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☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

HearWhalesLaugh

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well here’s a sad panda datapoint... I have done 2fdck a mere 3 times in the last 45ish days and I’m feeling it after the last one...

to be fair I was a dumbass this time.. didn’t plan for it and had crappy food
In the tum etc etc but I’m gonna have to keep dissos to a 3 month rule
And probably stick to boofing to maximize my effect per mg...

I’ve been feeling my bladder all day and having to pee a little more often. Switching back to green tea from coffee and praying for the best. If the 3 month thing doesn’t work well , bye bye ACHs

(I had strep in my blood a few years back and had sores on my member, and it hurt like fire to piss.. before I found out what it was i Thought my partner had cheated on me! So im never looking to experience that again)
 

Chris Timothy

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I personally like magnesium l-threonate although it’s not cheap.

-GC

I can't say I share the like. It doesn't seem to significantly add to the effect of the glycinate form. And apart from hurting the wallet it's headachy and vaguely nauseating. It looks good on paper for sure, but in practice all that seems to do is explain its price tag.

The glycinate has an effect on its own by the way, which makes it particularly suited for ketamine aftercare. It's a co-agonist of the NMDA receptor, which could be stronger than the conditional antagonism by magnesium itself, and down-regulate the up-regulated cochlear receptors in spite of glycinate's effect on the nervous system in general, which is acting as a (in my case welcome) ever so slight downer.

So the threonate form could be preferable as preventive option if you want to avoid sedation (and anything resembling NMDA-agonism) at all cost, and you don't notice its head and stomach load. Apart from that, it does kick in faster. Those are the only pros I can think off. So I'd advice against.
 

jhjhsdi

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which makes it particularly suited for ketamine aftercare. It's a co-agonist of the NMDA receptor, which could be stronger than the conditional antagonism by magnesium itself, and down-regulate the up-regulated cochlear receptors in spite of glycinate's effect on the nervous system in general, which is acting as a (in my case welcome) ever so slight downer
can i get that in laymans terms plz pal?
 

MsDiz

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I can't say I share the like. It doesn't seem to significantly add to the effect of the glycinate form. And apart from hurting the wallet it's headachy and vaguely nauseating. It looks good on paper for sure, but in practice all that seems to do is explain its price tag.

The glycinate has an effect on its own by the way, which makes it particularly suited for ketamine aftercare. It's a co-agonist of the NMDA receptor, which could be stronger than the conditional antagonism by magnesium itself, and down-regulate the up-regulated cochlear receptors in spite of glycinate's effect on the nervous system in general, which is acting as a (in my case welcome) ever so slight downer.

So the threonate form could be preferable as preventive option if you want to avoid sedation (and anything resembling NMDA-agonism) at all cost, and you don't notice its head and stomach load. Apart from that, it does kick in faster. Those are the only pros I can think off. So I'd advice against.
Thiamine will help with the headaches when it comes to magnesium l-threonate.
 

Chris Timothy

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can i get that in laymans terms plz pal?
First sentence in the quote, really. Although I'm somewhat guessing, the mechanism of the glycinate form does look like something that should reverse some dissociative damage at the receptor level, on top of magnesium's action. That complex combination of effects on the relevant neurons might just be what's needed to help normalize them again. I can't state it with any more confidence, because I suppose the general, slight downer effect could explain the decrease of my tinnitus in itself. Nevertheless, from what I've read I can imagine specific reparative stuff going on, I'd say it's worth betting on this particular form of magnesium supplementation for general ketamine harm reduction, perhaps during but especially after the trip.

Thiamine will help with the headaches when it comes to magnesium l-threonate.
I do take multivitamins, so I take it you're not talking standard dose? Anyway, I won't be testing, even if I'd have a reason to. I've read a report of higher dose B vitamins increasing the ringing.
 

Bicycle Tripper

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I recently tried 25mg of DCK orally and a few days later had difficulty urinating and pain similar to when I had kidney stones, this lasted for a few days. Should I take this to mean I'm predisposed to bladder damage from dissociatives?

