmm...
well, I need to warn you that you shouldn't "understimate" 4-ho-mipt cause it can be very very powerful and it can do things that you may not expect at all, at least it has happent that way to me.
Is not like I had so many trips on it but every one of them was different and had a different vibe, and sometimes even a different body high (which can change your temper a lot).
I'll tell you a couple of things that happened to me.

The last one that scared me was the first time I took a psychedelic after having my first (and only) breakthrough with DMT. Maybe that had some influence as the dmt trip, while not a bad trip, did have a huge impact on me and I had some very strange and not very positive experiences afterwards. The ho-mipt trip was 4 months later. (In a proper thread I'll tell what happent to me after the dmt bt cause it's pretty complex and strange)

What happened was that in a moment of the trip something began to change in my mind, both the body high and the DMT headspace were installed, in a very strange and surprising way, at that moment I began to see a kind of black and red dome, with figures that reminded hexagons but more complex and mobile and they began to vibrate around me, so that it seemed that they wanted to surround me and put me inside the dome.
At that moment I remembered an instant of the dmt breakthrough, but pay attention to this...! it was not exactly a "memory" but it was something like an ominous feeling, of abduction to a part of the dmt trip that I did not remember until then.
You will tell me that if I didn't remember it as I know it was from then, well, they are things that one feels clearly. I don't think it was deja vu because the complexity was such and the visuals and sensations so equal to dmt that it had to be a memory of it, because I've never had a ho-mipt trip with that kind of visual.

In other words, it is as if the 4-ho-mipt had made me communicate with the space of the dmt for an instant and that space wanted me to access there, something of the breakthrough that I had forgotten. However, the feeling was ominous, dark and overwhelming, I had to make a very quick decision, put on very specific music and began to perform a kind of dance, to the sound of the music to break that feeling and the appearance of that kind of dimensional abduction . Fortunately it worked and I had a great trip.

On another occasion I was on a similar dose (+40mg) and I began to look at myself in the mirror, it came out mechanically, perhaps due to a childish impulse, to put on a "monster" face, well, shortly after doing that, not only did I change my face in the mirror (normal) but I noticed an unpleasant sensation, like having something coming out of me, on both sides and I saw black-blue wings, not pretty, coming out of me, and the worst thing was not the visual aspect in the mirror, but that I felt exactly what was seen in the mirror, that some kind of "spirit" was literally replacing or "eating" me. I had to run out of there, sit down at the piano and start playing, after a while, the feeling disappeared and a fractal visual appeared in conjunction with the music I played.

With this I do not mean that 4-ho-mipt is a dangerous substance or nightmarish (for example I do not want to try DPT and for DMT I have so much respect currently so I have not vaporized it again), what I mean is that it has a real entheogenic potential, and you can "take surprises"that may not always be positive. In any case I've never had a "bad trip" with ho-mipt but I've never really had a total "bad trip" with any substance, just nightmarish or overwhelming moments.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Uhmmm...
well, I need to warn you that you shouldn't "understimate" 4-ho-mipt cause it can be very very powerful and it can do things that you may not expect at all, at least it has happent that way to me.
Is not like I had so many trips on it but every one of them was different and had a different vibe, and sometimes even a different body high (which can change your temper a lot).
I'll tell you a couple of things that happened to me.

The last one that scared me was the first time I took a psychedelic after having my first (and only) breakthrough with DMT. Maybe that had some influence as the dmt trip, while not a bad trip, did have a huge impact on me and I had some very strange and not very positive experiences afterwards. The ho-mipt trip was 4 months later. (In a proper thread I'll tell what happent to me after the dmt bt cause it's pretty complex and strange)

What happened was that in a moment of the trip something began to change in my mind, both the body high and the DMT headspace were installed, in a very strange and surprising way, at that moment I began to see a kind of black and red dome, with figures that reminded hexagons but more complex and mobile and they began to vibrate around me, so that it seemed that they wanted to surround me and put me inside the dome.
At that moment I remembered an instant of the dmt breakthrough, but pay attention to this...! it was not exactly a "memory" but it was something like an ominous feeling, of abduction to a part of the dmt trip that I did not remember until then.
You will tell me that if I didn't remember it as I know it was from then, well, they are things that one feels clearly. I don't think it was deja vu because the complexity was such and the visuals and sensations so equal to dmt that it had to be a memory of it, because I've never had a ho-mipt trip with that kind of visual.

