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☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

LucidSDreamr

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...i never got to the point of having hunner's ulcers, I just have glomerulations the doctor said afer putting a camera in. Maybe I'm just a pussy when it comes to percieving pain, must have been all those years of opioids now I'm hypersensitive to pain.

don't get me wrong, I've had periods lasting months where i've had no pain, but it seems to come back for no reason even though i stick to a very stict diet and no drugs at all. not sure why. all I can say is be carefulj wity dissociatives because permanent chronic pain is something a lot of people just end up killing themselves from. probabaly a trite statement though because if it was possible for drug addicts to learn from the mistakes and suffering of others...well none of us would be drug addicts. we have to get to that point for ourselves.

hydodistention (strecting out the bladder with liquid injection) has always sounded like torture to me.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and please keep us updated. I do not find very many people at all to talk to about dissociative induced bladder cystitis.
 

G_Chem

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...i never got to the point of having hunner's ulcers, I just have glomerulations the doctor said afer putting a camera in. Maybe I'm just a pussy when it comes to percieving pain, must have been all those years of opioids now I'm hypersensitive to pain.

don't get me wrong, I've had periods lasting months where i've had no pain, but it seems to come back for no reason even though i stick to a very stict diet and no drugs at all. not sure why. all I can say is be carefulj wity dissociatives because permanent chronic pain is something a lot of people just end up killing themselves from. probabaly a trite statement though because if it was possible for drug addicts to learn from the mistakes and suffering of others...well none of us would be drug addicts. we have to get to that point for ourselves.

hydodistention (strecting out the bladder with liquid injection) has always sounded like torture to me.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and please keep us updated. I do not find very many people at all to talk to about dissociative induced bladder cystitis.

Hey man do you mind giving a list of RC dissociative you’ve used? I too wonder if one of those may be to blame, I know first hand just how impure some of them can be.

-GC
 

Vastness

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^ I'd also be very interested in that @LucidSDreamr. I know I've mentioned this before and as I recall you did not attribute the same significance to this as I did, so perhaps I am not correct in this being important - but I distinctly remember you posting a few years back in the "How high are you?" thread about a bag of DCK that felt particularly "caustic", and you eventually flushed. I also had obtained some DCK around that time - and using a relatively small amount of this compared to the multi-gram ketamine binges I was consuming at the time - I experienced my first quite persistent bladder issues afterwards, as well as definite low mood and uncomfortable, drawn out aftereffects. I also eventually flushed this bag. I suspect still it's possible we got it from the same source - and I wonder therefore if it's possible this specific batch played some important role in the bladder effects we both experienced (to some extent, I mean the immediate effects rather than the chronic ones of course, obviously for sure I got off more lightly, don't mean to devalue your suffering by comparing it too directly to my own). Perhaps also the persistence of these effects required a certain amount of "priming" of the bladder to be more vulnerable to whatever (hypothetical) chemical impurities, by a certain level of use of ketamine or other ACHs (for former of which, again, I had used a lot of).

I don't know enough about chemistry to say how likely this is though, what possible toxic byproducts there could be. At the time the only other "RC" disso I had used was 3-MeO-PCP, but I would think in too low quantities to be of any real concern, and I never experienced the same immediately noticeable aftereffects from 3-MeO-PCP back then or any 3-x-PCx since.

Also curious which impure dissociatives you're referring to, @G_Chem - if it is DCK from however many years back, surely I might be onto something here... if not, I guess maybe not, but would still be good to know.
 

LucidSDreamr

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Hey man do you mind giving a list of RC dissociative you’ve used? I too wonder if one of those may be to blame, I know first hand just how impure some of them can be.

-GC

Its not impurities it the pharmacology of the drugs themselves that causes a cascade that results in the immune system damaging the bladder. There are papers published on this. There is also a paper linked at the top of this thread showing that MXE causes the damage like K does. I assume since it was an academic study they used pure MXE and still observed damage to the bladder.

My use when like this

Mxe and occasional K for 3 years...total used was maybe 20 to 50 g of mxe over that time (wild guess).

