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☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

Kaleida

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It's a cyclohexyl while ketamine is a cyclohexanone and I was kinda requiring the ketone on the cyclohexyl to classify the families in my head

I wondered if that might be the case. I've wondered about whether or not that ketone group makes a difference to these problems too but I'm pretty sure I've heard of complaints from people who only used others without it too, like 3-MeO-PCE.
 

jhjhsdi

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Ive noticed a side effect after binging on ket..
Usually i do a binge once every 4-8weeks.
I usually do about 3-5grams spread out over a week or so.

I mostly get minor bladder tension and need to pee often for a few days after the binge.

But recently ive also noticed that my dick feels inflammed and a bit red, some itching etc.
Basicly it feels like my urine gets quite caustic from the high levels of norket?
Drink more water, 2 cartons of apple juice and 2 cartons of no added sugar blueberry juice (or eat a couple packs of blueberries) when you/at the end of your binge. Assuming you're snorting it, are you spitting out your drip?

Anyone noticed anything similar?
Yes hundreds of people
 

fastandbulbous

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Just want to say, in response to the paper at the start, claiming to have induced bladder damage in rats; take a look at the mg/kg dose that it took. The equivalent dose in humans would have people in a state of surgical anaesthesia 22 hours a day. Given enough, anything is toxic (salt, sucrose, even water & oxygen). What is important is the 'theraputic ratio (effective dose : toxic dose). With methoxetamine, it has a far better theraputic ratio than ketamine (which was one of the targets in its design).

So, not saying it won't damage your bladder, just you'll need someone to give it to you, as you're effectively dead, 22 hours a day. Strange that, seeing the widespread use of it, there have been no recorded incidents of bladder damage, in humans, since its creation.

The defence rests...
 

LucidSDreamr

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Just want to say, in response to the paper at the start, claiming to have induced bladder damage in rats; take a look at the mg/kg dose that it took. The equivalent dose in humans would have people in a state of surgical anaesthesia 22 hours a day. Given enough, anything is toxic (salt, sucrose, even water & oxygen). What is important is the 'theraputic ratio (effective dose : toxic dose). With methoxetamine, it has a far better theraputic ratio than ketamine (which was one of the targets in its design).

So, not saying it won't damage your bladder, just you'll need someone to give it to you, as you're effectively dead, 22 hours a day. Strange that, seeing the widespread use of it, there have been no recorded incidents of bladder damage, in humans, since its creation.

The defence rests...


I'm not sure if you're referring to a rat mxe study...or a rat ketamine study.

Mxe is so new and rare in the population the fact that we don't have human studies like we do for ketamine doesn't mean it's safe. And we likely never will since mxe has vanished for good.

I don't think there is any published science on mxe in humans other than saying humans use it and this is its pharmacology.

A paper where they overdose rats does not prove that recreational use in humans doesn't cause damage.

As I've said the arylcyclohexylamine use that damaged my bladder was about 75% mxe, 15% 3meoPCP and less than 10 percent ketamine.
 
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fastandbulbous

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If you think the rat studies with MXE had no relevance to human pharmacology, you can't cite the results to say it's urotoxic in humans.
Also, you must either be predisposed to bladder damage on the basis that I had access to an endless amount of free MXE, courtesy of vendor I was helping (and god did I hammer it), yet really it took really really heavy ketamine use to give me a dose of bladder pain. I'd think 2-FDCK could be bad for bladder damage, as it requires doses similar to ket and lasts about as long (makes me think halogen groups at the 2 position, along with a keto group on the cyclohexyl ring are the most likely to cause damage.
 

ecstacylover

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At least for the ketamine dose, 30 migs per kig ip 1x/day doesn't seem unreasonable considering that much or more is needed for anesthesia in rats.
The method comprised an i.v. bolus injection of 30 mg/kg for induction and an i.v. continuous infusion of 1.5 mg/kg/min for maintenance of anesthesia. It appears that a higher ketamine concentration at the receptor site was required in the rat as compared to man. -Idvall et al.
It's not surprising that the rats dose per weight will be significantly higher, that's just a consequence of enzymatic activity scaling with surface area and weight scaling with volume. What is surprising is that the standard conversion factor from human to rat doses still drastically underestimates how much ketamine is needed to produce anesthesia in rats.