In other words, it is as if the 4-ho-mipt had made me communicate with the space of the dmt for an instant and that space wanted me to access there, something of the breakthrough that I had forgotten. However, the feeling was ominous, dark and overwhelming, I had to make a very quick decision, put on very specific music and began to perform a kind of dance, to the sound of the music to break that feeling and the appearance of that kind of dimensional abduction . Fortunately it worked and I had a great trip.

On another occasion I was on a similar dose (+40mg) and I began to look at myself in the mirror, it came out mechanically, perhaps due to a childish impulse, to put on a "monster" face, well, shortly after doing that, not only did I change my face in the mirror (normal) but I noticed an unpleasant sensation, like having something coming out of me, on both sides and I saw black-blue wings, not pretty, coming out of me, and the worst thing was not the visual aspect in the mirror, but that I felt exactly what was seen in the mirror, that some kind of "spirit" was literally replacing or "eating" me. I had to run out of there, sit down at the piano and start playing, after a while, the feeling disappeared and a fractal visual appeared in conjunction with the music he played.

With this I do not mean that 4-ho-mipt is a dangerous substance or nightmarish (for example I do not want to try DPT and DMT currently gives me so much respect that I have not vaporized it again), what I mean is that it has a real entheogenic potential, and you can "take surprises"that may not always be positive. In any case I've never had a "bad trip" with ho-mipt but I've never really had a total "bad trip" with any substance, just nightmarish or overwhelming moments.

I've taken many many high doses of psychedelics and 4-ho-mipt is one of my absolute favorites... I've also studied and practiced with many extremely divergent occult groups over the decades and I've purposefully attempted contact with many entities that most would consider pure evil.
I've also had quite a few "bad trips" prior to exploring The Left Hand Path in the occult world. Navigating through these bad trips in my youth helped me to understand that all these things you experience in a trip is arguably simply yourself viewing aspects of yourself that you've repressed or did not know were within you to begin with.
Many , many , many people people speak of goal of attaining true balance but do not understand what "true balance" actually requires which is "being able to stand with one foot in the light and the other in the darkness".
This is the time to realky reflect on what you experienced on such a profound trip and try to understand what was trying to be conveyed to you .
Psychedelics tend to cause areas of your brain or at least conciousness to communicate with each other thst otherwise cannot by shutting down barriers within the mind.
I feel it's important at least for myself to view seemingly external entities as very likely aspects of yourself and be ever vigilant in your inner skeptic.
The human mind is very capable of experiencing sensations that feel.very much like real reality under specific conditions.
Even physics do not actually describe the real world ...but how we're able to perceive and experience the real world.
Also, I'm very curious what dose of 4-ho-mipt you took???

 

[Neuroborean]

I've taken many many high doses of psychedelics and 4-ho-mipt is one of my absolute favorites... I've also studied and practiced with many extremely divergent occult groups over the decades and I've purposefully attempted contact with many entities that most would consider pure evil.
I've also had quite a few "bad trips" prior to exploring The Left Hand Path in the occult world. Navigating through these bad trips in my youth helped me to understand that all these things you experience in a trip is arguably simply yourself viewing aspects of yourself that you've repressed or did not know were within you to begin with.
Many , many , many people people speak of goal of attaining true balance but do not understand what "true balance" actually requires which is "being able to stand with one foot in the light and the other in the darkness".
This is the time to realky reflect on what you experienced on such a profound trip and try to understand what was trying to be conveyed to you .
Psychedelics tend to cause areas of your brain or at least conciousness to communicate with each other thst otherwise cannot by shutting down barriers within the mind.
I feel it's important at least for myself to view seemingly external entities as very likely aspects of yourself and be ever vigilant in your inner skeptic.
The human mind is very capable of experiencing sensations that feel.very much like real reality under specific conditions.
Even physics do not actually describe the real world ...but how we're able to perceive and experience the real world.
Also, I'm very curious what dose of 4-ho-mipt you took???