Then 3meo pcp for a year. Maybe 2 to 5 grams over the year. With maybe 5 to 7 grams of k right after the pcp phase.

Dck I only used a few times at the end after the problems first began...during the pcp phase. Less than 200 mg total.

...lots of other drugs though and alcohol which I'm sure didnt help. KRATOM in particular was extremely hard on my bladder and caused pain. I could do any other drug besides dissos and not get pain with the exception of kratom. Now weed is pretty much the only drug that doesn't cause pain
 

G_Chem

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Its not impurities it the pharmacology of the drugs themselves that causes a cascade that results in the immune system damaging the bladder. There are papers published on this. There is also a paper linked at the top of this thread showing that MXE causes the damage like K does. I assume since it was an academic study they used pure MXE and still observed damage to the bladder.

My use when like this

Mxe and occasional K for 3 years...total used was maybe 20 to 50 g of mxe over that time (wild guess).

Then 3meo pcp for a year. Maybe 2 to 5 grams over the year. With maybe 5 to 7 grams of k right after the pcp phase.

Dck I only used a few times at the end after the problems first began...during the pcp phase. Less than 200 mg total.

...lots of other drugs though and alcohol which I'm sure didnt help. KRATOM in particular was extremely hard on my bladder and caused pain. I could do any other drug besides dissos and not get pain with the exception of kratom. Now weed is pretty much the only drug that doesn't cause pain

So I tried to use kratom to help me get off Suboxone one time and by day 10 felt like my kidneys were beginning to shut down and my piss looked like dark beer and smelled horrible. My lower back hurt so bad and I began throwing up profusely, shit was horrible.

I agree kratom can definitely be rough on the urinary system.

-GC
 

LucidSDreamr

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So I tried to use kratom to help me get off Suboxone one time and by day 10 felt like my kidneys were beginning to shut down and my piss looked like dark beer and smelled horrible. My lower back hurt so bad and I began throwing up profusely, shit was horrible.

I agree kratom can definitely be rough on the urinary system.

-GC

...but dont tell any Kratom heads that. Damn are they defensive about their "harmless plant" that apparently is not a drug.
 

Yawning Angel

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Is anyone else ameliorating these bladder effects with EGCG and Hyaluronic Acid?
Would love to know if any of you with damage has tried the below strategies?

-----------
Why take EGCG with Ketamine?

The exact mechanism of damage has yet to be established but the prevailing theory is that norketamine and its metabolites are irritants that strongly adhere to urothelial tissues lining the bladder walls which in turn produces irreversible damage, with sustained heavy use culminating in interstitial cystitis. Fortunately, unless you are a daily abuser of it, the damage done will be minuscule. And even better news for you, there already has been some extremely promising research with preventing the ketamine induced bladder damage with coadministration of EGCG

By contrast, simultaneous EGCG and ketamine treatment reversed ketamine-induced damage to almost control levels, showing the protective effect of EGCG

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879522615004157

https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/48klkt
Why take Hyaluronic acid?

Hyaluronic acid is used to treat interstitial cystitis. Specifically Intravesical hyaluronic acid treatment is used for ketamine-associated cystitis with a solution inserted into the bladder through a catheter.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=hyaluronic+acid+ketamine

Oral Hyaluronic acid supplements have been shown to help. Better than a catheter.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=oral+hyaluronic+acid+bladder+cystitis
****

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskDrugNerds/comments/76xm4j
"We report that the bladder damage observed in ketamine users is caused by direct contact of the epithelial bladder lining with urinary ketamine and not by a systemic change in the whole body that affects the organ, as has previously been suggested by others," https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/861056

By contrast, simultaneous EGCG and ketamine treatment reversed ketamine-induced damage to almost control levels, showing the protective effect of EGCG. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879522615004157

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskDrugNerds/comments/6rg8k3/_/dl66kl6
 

Yawning Angel

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Ok, sorry just finished catching up. Glad to see EGCG getting around.