For my own part when I was abusing MXE I had pain in my pelvic region, severely diminished bladder capacity, and pain after urinating. I was using a lot, but still nowhere near the volume like people who use grams of ketamine daily. This went on for a couple years but thankfully once I stopped it all went away eventually. I was also using a good amount of 3-MeO-PCP and other analogues as well during those times, but I always assumed MXE was the culprit since I was using it the most.
 

onetwo3four56

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So you could get bladder damage from light use? Why would anyone risk their bladder for I I don't know especially if it can happen with moderate use
 

LucidSDreamr

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If you think the rat studies with MXE had no relevance to human pharmacology, you can't cite the results to say it's urotoxic in humans.
Also, you must either be predisposed to bladder damage on the basis that I had access to an endless amount of free MXE, courtesy of vendor I was helping (and god did I hammer it), yet really it took really really heavy ketamine use to give me a dose of bladder pain. I'd think 2-FDCK could be bad for bladder damage, as it requires doses similar to ket and lasts about as long (makes me think halogen groups at the 2 position, along with a keto group on the cyclohexyl ring are the most likely to cause damage.
I cited the study to show it damages rat bladders. It was the bulk of my disso use and it damaged my bladder. An above poster also blamed MXE for bladder dysfunction. MXE amd ketamine are similar in pharmacology. People can come to their own conclusions from these pieces of information.

I don't know if what youre implying is that the milligram dosage amount or the chemicals structure of a drug itself is what is responsible but I keep hearing people say that.

I think it's purely based on pharmacogical effect which results in immunological cascades downstream that cause the disease. This mechanism is discussed in the paper incited earlier and I have requoted above.

The structure doesn't matter. The milligram amounts put into the body being less because 3meoPCP is more potent than K doesn't matter. It's the extent of immunological response caused by the drug.

Plenty of science on non drug induced interstitial cystitis suggests similar immune based mechanisms of cystitis. Here's a paper connecting the immunological etiology of the disease and ketamines pharmacology facilitating these immune cascades. Good luck explaining that ketamine analogues like mxe don't do the same thing while having very similar targets and pharmacology, just different structures and far higher potency...knowing that it damages rat bladders and knowing there are reports of users developing the same issues as ketamine.

What is so different about mxes pharmacology from ketamine that would make you think it doesn't do the same thing ketamine does discussed in the above cited Paper?

What I see people saying is almost akin to saying that fentanyl is less likely to overdose someone because you take less milligrams of it than heroin.

Us addicts will tell ourselves anything to convince ourselves a drug is safe.
 
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HearWhalesLaugh

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My kidneys got fucking smashed by 5 days in a week or 2Fdck. I got too damn eager after my long break and now I need to take an even longer one. At least my bag won’t be gone in record time cuz I was sure working on demolishing that shit.

Also I even had green tea extract but didn’t bother looking until the last day when I was already having small bladder symptoms. Luckily my bladder got the least of it this time but I’ve never felt my kidneys like this until now,‘accumulative damage and all that.

I’ll have to take more potent stuff and less
Often, treat it like an every 6 weeks or so treat, but my body officially won’t tolerate ketalogue binges anymore waaaaaaaaa
 

Torresmo

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I sometimes experience difficulty peeing when I am on dissociatives. Could this alone be a symptom of bladder/urethra dammage? I never experienced pain or increase in frequency, so I thought maybe this could psychological, like a "shy bladder*.
 

Bitchniggaz

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I sometimes experience difficulty peeing when I am on dissociatives. Could this alone be a symptom of bladder/urethra dammage? I never experienced pain or increase in frequency, so I thought maybe this could psychological, like a "shy bladder*.

Jag you were probably just to numb to feel your pipes.

First Symptoms is usually more frequent urination and/or slight pain in that area the days after use.

One big issue for alot of abusers is that taking more ket kicks the can ahead so to speak.
 

ecstacylover

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I sometimes experience difficulty peeing when I am on dissociatives.
I used to always get that. I used DXM quite a bit before trying any other dissociatives and it was definitely the worst in that regard, but I doubt it was related to any type of long-term damage at that point.