When I dose high I dose around 40 or more, sometimes close to 60, 50-55mg.
I'm sure that it has some "individual reflections" aspects (or dimensions) of this fact, I mean, pretty sure. My inner skeptic doesn't lead me to a definite conclusion of what the heck that is, I mean, I think by myself that those events could be "just my mind" but my inner skeptic also tells me, "and it could be also something else". I think just for the fact that we were born in a materialistic world then we tend to think more about ego-ego-ego stuff, even if that ego has different screens and higher selfs and all that, but in anycase, I don't close my conclusion on that. Working on that could be interesting and possibly fruitful but it can also be risky in a way I wouldn't like. I mean, at the end of the day you ask yourself in every act "who I would like to be?" what I want of myself?
How you understand that "balance"? because I guess you should have a proper definition if you have a proper guide for reaching it.
What was eventually the point of trying to contact those entities?
((Gotta sleep, so late here))

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

I'm actually pretty impressed thst dosing around 50mg caused such a profound experience but everyone is quite different when it comes to dosing drugs.
I believe there were pressed green tablets of these made by famous Dutch lab that were 20mg each and I'd usually take 3 which was a deep trip but I've never experienced a breakthrough experience on a substituted tryptamine. Only vaping DMT or DPT (which I feel is actually MUCH more spiritual in nature than even DMT) or more so with holing from dissociatives.
My reasoning for purposefully attempting contact with such entities or forces was for several reasons....some were requirements for attaining specific grades in certain occult orders. Some were for training and practicing visualization and pathworking. Some were through simply trying to meditate and randomly seeing and experiencing extremely disturbing and negative images and beings.
Some were an attempt to understand the nature and importance of real world actual evil.
Certainly, this is a dangerous path that not everyone survives or even makes it through with their sanity...which is where the inner skeptic cones into play.
As Mr Crowley once stated :

In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.

Aleister Crowley, Magick in Theory and Practice

For me balance is being able to understand the world from multiple viewpoints and specifically attempting to understand the things in life that seem so inherently un-understandable like why evil exists and why it's so vitally neccessary for everything else to work ans most importantly to never stray to far towards the fringes of any belief system.
Remember we would have no word or understanding of the daylight until we experienced the first nightfall or shadow.
All things that have an opposite are defined by its opposite and depends upon it for mutual survival.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

This just popped onto my YouTube feed and felt it was pertinent to your question @ Neuroborean

"Does questioning reality lead to madness" 15min...

 

[Neuroborean]

I'm actually pretty impressed thst dosing around 50mg caused such a profound experience but everyone is quite different when it comes to dosing drugs.
I believe there were pressed green tablets of these made by famous Dutch lab that were 20mg each and I'd usually take 3 which was a deep trip but I've never experienced a breakthrough experience on a substituted tryptamine. Only vaping DMT or DPT (which I feel is actually MUCH more spiritual in nature than even DMT) or more so with holing from dissociatives.
My reasoning for purposefully attempting contact with such entities or forces was for several reasons....some were requirements for attaining specific grades in certain occult orders. Some were for training and practicing visualization and pathworking. Some were through simply trying to meditate and randomly seeing and experiencing extremely disturbing and negative images and beings.
Some were an attempt to understand the nature and importance of real world actual evil.
Certainly, this is a dangerous path that not everyone survives or even makes it through with their sanity...which is where the inner skeptic cones into play.
As Mr Crowley once stated :

Aleister Crowley, Magick in Theory and Practice

For me balance is being able to understand the world from multiple viewpoints and specifically attempting to understand the things in life that seem so inherently un-understandable like why evil exists and why it's so vitally neccessary for everything else to work ans most importantly to never stray to far towards the fringes of any belief system.
Remember we would have no word or understanding of the daylight until we experienced the first nightfall or shadow.
All things that have an opposite are defined by its opposite and depends upon it for mutual survival.

Couldn't reply till now, been in a move to an island, so it was quite busy..

