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☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

plumbus-nine

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The point about protein might be very valid. During my three years of ACH abuse I was mostly vegetarian (so little protein, funky stuff like plant based fake meat and similar waa hard to my wallet do I exclused them and lived with badic fruits, vegs, noodles, rice, some cheese here ans thete and I did get only very little symptoms of physical damage. Wonder how relevant nutrition reslly is when doing drugs. More thsn just tbe very basics like staying hydrated and hygienic.
 

LucidSDreamr

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I think some people are just more genetically disposed to bladder cystitis...as people can get it without every even trying drugs.

I had a friend who uses ketamine and mxe heavily for 20 years...like on a weekly and usually daily basis for the last 8 yeara of his life (ODed on cocaine). He never had bladder issues.

I on the other hand did not listen to mild symptoms I started getting 5 years into mxe use....and I kept using till I was really fucked
 

blistersinthedark

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The point about protein might be very valid. During my three years of ACH abuse I was mostly vegetarian (so little protein, funky stuff like plant based fake meat and similar waa hard to my wallet do I exclused them and lived with badic fruits, vegs, noodles, rice, some cheese here ans thete and I did get only very little symptoms of physical damage. Wonder how relevant nutrition reslly is when doing drugs. More thsn just tbe very basics like staying hydrated and hygienic.
I stopped eating animal products before I ever even tried K and I've noticed symptoms pointing to physical damage with what would be considered very moderate use (never taken more than 100mg of K in one sitting, never went on a binge), so I doubt there's a connection.
 

Chris Timothy

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The relevant parameter in food must be inflammation. So a vegetarian diet can take it both directions. You might reap the advantages of the loads of antioxidants from the fruit 'n veg. Or you could fall into a typical trap, which is not balancing out your nutrition carefully enough and ending up compensating fatigue through carbs and sugars, which ramps up inflammation and slows recovery.
 

LucidSDreamr

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Agreed that ketamine is worse than the others, but I believe it isn't anything to do with the molecule itself, but rather the MUCH larger doses required.

I know this post is old but just wanted to throw my two cents on this. There was a period near the end where I started having minor bladder issues that would leave after the abuse. During this time I would not get pain from high grade K but much smaller doses of 3meoPCP or DCK would cause pain. 3meoPCP lasts much longer than. K (everything was IV so K really only lasted like 1 hour for me) while 3meoPCP lingers much longer wreaking havoc.

My first worst first severe flare ever was after a night of DXM...but i had already begun very minor symptoms of low volume after 3meoPCP at that time. But that flare only lasted 2 days even though brutal and I didn't realize what I was doing to myself yet.

As I posted a paper a few posts above...I think it's more about how strong the pharmacology of the drug activates the cytokine flood these drugs cause...and has nothing to do with the mass of one drug vs. Another being put into the body.
 

Chris Timothy

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The consensus derived from the anecdotal reporting is that there are indeed a minority of people with allergic reactions, which could be called physical responses relatively unrelated to dosage. Especially since you experience bladder trouble from DXM, which most people don't get at all as long as they remain able to urinate, you fit the category. So I don't think your particular physiology makes for a suitable position from which to generalize.

Considering the cagey reply you gave F&B I don't expect you to consider that position, but others reading might want to. (You made the error that because damage is generally mediated by the immune system, dose is unrelated to harm for both groups. That simply doesn't have to be the case, and you would have to explain away tons of reports as severe delusion, at which point you might as well stop using dissociative harm reduction sources altogether.)
 

LucidSDreamr

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The consensus derived from the anecdotal reporting is that there are indeed a minority of people with allergic reactions, which could be called physical responses relatively unrelated to dosage. Especially since you experience bladder trouble from DXM, which most people don't get at all as long as they remain able to urinate, you fit the category. So I don't think your particular physiology makes for a suitable position from which to generalize.

Considering the cagey reply you gave F&B I don't expect you to consider that position, but others reading might want to. (You made the error that because damage is generally mediated by the immune system, dose is unrelated to harm for both groups. That simply doesn't have to be the case, and you would have to explain away tons of reports as severe delusion, at which point you might as well stop using dissociative harm reduction sources altogether.)
I don't really follow your logic since you provide no biochemical mechanistic rationale or sources and just resort to personal attacks and name calling me as delusional.

But ill spell it all out for you again... but keep rationalizing dissocisitive use and hammer these drugs and find out.for your self.

As ive said dozens of times some people are more succeptible to this than others. But push it as far as you want and find out your limit by doing permanent damage.