In the week since I have taken daily 3000mg glucosamine sulphate, 300mg hyaluronic acid, and 2000mg D-Mannose daily, all orally, and after 5 or 6 days I would say my symptoms have totally resolved.
I've been wondering on hyaluronic acid oral dosage. Vastness, any details on your choice there? I'd also like to know why/how glucosamine and D-Mannose help?

Ok Context:
I've been using low K amounts near daily for 6 months, IM and nasal. Taking EGCG (LEF bran, decaf) and hyaluronic the whole time.
Recently had first K-Hole via IM, accidentally initially, and then 3 more times on purpose (WOW) and in the days since have perfected powder to liquid so won't be doing nasal anymore...(mostly, but will spit the drip now thanks!)
I am however stuck gobsmacked by how *amazing* a k hole is and am now trying to plan so as to reduce future harm / keep it real.

I've taken BPC-157 Sub-Q before for other healing... had read about it's gut healing potential... will give oral a go. @Vastness why nasal spray as your chosen route?

I take Cerebrolysin sporadically. 10ml usually. It's a nice way to repair some of the damage from various things, or at least feels like that. Hope that helps with these potential Olney's lesions! Anyone have a followup on that? Any other long term neurodegenerative evidence?

I also have cinchona bark powder... looks like it's going in my gin tonics more regularly... along with caps of Quercetin and Curcumin w. piperine, (Thanks @Survived Abortion)

I usually finish a night with 2mg Midazolam IM or 7.5mg oral, magnesium, melatonin, metformin (want to live longer), and lots of water of course.
Hitting a K-hole, and wanting to be able to get there again for years to come, might even actually finally get me to ease off alcohol.... though my liver values are fine which I put down to NAC (before only!), silymarin after, and TUDCA the morning after.

Anything else anyone can suggest? Is the consensus that the ketamine alternatives do or don't get you to the same place and with or without similar damage? I haven't kept up.

Party smart friends ❤️
 

G_Chem

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Yea I’ve felt issues off amounts ya’ll would laugh at so it truly think it’s likely genetic. It’s best to be aware of the symptoms to stop soon as you feel them. In my case, a burning/tight urethra, abdomen pains, and changes in urination frequency and amounts.

I should note I also feel these symptoms more with certain batches of K. I strictly use two types, one looks like fine needle shards, the other is the big chunk. I’ve found the big chunk stuff, which feels racemic to me but unsure, to causes a lot more problems than the tiny fine needle stuff.

I had those symptoms bad last year but then I switched to using fine needle stuff and the symptoms went away completely. I’ve also slowed my frequency by about 30%.

-GC
 

Vastness

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I've been wondering on hyaluronic acid oral dosage. Vastness, any details on your choice there? I'd also like to know why/how glucosamine and D-Mannose help?
Hyaluronic acid is what was used in the one recorded case study of an (apparently) complete reversal of fairly advanced bladder damage (K-induced). These instances used intravesical administration, ie, squirted up a catheter directly into the bladder... But I found a study or 2 indicating that HA can be active orally, although both of those studies may not have been unbiased, some of the scientists are connected with a company that sells HA-infused beauty products and suchlike... But, I try to just take a scattergun approach to prevention, take anything that might be helpful! I couldn't tell you the exact biological mechanism for glucosamine and D-mannose being helpful but they are both used in symptomatic treatment of interstitial cystitis, and from what I can tell many of the same approaches are at least somewhat effective in treating KIC ("Ketamine induced cystitis) too. Whether it's actually preventative, or even healing, rather than just a temporary masker of symptoms is up for debate... but even treatment of symptoms in soft tissues can reduce the likelihood of any more permanent changes. Glucosamine I can't say I've really felt much from, just happened to have some around before chancing on the information about it's bladder effects. D-mannose however definitely noticeably relieves symptoms of bladder awareness and sometimes I'll take maintenance doses for a few days or a week after a heavy binge. It definitely helps with the symptoms, but again I couldn't tell you the mechanism or whatever that means it's truly protective or preventative.

