☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

[Hippy Flower Fairy]

K tolerence is a bitch, I've crushed it up and sniffed it, I've cooked it up and sniffed it, I just injected it in my thigh I'm not getting anything from it K tolerence is mean why can't I have the same reaction when I do it every time , why do I have to have tolerance breaks

 

[Ryedog]

I don't want to encourage anyone to use psychedelic drugs, or any other potentially harmful or addicting chemicals, especially alcohol (this is my disclaimer). I've used Ket a number of times, not really to have fun (although it was sooo pleasurable), but more to get to the place of disassociation, and to turn off my DMN loops and ruminations that were still lingering after a couple of years of dealing with and recovering from severe PTSD. I was careful to take some time away from doing Ket again, about two weeks before doing another trip. I new that if I did it too often, I could get to like it a little too much. Also, I didn't want to build up a tolerance. The day after my first trip, my kidneys and my bladder ached a bit, it felt a little like a slight kidney/bladder infection. Not real bad, just achy. A friend told me that it was important to "flush out" while starting to come down. Reason being, whatever the metabolized byproducts were from using Ket, they needed to be diluted and flushed out of your body, especially your kidneys and bladder. He said that's why I felt the symptoms that I did and it made sense to me. So each of the other times, while I was coming down, I either drank lots of water, or lots of "light" beer, or a combination of both and flushed it all out of my bladder and down the drain. I never had any pain, or symptoms again. Last time I used it was about 8 months ago, haven't needed to use Ket since...

 

[polarthedog]

Can dxm cause this?l

Or only arcyclhexamines?

 

[polarthedog]

I recall a paper I read years ago positing the mechanism is nmda antagonism related. This pharmacological action caused an immune cascsde and cytokine release that attacked the bladder causing damage.

So it's not the drug per se causing damage. I found the paper after another user in the neuroscience subforum (I believe he was a physician or scientist) discussed this mechanism then I went digging around on Google scholar and found the paper.

If this is infact true then dxm would also cause problems

Can you give me the link?

 

[Kaleida]

Can dxm cause this?l

Or only arcyclhexamines?

To my knowledge, it has only ever been associated with arylcyclohexylamines.

 

[ecstacylover]

Can you give me the link?

The closest thing I've found is that ketamine raises serum levels of the growth factor BDNF (presumably via NMDAr antagonism?), which acts on nerve endings in the bladder (via NGFR). This causes the nerve bundles there to swell up into what's called a neuroma, and this is thought to cause the bladder pain. See here

There was also a paper in Nature that showed ketamine blocks a calcium channel located in the bladder smooth muscle cells which inhibits their contractility, and this would be what makes it so difficult to piss. Source

Who knows what the root cause is though. There's a lot of talk of inflammation, which would probably increase vascular permeability to BDNF as well. I also wonder if ketamine could directly bind to NGFR, since it's been shown to bind to other growth factor receptors such as TrkB.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Can you give me the link?

The Immunomodulatory Imbalance in Patients with Ketamine Cystitis - PubMed

The pathogenesis of ketamine cystitis (KC) has been recently linked with immune response to patients but the same has not yet been established. Hence, this study aims to propose a possible immune mechanism of irreversible bladder damage caused by KC. A total of 53 KC patients and 21 healthy...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Can dxm cause this?l

Or only arcyclhexamines?

I think dxm could (dxo) becsuse it's a strong nmda antagonist.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Ive noticed a side effect after binging on ket..
Usually i do a binge once every 4-8weeks.
I usually do about 3-5grams spread out over a week or so.

I mostly get minor bladder tension and need to pee often for a few days after the binge.

But recently ive also noticed that my dick feels inflammed and a bit red, some itching etc.
Basicly it feels like my urine gets quite caustic from the high levels of norket?

Anyone noticed anything similar?

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Ive noticed a side effect after binging on ket..
Usually i do a binge once every 4-8weeks.
I usually do about 3-5grams spread out over a week or so.

I mostly get minor bladder tension and need to pee often for a few days after the binge.

But recently ive also noticed that my dick feels inflammed and a bit red, some itching etc.
Basicly it feels like my urine gets quite caustic from the high levels of norket?

Anyone noticed anything similar?

You already have mild bladder cystitis. Whether you get symptoms or not doesn't matter.

Norket doesn't matter imo see above discussion on mechanism of damage

I experienced all of these.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

To my knowledge, it has only ever been associated with arylcyclohexylamines.

I couldn't find scientific studies to back this but my pain started when I only was using 3meoPCP. Which is not an arylcyclohexylamine. But I had used mxe for 2 years prior without pain. Even when I went back to the mxe briefly I felt it less irritating to the bladder than 3meoPCP.

 

[Kaleida]

I couldn't find scientific studies to back this but my pain started when I only was using 3meoPCP. Which is not an arylcyclohexylamine. But I had used mxe for 2 years prior without pain. Even when I went back to the mxe briefly I felt it less irritating to the bladder than 3meoPCP.