I normally don't get so strong effects from tryptamines, I'm very sensitive to lysergamides so I normally don't take them (never tried a high dose of lsd, I kinda did with hbwr which I consider much more spiritual and entheogenic). I consider myself a hard-head for tryptamines but perhaps I'm not compared to other people, I don't usually have strong visuals but sometimes something changes in me, I think I'm easily self-suggestable so to speak.
Maybe what I saw was not 100% that, so other person would have interpreted in a different way, not sure, I'm pretty sure about the feelings, so I think that communicates more than the visuals itself, most times.

I understand what you say about the dualistic principles of the world, I mostly consider the world as some kind of theater on which dualistic principles are the 75% of what's going on but is quite likely that, at the end of it, there's some higher principle that eliminates that dualistic "fight". The thing is that I don't agree with indian mystics (advaita vedanta and so on, even with buddhism) that we should AIM for escaping dualism, finding oneness with the non-dualistic force that soak evertything.
I mean, I know that's for sure good for a lot of reasons, but I consider that it's actually some deep ego trick to avoid the real nature of being human, which is so deeply engrained in dualistic principles. Is probably good to remember and experience, from time to time, that you can participate and you are that non-dualistic nature AS WELL AS being part of the dualistic world, but not like.. avoiding fully living our entire nature, which in a way I think those "yogis" want, just for the same (IMO) weak reason: to not suffer.
I don't think the central aim of being human should be to find the way to not suffering anymore. Surely is great to find that but, to focus all your spiritual work for that? come on... maybe is because I don't get it. I would "buy" whatever else.

About your experiences with entities and the occult:
I wasn't sure if taking psychedelics from time to time was or wasn't playing with the occult, right now I have less doubts, I think it has a big part of it and it's something that, actually, I'm not very proud of. It's not that I regret it or consider it to have been in error either, I still see a lot of positive and constructive things, that I feel a kinship with, with psychedelics. What is the problem? Well, the first time I had a breakthrough with dmt I came to a place that I didn't feel "safe", rather it felt like a place where I was NOT invited and where I had absolutely no control, rather I felt that incredible forces were surrounding me and that I was a complete sucker under their control.

the truth is that the experience was incredible (I consumed maybe too much because in a momentary madness I took a spoon and poured in the dab a good amount, possibly more than 60mg when I had already vaporized another 50 before in the first toke)... I left there not believing what had happened, it seemed so beautiful and surprising as impossible. Still I felt at some point that those "beings" wanted something from me and I refused, at one point they gave me a "hyperspace kick" and took me out of hyperspace for a few seconds, giving me a communication: your life sucks and you are doing it very wrong. It honestly seemed like an attack to me, a kind of revenge for not playing their game. Then I came back and the trip was mind-blowing.

The problem was not during the trip, but the following weeks and months where during dreams, usually in periods of stress or a few days after taking some psychedelic or empathogen, I suffered (and still suffer) psychic attacks of entities, sometimes together with sleep paralysis, but not always.
These attacks have been of various types, feeling that a dark, deadly energy is getting into my heart, feeling that I am being electrified (with a very real pain) and getting up shaking and with twitching muscles, feeling that a vortex similar to dmt but dark tries to swallow me, feeling that there are entities freezing me in my sleep and noticing that my astral body moves but not my body....

Anyway, this kind of experiences have convinced me that I should be very careful with psychedelics in high doses and that they have a lot to do with the occult.
While I have always felt an intellectual and somewhat spiritual curiosity towards the occult, today I find it quite worrying, given who are the major players in this field, the elites, and also given that these same elites tend to take their rituals and their "magick" too far in a way that I find completely repulsive. I understand that "from the inside" it is clearer the nature of this evil, but I would say that this evil can play with you or with me, so that you could end up being a pawn of such beings (the entities or the elites).
Probably those elites (some of them very into the O.T.O. afaik) are actually pawns of the dark entities, and not the other way around. Imagine you or me, the amount of real "control" we can have over something like that... (I understand that you will consider that more than not learning about it, but ok).
For things like that I prefer to be away from that world

 

[Mjäll]