I'm not too bothered if I can't try any dissociatives again but I was hoping to experience a hole at least once, I only really felt a bit wobbly from the DCK.
 

G_Chem

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I can't say I share the like. It doesn't seem to significantly add to the effect of the glycinate form. And apart from hurting the wallet it's headachy and vaguely nauseating. It looks good on paper for sure, but in practice all that seems to do is explain its price tag.

The glycinate has an effect on its own by the way, which makes it particularly suited for ketamine aftercare. It's a co-agonist of the NMDA receptor, which could be stronger than the conditional antagonism by magnesium itself, and down-regulate the up-regulated cochlear receptors in spite of glycinate's effect on the nervous system in general, which is acting as a (in my case welcome) ever so slight downer.

So the threonate form could be preferable as preventive option if you want to avoid sedation (and anything resembling NMDA-agonism) at all cost, and you don't notice its head and stomach load. Apart from that, it does kick in faster. Those are the only pros I can think off. So I'd advice against.

I’ve found the dosages they recommend are WAY too high. I use probably 50-100mg a night and it’s amazing when needed. Although I’ve never tried glycinate.

Also I was under the impression the NMDA-antagonist effects were a magnesium thing no matter the salt/form. I definitely feel like l-threonate has mild NMDA-antagonist effects.

All that said, it is expensive and if the other forms work just as well then go for them. Since I use such low doses it, a bottle lasts me awhile.

-GC
 

Chris Timothy

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Mine come in 50mg doses, yeah. I would have to start opening the capsules to go any lower.

You had the right impression. In short, magnesium antagonises, and glycinate agonises.

Thanks for the tip though, was worth a try.
 

Chris Timothy

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I had some logistical problems with the glycinate, so I used some l-threonate to spread out the stash. It's not that bad in combination with the glycinate, I got used to the stomach feel at least. Only got the headache a couple of times, though at random, and very dose-independent (just from 8mg one time).

It turns out that on top of all its other effects, glycinate is the prodrug of glutathione, the body's own antioxidant. So preloading should be useful as well!
 

LucidSDreamr

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I recently tried 25mg of DCK orally and a few days later had difficulty urinating and pain similar to when I had kidney stones, this lasted for a few days. Should I take this to mean I'm predisposed to bladder damage from dissociatives?

I'm not too bothered if I can't try any dissociatives again but I was hoping to experience a hole at least once, I only really felt a bit wobbly from the DCK.
I'm my experience DCK was the most brutal disso on the bladder. I also used me. K mxe and 3meopcp...but dck flared me the worst by far before I fully quit. I would rank K as the easiest of these on the bladder.

You should absolutely take it as damage. That's how it started with me
..problems after use sessions that would dissipate after a few days...until eventually the pain just never stopped even years later.

I wouldn't try a hole once even just to do it. It's kinda like crack in the sense that nobody just hits crack once then never does again and move on in their life. I found holing and microdosing of dissos to be the most psychologically addicting drugs...and i have done all drugs.

I'm mean crack is really addicting while your actively using it...but dissos become a craving with you long after the next day even. They really are the perfect drug with a little of every drug type all wrapped into one...with seemingly no hangover or consequences...except for that organ damage that you don't realize until months or years later and it's too late.

I know have pelvic floor dysfunction which resulted from my bladder issues. Also a very unpleasant condition.
 
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Bicycle Tripper

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I'm my experience DCK was the most brutal disso on the bladder. I also used me. K mxe and 3meopcp...but dck flared me the worst by far before I fully quit. I would rank K as the easiest of these on the bladder.

You should absolutely take it as damage. That's how it started with me
..problems after use sessions that would dissipate after a few days...until eventually the pain just never stopped even years later.