I've taken BPC-157 Sub-Q before for other healing... had read about it's gut healing potential... will give oral a go. @Vastness why nasal spray as your chosen route?
BPC-157 is orally active and "gastrically stable" or whatever the term is, ie, it is not destroyed by stomach acids, so there is probably no reason even to nasal spray it. I don't inject anything at the moment though, so often will make peptides that are usually intended for injection into nasal sprays, if they're small enough, molecularly (some are not suitable for nasal administration because of this, TB500 for example is too big, although I've never had cause to use that anyway). I had good results with BPC-157 administered via this method before though, mainly with faster recovery from exercise. I have not specifically taken it myself to heal my bladder, but, hopefully it's having some effect... from what I gather BPC-157 is also generally active systemically so injection into a specific location that you want to heal faster is generally not necessary.
 

Vastness

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^ Great post and very true, particularly:
The thing about ketamine is that you don't realize what you're doing to yourself as its happening, and the cognitive damage manifests itself in a more clearheaded, deceptive way than that of other drugs like alcoholism or MDMA abuse.
Yet again, an example of the deceptive nature of arylcyclohexylamines.

It took me a long time to accept that ketamine was doing me any real harm, for sure.

People do report benefits of course... I'll say honestly, I am actually always skeptical even of these and wonder if there are some elements of self delusion going on. I believe that ketamine can have therapeutic value - done properly - but I have strong doubts it's possible to self-medicate therapeutically, for the vast majority of people. Even with medical supervision of course, since ketamine's approval for medical use there seem to be a huge number of very very shady "ketamine clinics" that seen to just operate on a "one or 2 megadoses and done", policy, whereas the actual approval in the states (AFAIK) is for almost sub-perceptual microdoses administered at regular intervals for a set period of time.

Of course, ketamine is a pseudo-psychedelic and any powerful psychedelic experience has the potential to promote long term positive changes, but not reliably, and especially not without follow up care from trained psychiatric professionals, preferably those with some specialisation in psychedelic medicine. And of course, again... ketamine is addictive, unlike the traditional psychedelics, and as such even a single life-altering experience is liable to have it's benefits quickly undone by chasing that unique dissociated magic. Again, obviously this is especially true for those who are self-medicating, even those who initially DID benefit from it. If one experience did good, why not several? But, with this drug less is often more.
 

Yawning Angel

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I focused on holing myself, maybe one or two long weekends a month, and the net effect was a very subtle but slowly growing sense of paranoia / irrational thinking, very slowing growing cognitive deficits (language, motor skills, certain types of memory, etc.); a very slow and gradual dimming, alteration, or erasure of past memory. The last was and remains the worst: it's like reverse Alzheimer's that chips away at the back forward instead of the forward back.

If you're into self-betterment through chemistry I'd personally stay far away, or only use once or twice a year in modest amounts. The thing about ketamine is that you don't realize what you're doing to yourself as its happening, and the cognitive damage manifests itself in a more clearheaded, deceptive way than that of other drugs like alcoholism or MDMA abuse.

This is great information and advice. Thank you @PYTH, Thank you @Vastness.
Obviously I'm caught up in the excitement of the initial find, and noticing the psychological draw. I can see the negatives already though, while influenced the inability to write/do things, memory problems etc. I would hate this to become permanent. Have you found anything helps? anything from the smart drug / TBI treatment realm?

I would add there's definitely a heavy delusional/illusion quality to the pattern recognition / everything is amazing / all centered on me thing. Reminds me slightly of the 'promises' and seemingly all encompassing revelations of the nitrous experience. Fair bit deeper though, which adds to the danger.

It's really great to have this insight from your experiences. Thank f*ck for bluelight.
 