Well put about the asian religions! They get a lot right that we have missed out on in the christian world, but their focus on "enlightenment" as a goal rather than a means to an end is a weakness and a characteristic pitfall of that mode of thinking. Westernerns and the world in general should strive for nurturing the eastern acknowledgement of spirituality and existential awe without the apotheosis of abstraction. Buddhism in particular still has a lot to teach since it is an expert discipline in the spiritual realm, much like one can learn a craft from a master without necessarily aspiring to master that same craft. People have different ideas of the highest goal, but can still benefit from each other. One may be in the position to be right about the overall goal, witholding it from someone in plainsight, exploiting his narrow-minded expertise in a sub-discipline he perhaps fatally considers paramount, and ultimately enjoy a beneficial exchange. Here again is the world as a theater, a play, a game. Deception and competition collaborate with peaceful rule-bound conduct to form progress or unfolding.

(I hope i'm not subconsciously quoting Alan Watts or something, fuck my ass)

 

[Neuroborean]

Well put about the asian religions! They get a lot right that we have missed out on in the christian world, but their focus on "enlightenment" as a goal rather than a means to an end is a weakness and a characteristic pitfall of that mode of thinking. Westernerns and the world in general should strive for nurturing the eastern acknowledgement of spirituality and existential awe without the apotheosis of abstraction. Buddhism in particular still has a lot to teach since it is an expert discipline in the spiritual realm, much like one can learn a craft from a master without necessarily aspiring to master that same craft. People have different ideas of the highest goal, but can still benefit from each other. One may be in the position to be right about the overall goal, witholding it from someone in plainsight, exploiting his narrow-minded expertise in a sub-discipline he perhaps fatally considers paramount, and ultimately enjoy a beneficial exchange. Here again is the world as a theater, a play, a game. Deception and competition collaborate with peaceful rule-bound conduct to form progress or unfolding.

(I hope i'm not subconsciously quoting Alan Watts or something, fuck my ass)

I really don't know more than the surface of them, I still want to study them, as well as so many other things. I think is not fair to put aside the fact that the idea of karma and (in India) social castes are into that kind of thought. For me the facts, the real efforts is what makes alive something. If you are enlightened and you stay there in your cave or wherever, just waiting for followers to show them your path or them to buy your book... what kind of enlightment is that? Is kinda ironic that normally they talk about being one with God and so on, some kind of "the ego doesn't exists", then they try to keep away "desires" and "attachment" so then, everything changes but only thing that remains is the God-like consciousness.. Otherwise you'll be affected by the ohhh so bad...suffering...! Maybe I'm exaggerating, but it's not far from being real, at least in a lot of western followers of those paths.

and then? for me that's just another way of avoiding being real, some kind of immanent transcendence instead of the typical otherworld promise of external transcendence. At least with the external transcendence normally is a way of doing to reach there. There's a way of looking at that and it's saying that's basically just being a slave of whoever ideas/morals but I don think that both in indianndmonotheistic cultures agree that the morals are not something that are told by anyone, primarily, but are more like finding our true nature, so you can reach naturally, by the intelect, to the same good behaviours as those that just simply obey, or at least it should be equal, like a natural law. I think that is kinda ironic that if enlightment were real, those who get there would prefer to stay quiet and basically do the less the better.. I find it intriguing, or just that: just another form of escapism, through "absolute consciousness".

Having said that, I believe that both worlds can and should take advantage of and learn from each other and that they can offer teachings of a spiritual nature that are mostly complementary. In any case, I see many very "enlightened" people who avoid a conflict at the minimum, or behave in a childish way when something is beyond their "expectation" or who, after taking a course on x, start another course as soon as they can about something even more "illuminating". For the record, I am not making fun of these people, each one has their own way of growing up in the world and its rhythms, presumably we all live in a form of self-deception, at one level or another, but well, the marketing of the spirit is one of the most painful to see.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Couldn't reply till now, been in a move to an island, so it was quite busy..