I wouldn't try a hole once even just to do it. It's kinda like crack in the sense that nobody just hits crack once then never does again and move on in their life. I found holing and microdosing of dissos to be the most psychologically addicting drugs...and i have done all drugs.

I'm mean crack is really addicting while your actively using it...but dissos become a craving with you long after the next day even. They really are the perfect drug with a little of every drug type all wrapped into one...with seemingly no hangover or consequences...except for that organ damage that you don't realize until months or years later and it's too late.

I know have pelvic floor dysfunction which resulted from my bladder issues. Also a very unpleasant condition.
I appreciate you sharing your experiences and I'm sorry to hear about your health problems.

I did try the DCK on one more occasion but I drank a load of green tea before and during the session and didn't have any of the same symptoms as the first time. I've finished the 200mg DCK I had now and I won't get any more. I did get a gram of K a while back but I've not tried any yet, read lots about rubbish K going around so I'd like to get it tested before I try it. I am concerned by how addictive some users find it though, so maybe I will just bin it.
 

Vastness

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For the record I just indulged in my first moderate disso binge in over 4 months, I don't know the exact dates but before then I was using DCK occasionally but in quite measured doses, like 10mg at a time for a slight mood boost and not holeing. I did go through close to 3 grams of the stuff in maybe 6 months though... I also haven't used any actual ketamine for, probably a year or more now.

My usage pattern was as follows - I dosed 600mg Ketamine one day (3 days ago to be exact) then 400mg 2 days later. Yesterday I also dosed 75mg DCK in the early morning which was a terrible decision for many reasons that I won't bother going into in this thread.

I preloaded with a lot of vitamins, some of which I take daily anyway, but possible ACH-relevant ones were Blueberry extract, cranberry extract, obvious EGCG (green tea extract, 98% polyphenols, 45% EGCG - 725mg total, so 326mg EGCG). I took one per day from day 1 of K indulgence up to today - so 5 days so far. Yesterday I also took 1g D-mannose post DCK dose, I'm still not sure what exactly this is supposed to do but it's for urinary stuff, so...

During my 4 months off, I spent 2 of them 100% sober, 1 of them vaguely sober but with the odd beer or benzo, and 1 of them even less sober with the odd mild stim like flmodafinil and PPAP HCl. During my sober phase, I think midway between months 2 and 3, I did a course of N-Acetyl-Epitalon-Amidate via nasal spray, as well as a course of Thymalin, simultaneously. I think doses were 5mg NA-Epitalon-A and 5mg Thymalin per day (this is off the top of my head and also not accounting for nasal bioavailability - I'll check if anyone wants me to).

Following this, I started a course of BPC-157, again intranasal via nasal spray. I've dragged this out a bit and actually was still administering it during my disso dalliances.

For the most part - I've also been eating well, fairly low carb, not a lot of red meat, veggies as much as I can stomach... not sure how much relevance this has but I mention it for completeness.

Anyway following my brief disso revisits - I experienced zero, and I mean zero bladder disturbances, either during or after. I actually had a hint of bladder sensation at the moment of insufflation of K line 1 - but I reasoned there was no chance it would be having an inflammatory effect so quickly, was most likely once nocebo, and it passed. I also made sure to drink water throughout my dosing - and kept a glass as a spitoon of a sort nearby to spit out the drip when I remembered.

The quality of my trips was also improved. I did not hole on K alone - but I also did not try to, or intend to, preferring to skirt the edges of true hole space. I believe I could have however, if I'd dosed more quickly.

Prior to my 6 month break, even using a small amount of any disso would give me a bladder awareness that sometimes came and went for days after, was anxiety inducing and while not exactly painful - not pleasant. I also experienced increased urge to urinate pretty consistently, and would wake up several times a night to do so. This has also improved during my time off, to the point my nightime urination is down to basically 1 time or even 0, depending how much liquid I drink close to bedtime.