Yawning Angel

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Ketamine-Induced Neurotoxicity
At the EM level, DNA degradation and chromosome condensation were observed in layers II and III of the frontal cortex of PND-7 rats after 6 ketamine (20 mg/kg) injections, providing direct evidence of neuronal cell death (Fig. 1B1B). DNA degradation and chromosome condensation indicate advanced states of apoptosis. T

Repeated ketamine injections (20 mg/kg × 6) caused a more than 10-fold increase in neuronal damage in the frontal cortex and around a 3-fold increase in the striatum, hippocampus, thalamus, and amygdala

These data suggest that the frontal cortex is the region most vulnerable to ketamine-induced neurotoxicity during the development


To date, data from both rodents and nonhuman primates have demonstrated the neurotoxic effects of ketamine on the developing brain [2, 4, 6, 7]. These findings have raised concerns regarding the safe administration of ketamine in the obstetric and pediatric setting. Further experiments are needed to determine the clinical significance of the animal observations, particularly in light of the fact that the animal studies showing ketamine-induced toxicity have been carried out in intact animals, not in animals undergoing surgical or other traumatic procedures.

Consistent with the previous data of Ikonomidou et al. [2], the present study demonstrated that lower doses and shorter exposure durations of ketamine treatment did not result in neurotoxicity in the developing rat brain. The cell death induced by ketamine was dose and exposure duration dependent. Ketamine levels in plasma and brain were highest soon after the last exposure, decreased rapidly thereafter, and were undetectable within 6 h [14]. An interesting observation is that the time course of plasma and brain ketamine levels do not parallel that for neuronal cell death: when plasma and brain ketamine had decreased to near zero, neuronal cell death was increasing significantly [14]. Meanwhile, increases in NMDA receptor NR1 subunit mRNA levels, as demonstrated using in situ hybridization techniques, appeared to be highest in the frontal cortical areas where the most severe neurodegeneration was observed. One explanation for these observations is that the enhanced cell death caused by ketamine is closely associated in time with altered NMDA receptor expression and not in situ plasma or brain tissue ketamine levels.

Several lines of evidence indicate that activation of NMDA receptors causes apoptosis and necrosis [4, 5, 16-20]. In nonhuman primates, ketamine-induced neuronal death is characterized by both apoptosis and necrosis

Moreover, we showed in our previous studies that ketamine-induced neurodegeneration was blocked by NR1 antisense oligonucleotides in cultured rat and monkey neurons [6, 7] providing additional evidence supporting this hypothesis.

 

Bitstorm

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- - — For a simple document re bladder, from dancesafe.org (longest running harm reduction team) designed for younger users or for easy accessibility... see/share this — - -
 

tazz20

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I'm just wondering, is it normal to have to pee more frequently while using it? I recently got into ketamine and knew that long term use could mess up your bladder. I've been using it for a few weeks now and feel like I've been taking a few bumps every few days which I realize is too much. I recently got a hold on myself and got myself to stop using it all the time. I have not experienced any bladder pain or any odd urination patterns when not using it. Should I be ok? Is the more common urgency to pee while high on it normal? In general I also seem to have a sensitive bladder when I drink alcohol and I'll pee several times in one night.
 

Bitstorm

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Someone I know has developed cystisis (awaiting medical confirmation) even while taking EGCG and oral hyaluronic acid, quite solidly. 6 months use with EGCG the whole time so they say.
Small sample size, but it is what it is.
EDIT: May just be a UTI/Bacerial thing. Will update when it becomes clear.

Has anyone here tried a hyaluronic acid instillation? I'll try to get them some help for the pain.
Also looking into Phenazopyridine Hydrochloride and calcium glycerophosphate (drugs.com/drp/prelief-tablets-and-granulate.html)

Has anyone tried omeprazole?

"The patient was further managed with oral and intravenous hydration, a multivitamin supplement, and omeprazole. The acute kidney injury and the liver function abnormalities improved gradually (Table 1). He gained 3 kg body weight within a week of inpatient medical treatment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059572/"


@tazz20 Sounds similar to this person I know. I would advise caution. The doses are small, until they're not. Even then small daily use for someone susceptible could be too much risk.
This is a great starting point: dancesafe.org/ketamine-bladder-damage-what-you-need-to-know/
Also https://ketaminecystitis.org/
 
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