I normally don't get so strong effects from tryptamines, I'm very sensitive to lysergamides so I normally don't take them (never tried a high dose of lsd, I kinda did with hbwr which I consider much more spiritual and entheogenic). I consider myself a hard-head for tryptamines but perhaps I'm not compared to other people, I don't usually have strong visuals but sometimes something changes in me, I think I'm easily self-suggestable so to speak.
Maybe what I saw was not 100% that, so other person would have interpreted in a different way, not sure, I'm pretty sure about the feelings, so I think that communicates more than the visuals itself, most times.

I understand what you say about the dualistic principles of the world, I mostly consider the world as some kind of theater on which dualistic principles are the 75% of what's going on but is quite likely that, at the end of it, there's some higher principle that eliminates that dualistic "fight". The thing is that I don't agree with indian mystics (advaita vedanta and so on, even with buddhism) that we should AIM for escaping dualism, finding oneness with the non-dualistic force that soak evertything.
I mean, I know that's for sure good for a lot of reasons, but I consider that it's actually some deep ego trick to avoid the real nature of being human, which is so deeply engrained in dualistic principles. Is probably good to remember and experience, from time to time, that you can participate and you are that non-dualistic nature AS WELL AS being part of the dualistic world, but not like.. avoiding fully living our entire nature, which in a way I think those "yogis" want, just for the same (IMO) weak reason: to not suffer.
I don't think the central aim of being human should be to find the way to not suffering anymore. Surely is great to find that but, to focus all your spiritual work for that? come on... maybe is because I don't get it. I would "buy" whatever else.

About your experiences with entities and the occult:
I wasn't sure if taking psychedelics from time to time was or wasn't playing with the occult, right now I have less doubts, I think it has a big part of it and it's something that, actually, I'm not very proud of. It's not that I regret it or consider it to have been in error either, I still see a lot of positive and constructive things, that I feel a kinship with, with psychedelics. What is the problem? Well, the first time I had a breakthrough with dmt I came to a place that I didn't feel "safe", rather it felt like a place where I was NOT invited and where I had absolutely no control, rather I felt that incredible forces were surrounding me and that I was a complete sucker under their control.

the truth is that the experience was incredible (I consumed maybe too much because in a momentary madness I took a spoon and poured in the dab a good amount, possibly more than 60mg when I had already vaporized another 50 before in the first toke)... I left there not believing what had happened, it seemed so beautiful and surprising as impossible. Still I felt at some point that those "beings" wanted something from me and I refused, at one point they gave me a "hyperspace kick" and took me out of hyperspace for a few seconds, giving me a communication: your life sucks and you are doing it very wrong. It honestly seemed like an attack to me, a kind of revenge for not playing their game. Then I came back and the trip was mind-blowing.

The problem was not during the trip, but the following weeks and months where during dreams, usually in periods of stress or a few days after taking some psychedelic or empathogen, I suffered (and still suffer) psychic attacks of entities, sometimes together with sleep paralysis, but not always.
These attacks have been of various types, feeling that a dark, deadly energy is getting into my heart, feeling that I am being electrified (with a very real pain) and getting up shaking and with twitching muscles, feeling that a vortex similar to dmt but dark tries to swallow me, feeling that there are entities freezing me in my sleep and noticing that my astral body moves but not my body....

Anyway, this kind of experiences have convinced me that I should be very careful with psychedelics in high doses and that they have a lot to do with the occult.
While I have always felt an intellectual and somewhat spiritual curiosity towards the occult, today I find it quite worrying, given who are the major players in this field, the elites, and also given that these same elites tend to take their rituals and their "magick" too far in a way that I find completely repulsive. I understand that "from the inside" it is clearer the nature of this evil, but I would say that this evil can play with you or with me, so that you could end up being a pawn of such beings (the entities or the elites).
Probably those elites (some of them very into the O.T.O. afaik) are actually pawns of the dark entities, and not the other way around. Imagine you or me, the amount of real "control" we can have over something like that... (I understand that you will consider that more than not learning about it, but ok).
For things like that I prefer to be away from that world