I write this hoping not to lull anyone into a false sense of security. And I DO NOT intend to push my luck. A disso night every 4 to 6 months as I originally planned, in low, controlled doses, or even less... is good enough for me. But primarily I share it to make people aware that anecdotally, in my personal experience at least - bladder issues and permatolerance, likely if they are only in the very early stages, mind - POSSIBLY can be reversed - SOMEWHAT - with a sufficient period of abstinence, and quite possibly, the appropriate choice of supplementation and healing peptides during this period.


IMPORTANT EDIT FOR PUBLIC HEALTH: Unfortunately despite my own proclamation that I was not going to push my luck, my dissociative-addict-tendencies got the better of me and I most definitely did. About 10 days after my reported disso-escapade above from which I believed myself to have emerged relatively unscathed, I ended up dosing around ~100mg DCK over about a day, and since then have begun to experience familiar signs of ACH-induced bladder cystitis, most noticeable for me in the morning, although intermittently at times throughout the day. Additionally, I also became really unwell about a day after, with symptoms primarily manifesting as major fatigue... which brings to mind DCK's reported possible immunosuppresive effects.

So, yes, despite everything I said I lulled MYSELF into a false sense of security, pushed my luck, and here I am. I am somewhat hopeful that I will still recover based just on past experience... but either way, it's clear if I continue to use dissociatives, at least of the ACH kind, I'll be walking a dangerous and possibly just stupid, addiction-rationalised road.
 
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LucidSDreamr

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I appreciate you sharing your experiences and I'm sorry to hear about your health problems.

I did try the DCK on one more occasion but I drank a load of green tea before and during the session and didn't have any of the same symptoms as the first time. I've finished the 200mg DCK I had now and I won't get any more. I did get a gram of K a while back but I've not tried any yet, read lots about rubbish K going around so I'd like to get it tested before I try it. I am concerned by how addictive some users find it though, so maybe I will just bin it.
I know as addicts we don't learn from the experience of others but it will be too late once you've done further damage. I would leave dissos behind for good if you have any symptoms recently. I wish I did.

Also, if you are developing bladder cystitis caffeine (green tea) isn't going to prevent it. It may alter bladder function that let's your bladder operate functionally but it is not going to prevent the damage to the glycosaminoglycan layer of your bladder wall these drugs do, which irreversible.
 

Chris Timothy

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Green tea doesn't work because of the caffeine, it works despite the caffeine. Because in so far the damage is aggravated by inflammation, this is lessened by green tea's various anti-inflammatory compounds.

Why do you think damage to the mucus layer is irreversible? Generally it seems to regenerate just fine, within 24 hours after removal.


Edit: what is considered irreversible though is the fibrosis. The body eventually gives up healing the inflammation and vascular complications the regular way, and dumps collagen onto it as to form scar tissue. The inflammation is submucosal, the problem can only partially be framed as the ketamine corroding, and triggering the shedding of, the most outer layer, which on itself would be reversible.
 
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Chris Timothy

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Though I should be more specific than calling it corrosion. Lately much about what ketamine does to cells has been mapped out. It basically ends up messing with mitochondria and the endoplasmatic reticulum, putting them in overdrive. The resulting apoptosis is a controlled, clean cell death, the immune response of inflammation only gets triggered once the outer layer is breached. To postpone getting at that stage, you can try saving your cells from oxidative stress.

I don't recall whether it's been mentioned in this thread already, but even if it has it bears repeating. Antioxidants in general, not just anti-inflammatory compounds (although antioxidants are anti-inflammatory too), can be supplemented to extend bladder longevity. Vitamin E, lipoic acid, NAC, Q10, etc... can be taken some time before, during, and some time after the trip. Note that they in general cross-potentiate. Also note that constantly taking high doses is a waste, the body is used to (and even depends on) some degree of cellular damage, just not the amount happening during space time, for which the little guys could use some reinforcements.
 