Actually, 3-MeO-PCP is an arylcyclohexylamine. I've heard of irritation with it before too.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

8

Actually, 3-MeO-PCP is an arylcyclohexylamine. I've heard of irritation with it before too.

You're correct I mis classified the structure.
It's a cyclohexyl while ketamine is a cyclohexanone and I was kinda requiring the ketone on the cyclohexyl to classify the families in my head

 

[Kaleida]

It's a cyclohexyl while ketamine is a cyclohexanone and I was kinda requiring the ketone on the cyclohexyl to classify the families in my head

I wondered if that might be the case. I've wondered about whether or not that ketone group makes a difference to these problems too but I'm pretty sure I've heard of complaints from people who only used others without it too, like 3-MeO-PCE.

 

[jhjhsdi]

Ive noticed a side effect after binging on ket..
Usually i do a binge once every 4-8weeks.
I usually do about 3-5grams spread out over a week or so.

I mostly get minor bladder tension and need to pee often for a few days after the binge.

But recently ive also noticed that my dick feels inflammed and a bit red, some itching etc.
Basicly it feels like my urine gets quite caustic from the high levels of norket?

Drink more water, 2 cartons of apple juice and 2 cartons of no added sugar blueberry juice (or eat a couple packs of blueberries) when you/at the end of your binge. Assuming you're snorting it, are you spitting out your drip?

Anyone noticed anything similar?

Yes hundreds of people

 

[fastandbulbous]

Just want to say, in response to the paper at the start, claiming to have induced bladder damage in rats; take a look at the mg/kg dose that it took. The equivalent dose in humans would have people in a state of surgical anaesthesia 22 hours a day. Given enough, anything is toxic (salt, sucrose, even water & oxygen). What is important is the 'theraputic ratio (effective dose : toxic dose). With methoxetamine, it has a far better theraputic ratio than ketamine (which was one of the targets in its design).

So, not saying it won't damage your bladder, just you'll need someone to give it to you, as you're effectively dead, 22 hours a day. Strange that, seeing the widespread use of it, there have been no recorded incidents of bladder damage, in humans, since its creation.

The defence rests...

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Just want to say, in response to the paper at the start, claiming to have induced bladder damage in rats; take a look at the mg/kg dose that it took. The equivalent dose in humans would have people in a state of surgical anaesthesia 22 hours a day. Given enough, anything is toxic (salt, sucrose, even water & oxygen). What is important is the 'theraputic ratio (effective dose : toxic dose). With methoxetamine, it has a far better theraputic ratio than ketamine (which was one of the targets in its design).

So, not saying it won't damage your bladder, just you'll need someone to give it to you, as you're effectively dead, 22 hours a day. Strange that, seeing the widespread use of it, there have been no recorded incidents of bladder damage, in humans, since its creation.

The defence rests...

I'm not sure if you're referring to a rat mxe study...or a rat ketamine study.

Mxe is so new and rare in the population the fact that we don't have human studies like we do for ketamine doesn't mean it's safe. And we likely never will since mxe has vanished for good.

I don't think there is any published science on mxe in humans other than saying humans use it and this is its pharmacology.

A paper where they overdose rats does not prove that recreational use in humans doesn't cause damage.

As I've said the arylcyclohexylamine use that damaged my bladder was about 75% mxe, 15% 3meoPCP and less than 10 percent ketamine.

 

[fastandbulbous]

If you think the rat studies with MXE had no relevance to human pharmacology, you can't cite the results to say it's urotoxic in humans.
Also, you must either be predisposed to bladder damage on the basis that I had access to an endless amount of free MXE, courtesy of vendor I was helping (and god did I hammer it), yet really it took really really heavy ketamine use to give me a dose of bladder pain. I'd think 2-FDCK could be bad for bladder damage, as it requires doses similar to ket and lasts about as long (makes me think halogen groups at the 2 position, along with a keto group on the cyclohexyl ring are the most likely to cause damage.

 

[ecstacylover]

At least for the ketamine dose, 30 migs per kig ip 1x/day doesn't seem unreasonable considering that much or more is needed for anesthesia in rats.

The method comprised an i.v. bolus injection of 30 mg/kg for induction and an i.v. continuous infusion of 1.5 mg/kg/min for maintenance of anesthesia. It appears that a higher ketamine concentration at the receptor site was required in the rat as compared to man. -Idvall et al.

It's not surprising that the rats dose per weight will be significantly higher, that's just a consequence of enzymatic activity scaling with surface area and weight scaling with volume. What is surprising is that the standard conversion factor from human to rat doses still drastically underestimates how much ketamine is needed to produce anesthesia in rats.

For my own part when I was abusing MXE I had pain in my pelvic region, severely diminished bladder capacity, and pain after urinating. I was using a lot, but still nowhere near the volume like people who use grams of ketamine daily. This went on for a couple years but thankfully once I stopped it all went away eventually. I was also using a good amount of 3-MeO-PCP and other analogues as well during those times, but I always assumed MXE was the culprit since I was using it the most.

 

[onetwo3four56]

So you could get bladder damage from light use? Why would anyone risk their bladder for I I don't know especially if it can happen with moderate use