It's a misunderstanding that psychedelics have to do with the occult...they are just both ultimately techniques that lead to the opening of portals with consciousness.
They are both just tools and are neutral until it's used in a helpful or malicious manner at the direction of someone's will.
It's your belief in everything thst makes everything happen and 99% of everything within the occult is just an elaborate rouse to make you believe in a specific reality with fervor and faith.
Ceremonial Magick is just an elaborate ritual DRAMA .all the impressive robes and magickal implements and temple set up and shouting of incorrect Hebrew at the wall is meant to impress you and belive in it because there is very much a social expectation that whsts happening is real by all of the participants.
I used to be close to some people in Ordo Templi Orientis and have studied Thelema and much Crowley's A:.A:. System and I personally don't think tye OTO is a malicious order....and I've sought out groups thst I felt could potentially kill me or expect me to kill others or pursue similar acts of extreme danger (none if tgst ever happened thankfully) but a lot of what happens in the occult world is simply meant to test you and de-program you and re-program you unless you can see through whsts actually happening in which case you'll be either promoted or kicked out of the order.
I've felt I've learned all I could from tye right and left hand path abd follow my own now with a very deep understanding the world and why everything is the way it is and this I would consider at least a form of real enlightenment.
There are so many forms of Buddhism and nearly all if them recognize that the DESIRE to reach enlightened is in itself driven from the ego.
It's very common in eastern religions to be told once you've reached a certain grade of understanding that "everything we taught you up to this point is bullshit and is simply meant to bring into a state of understanding where you can now face the truth...and then it repeats over and over again util you finally can see that it's all bullshit. All of it.
It's your belief that is the fuel.
I really like Zazen Soto Zen Buddhism becsuse it reveals this to you at the beginning.
It's entirely focused on real world practices and not in desire just doing for the sake of doing it and what results follow are secondary.
This has been my entire approach to studying all of this stuff throughout my life to test them and myself without every giving into anything.
Many many spirtual experiences need to be uncomfortable or even terrifying inmho . Its mistake to think that enlightenment doesn't require incredibly difficult and even painful experiences.
The idea is use those experiences to understand tye deeper nature of yourself and others and the forces that push this world in every direction.
I wonder what night have happened if instead of showing fear to those entities you banished your fear and showed a degree of Dominion over them...possibly they might have treated you differently or maybe they were trying to tell you that you in fact were living your life wrong and needed a spiritual kick in the butt...we all do from time to time.

 

[Neuroborean]

There are so many forms of Buddhism and nearly all if them recognize that the DESIRE to reach enlightened is in itself driven from the ego.
It's very common in eastern religions to be told once you've reached a certain grade of understanding that "everything we taught you up to this point is bullshit and is simply meant to bring into a state of understanding where you can now face the truth...and then it repeats over and over again util you finally can see that it's all bullshit. All of it.

yep, I like that too, but finally I think everything is so "culturally driven" cause, in a way, I think that "stance" regarding enlightment is more like a stance regarding life, that is very asiatic, (and I appreciate that of them, because it brings some specific type of discipline). It reminds me that "chop wood, carry water" saying about enlightment.

Many many spirtual experiences need to be uncomfortable or even terrifying inmho . Its mistake to think that enlightenment doesn't require incredibly difficult and even painful experiences.
The idea is use those experiences to understand tye deeper nature of yourself and others and the forces that push this world in every direction.

Of course, that's the thing about it, I know that those "demons" or whatever the heck that torture me from time to time in dreams (today I had a sleep paralysis but it was "normal") are also there to teach me and to make me more conscient, probably the same goes with the DMT dome and all that beings there. One just measure where it's going and how far one want to go in. In my case, I do indulge in dreams cause is what is what fascinates me the most.

However, knowing that I might play things like divination and things like that, I'd rather not touch those things. For me, lucid dreams are in general a sufficiently fascinating and mysterious world, mainly because I do not share the idea of psychologists/psychoanalysts about the subconscious, I do not even fully share the Jungian idea of the collective subconscious, although it seems more interesting to me.
You talk about "Dominion" but feeling and instant electroshock that engulfs you brutally is completely incapacitating, to the point of feeling only that, let alone thinking about trying to fight back, which of course I would have tried, I am not usually afraid of what hurts me, rather I feel anger or rage, which are not very positive emotions either, there is always talk of "vibrating high" but when they are electrocuting you or similar, the last thing that comes out of my soul is love or compassion.