Vastness

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Q10, etc...
Oh yes, I probably should have included above that I have also been taking CoQ10, 300mg, daily during my abstinence stretch, perhaps that also is a significant factor to the apparent reversal of perceptible ACH-induced bladder sensitivity that I seem to have experienced. I don't imagine I'm entirely healed of course - quite possibly, I could induce bladder sensitivity again, more quickly than it took to develop the first time, if I really tried... but I would really encourage anyone with persistent KIC or disso induced cystitis symptoms to try to replicate the peptide and supplementation course I described above during a long period of abstinence.

BPC-157 specifically has been shown to completely heal bladder fistulas in rats - so there is good evidence it might do something good in humans too as far as bladder repair. I'm sure I mention it often but strangely do not see any reports of people actually trying it out that I can remember.
 

Chris Timothy

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Hmm.. fistulas perhaps, and it does seem to work to attenuate acute bladder inflammation. But ketamine already stimulates blood vessel growth, it's part of the pathology, it's part of what gets blood in the bladder. And I'm not sure you want to stimulate extra collagen production once the fibrosis has started. Then again, not exactly sure what to do once the fibrosis has started. NSAIDs help prevent it directly, but they come with their own kidney load apparently. Low doses could therefore be considered I guess, though the kidneys are of course much more important than the bladder lining. And I personally wouldn't call the fibrosis impairing.

What else I have gathered about specific aftercare following bladder inflammation is: omega-3 for the resolvins, baby aspirin at some point (minding the baby kidney load) for the lipoxins, and a low dose of an anticholinergic, for the same reason one tones down the immune response during an allergic reaction.
 

Vastness

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Just to keep everyone informed, I did not heed any of my own advice regarding not pushing my luck and on a second attempted dive in the dissociative sea, this time about 100mg DCK only, I DID again develop bladder symptoms. So whatever recovery I did experience no doubt was a tenuous one. I edited my post above and I'll quote myself for my own convenience and that of everyone else:

IMPORTANT EDIT FOR PUBLIC HEALTH: Unfortunately despite my own proclamation that I was not going to push my luck, my dissociative-addict-tendencies got the better of me and I most definitely did. About 10 days after my reported disso-escapade above from which I believed myself to have emerged relatively unscathed, I ended up dosing around ~100mg DCK over about a day, and since then have begun to experience familiar signs of ACH-induced bladder cystitis, most noticeable for me in the morning, although intermittently at times throughout the day. Additionally, I also became really unwell about a day after, with symptoms primarily manifesting as major fatigue... which brings to mind DCK's reported possible immunosuppresive effects.

So, yes, despite everything I said I lulled MYSELF into a false sense of security, pushed my luck, and here I am. I am somewhat hopeful that I will still recover based just on past experience... but either way, it's clear if I continue to use dissociatives, at least of the ACH kind, I'll be walking a dangerous and possibly just stupid, addiction-rationalised road.
 

LucidSDreamr

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Green tea doesn't work because of the caffeine, it works despite the caffeine. Because in so far the damage is aggravated by inflammation, this is lessened by green tea's various anti-inflammatory compounds.

Why do you think damage to the mucus layer is irreversible? Generally it seems to regenerate just fine, within 24 hours after removal.


Edit: what is considered irreversible though is the fibrosis. The body eventually gives up healing the inflammation and vascular complications the regular way, and dumps collagen onto it as to form scar tissue. The inflammation is submucosal, the problem can only partially be framed as the ketamine corroding, and triggering the shedding of, the most outer layer, which on

I haven't looked into it in some time so I can't say that the GAG layer of the bladder wall does not regenerate by itself. However a major hypothesis for IC is the depletion of the GAG layer and many of the most popular therapies to treat the disease involve attempts to refortify the bladder wall with GAG replacements such as heparin instilliations and instilliation and oral dosing of Elmiron...both GAG like compounds.


I'd have to to more reading to confirm whether the GAG layer is capable of regenerating on its own. Even if it is...if you deplete it you open your self up to more damage and inflammation which will result in the fibrotic damage you mentioned.
 
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