Back in high school my friend and I would take it and go walk around the mall. One of those times I was in the bathroom trying to go for like 5 minutes and I looked over at some older gent and raised the question: "you ever been so fucked up you can't piss?" He nodded as if he understood but I'm not sure he did. 😂
 
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Bladder issues seem pretty widespread geographically with people around the world being affected. I don't know how to explain that unless the entire worlds supply of ketamine is coming from a single source (not that I know anything about the illicit ketamine supply chain, maybe it does come from a single source).

Most samples on drugs data just show ketamine and leftover precursor whatever that entails.

I'd be inclined to side with the hypothesis that people just take a lot more ketamine these days and that's led to more reports of this kind emerging. Compounded as you said by cheap easy access to the drug but also by the fact that everyone has broadband and smartphones so word spreads faster than 20 years ago. What else can we assume unless something weird and identifiably bladder melting shows up in a lab test?
This is your ketamine precursor A:

1-(2-Chloro-N-methylbenzimidoyl)cyclopentanol​

Seems as if you just need to heat that with a solvent with a high boiling point, with no other chems, and you get k.

That could be where alot of the impurity is coming from, backyard chemists not hearing off enough of the precursor.

Hard to find much info on the precursor though, especially in terms of health effects. They list 100mg of precursor for $750 though, so I don't see how that could ever make sense for anyone.(Alrhough precursor A is in almost every sample on drugsdata, so it must make sense somewhere.)


Edit: Upon further digging, there are 2 other known 'precursors'. One source actually named them impurities, and I haven't researched these other two at all, so I'll use the term precursor lightly here for B and C; they may just be impurities. These are even considered allowed impurities in pharmaceutical grade stuff, but in extremely limited quantities, fractions of a percent. I'm sure the percentage of impurity in illegal synthesis is much greater on almost every occasion. Maybe someone on here will have some extensive knowledge on this specific topic.

Impurity B: (2RS)-2-(2-chlorophenyl)-2-hydroxycyclohexanone

Impurity C: (2-chlorophenyl) (1-hydroxycyclopentyl)methanone

Interestingly enough: neither B, or C have ever been detected in a sample on drugs data; maybe these are cooked off at lower Temps, and precursor A is a little more resiliant, causing larger instance of greater impurity/ bladder issues
 
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Xorkoth

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I used to always get that. I used DXM quite a bit before trying any other dissociatives and it was definitely the worst in that regard, but I doubt it was related to any type of long-term damage at that point.

Back in high school my friend and I would take it and go walk around the mall. One of those times I was in the bathroom trying to go for like 5 minutes and I looked over at some older gent and raised the question: "you ever been so fucked up you can't piss?" He nodded as if he understood but I'm not sure he did. 😂

Interesting, as far as I know, DXM does not share the bladder-damaging properties of ACH dissos. However, pretty much all serotonin reuptake inhibitors and releasers make it harder for me to pee temporarily.
 

ecstacylover

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Interesting, as far as I know, DXM does not share the bladder-damaging properties of ACH dissos. However, pretty much all serotonin reuptake inhibitors and releasers make it harder for me to pee temporarily.
Yea, I always found it a bit odd that the urinary retention I got on DXM was much worse than anything I ever got on ACH's, which are known for being bladder toxic. Generally though DXM is much harder to daily abuse than ACH's though, so I wonder if that has something to do with it.

On the previous page I linked a Nature paper from last year that showed ketamine inhibits bladder contractility by inhibiting an L-type calcium channel (Cav1.2), and they also showed this leads to cystitis by disrupting calcium-mediated transcription. In addition they showed Cav1.2 knockout could mimic ketamine cystitis. Interestingly, all of the effects were independent of NMDAr antagonism.

The reason I mention that is because I thought surely DXM/DXO are structurally different enough from ketamine that it's unlikely they would also inhibit L-type calcium channels, but when I went and looked it up there is evidence that they do! There's a catch though, the effect was pretty weak (IC50 of 100uM), whereas the ketamine paper I mentioned above the IC50 appears to be somewhere around 1uM, so perhaps that could underlie why ketamine is known for being bladder toxic and DXM isn't? Although I'm not sure the comparison is valid considering the papers used quite different methods.
 

NeuroDr

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I’ve been using dissos quite regularly for a long time. Ketamine mostly, and haven’t noticed any issues with my bladder. I really should ease off them. Always low dose to kind of ease anxiety
 
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