About the Drama and so on, Nietzsche elaborates this in an interesting way when he talks about fantasy, the poetic/metaphorical role of the mind and senses and the dyonisiac rites. Is probably not very different than that, but finally whatever kind of "realness" it has, I still think those realities are more than egregores, but that's just my opinion/intuition. Don't know man, not sure about the real character of O.T.O., probably it depends a lot on personal perspectives as well as who do you find in your path, maybe the ones at the top are not how you would imagine, nor how I imagine them to be. Are you talking maybe of some crazy people of the ONA, perhaps? those seem completely nuts, but I'm sure there's some unknown groups that are much worse..
Gotta sleep now. ; )

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

One of my absolute favorite Philosopher's is Robert Anton Wilson and he was very close the the then head of O:.T:.O:.
Grady McMurty and RAW I doubt strongly would have associated with anyone even remotely sinister.
The danger from occult imho besides real physical dangers of putting youself in situations that groups like O9A would have you do also arise from simply harshly questioning your own deeply cherished world views and past traumas and phobias.
Crowley arguably finally went completely nuts attempting to summon his Holy Guardian Angel while utilizing the right hand path G:.D:. System.
In my personal experience a lot of what the public thinks goes on does not truthfully reflect what actually occurs unless in extreme circumstances within groups thst I've dealt with connected to O9A .
Alot of their infamy is propaganda and they love that other occult groups even other left hand path groups fear them and they use that to their advantage....they want the type of people who would still approach them knowing they may very well suffer mortally for doing so....those types of people are extremely rare. Especially today.
And yes, certainly they are many more even more seemingly psychotic occult groups out there than even T:.O:.B:.
For me....I needed to test my limits to know who I truly am and just who I think I am.
All of this is to KNOW THYSELF.
And after all of this I can say with much certainty that I am NOT a sinister or truly evil person exactly because where my real limits are and like you said...at the end of the day we must ask ourselves why are we here abd what are we really doing?
Evil will always exist because it's weaved into the fabric of our world and is absolutely essential for other neccessary things to function. It is one of the most powerful forces driving all of evolution.
But do we as humans need to add to this natural force? Only very rarely and in exceedingly rare and specific circumstances.
These days I'm far more interested in quantum mechanics and being as compassionate as possible.
This is what learning about the nature of real evil has led me to.
I cannot say most would end up where I have.

 

[Mjäll]

There are so many forms of Buddhism and nearly all if them recognize that the DESIRE to reach enlightened is in itself driven from the ego.
It's very common in eastern religions to be told once you've reached a certain grade of understanding that "everything we taught you up to this point is bullshit and is simply meant to bring into a state of understanding where you can now face the truth...and then it repeats over and over again util you finally can see that it's all bullshit. All of it.
It's your belief that is the fuel.
I really like Zazen Soto Zen Buddhism becsuse it reveals this to you at the beginning.
It's entirely focused on real world practices and not in desire just doing for the sake of doing it and what results follow are secondary.
This has been my entire approach to studying all of this stuff throughout my life to test them and myself without every giving into anything.

I understand what you're saying. Buddhism certainly has its own awareness of that irony of the desire to be free from desire. However, they still have a respected social class and spiritual function that is to renounce all worldly pursuits for the spiritual, or the abstract, or the liberation from desire. I think we have the opportunity to consider this behavior an error, even if buddhism itself has some kind of recognition of the same problem to a degree.

 

[Mjäll]

About the entity encounters and spiritual shock sensations, i think they are often reminders of our potential and the distance between that potential and our current identity/situation. This can be very painful, very meaningful, very real throughout the whole body. I have had it occur mostly in nightmares. I have had extremely deep, lifelike and horrifying encounters, but i still can't find a reason to believe in these entities as actual real beings beyond the dark machinations of my own psyche.

Psychedelics allow us to deal with all that in a controlled, purposeful, steady manner if we want. Or opening the floodgates completely, at the risk of a living nightmare. That nightmare can also be brought under control, or Dominion like mr Trippington said. Or perhaps rather, one can learn to face it and stand up to it and come out stronger.