I clearly made it a point that my dxm problems were not with a fresh bladder and I already had started to develop mild issues from mxe...dxm made it worse at that point for me.

Again..here is a paper that links the pharmacological mechanism of of ketamine (nmda antagonism) to the immunological response which causes the cystitis. It is the same mechanism for auto immune interstitial cystitis patients that don't touch dissociatives.

I have no proof that other NMDA antagonists (besides mxe...see OP) are an exception to the rule which is what you are implying with zero sources or scientific rationale.

The delusion of people thinking psychedelic drugs are harmless never ceases amaze me.

 
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LucidSDreamr

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The consensus derived from the anecdotal reporting is that there are indeed a minority of people with allergic reactions, which could be called physical responses relatively unrelated to dosage. Especially since you experience bladder trouble from DXM, which most people don't get at all as long as they remain able to urinate, you fit the category. So I don't think your particular physiology makes for a suitable position from which to generalize.

Considering the cagey reply you gave F&B I don't expect you to consider that position, but others reading might want to. (You made the error that because damage is generally mediated by the immune system, dose is unrelated to harm for both groups. That simply doesn't have to be the case, and you would have to explain away tons of reports as severe delusion, at which point you might as well stop using dissociative harm reduction sources altogether.)
And further to my last post..since you seem to want to defend DXM in a vacuum and blame my issues on genetics or arylcyclohexylamine abuse (sorry if I'm putting words into your mouth)...here is a source stating that DXM abuse causes liver damage. I've searched the literature for a direct link between dxm abuse and bladder damage but couldn't find it...only the indirect link of dxm -> nmda antagonism -> immuno response -> bladder damage.

But if youre OK with liver damage please proceed with dxm.

 

Vastness

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DXM is of course an absolutely horrific chemical as far as the human body's physiology is concerned. I won't bother to cite any sources because, 1) I'm drunk, and 2) I thought it was pretty much common knowledge, honestly. That said - as far as bladder (and kidney, organ damage, OK, liver is an organ, point conceded before I've made it) I was under the impression that it is arylcyclohexylamines that are the sole culprit as far as disproportionate damage, or, perhaps, not widely acknowledged or recognised damage that is inseparable from the subjective effects (like... the damage to the BBB [Blood Brain Barrier] that is essentially common knowledge and undecouplable from the subjective effects of inhalants). DXM may well be harmful but in a fairly different way, and the liver is a highly regenerative organ - whereas the bladder and kidneys are not. Equally - I am not personally aware of any link between the diarylethylamines ('phenidines? think I got the chemical nomenclature right..) and the same kind of profile of bladder and kidney, possibly other organ damage as arylcyclohexylamines.

Just to chime in on my previous comments about protein intake - of course, I cannot be 100% sure that the macronutrient of protein itself was the culprit of exacerbated symptoms from ACH dissos, it could have been the type of protein, whatever other myriad variants of micronutrient diets that could be put together that included a high volume of protein that was exacerbating. I sent some blood test results and macronutrient stats to a fitness professional friend of mine (NOT a healthcare professional, which obviously is important) and he basically laughed at them and said they all looked fine, so.... I'd say "make of that what you will" but in fact I'll say the glaringly obvious interpretation is just that the normative range of biomarkers is not easily correlated with actually persistent, life altering symptoms, and I make that assessment while acknowledging that my own symptoms were on the lower end of that scale. But obviously any bladder sensation at all outside the normal realm of, well, needing to empty it, as most of us humans have known since we were children, should be considered to be one of those persistent symptoms.

Finally - on the "magnitude of molecule" issue... while I will say that from my personal experience and apparent knowledge, as of this moment, I think that ACHs out of all the disso molecular classes are almost undeniably the "most damaging" one, I am also not convinced that it is simply an issue of high dosage. My evidence for this is purely anecdotal however, but of course, the state of human society permits little better so I'll share it nonetheless. 2F-DCK to me, feels actually kinder to the bladder, and, by extension the body (although perhaps only because the bladder is the most obviously and primarily detectable vulnerability to these NMDA antagonising molecules) despite it being less potent and requiring higher doses than regular K. The others, high potency ACHs, of which I've tried a shit ton by now... it's a crapshoot, I cannot say definitively that I can identify any pattern but I can say that some very high potency ACHs do still seem to cause bladder sensations, almost proportionally to the subjective effects by which I am using K as a metric.

This is all very vague, unscientific, of course, but, again, I share my experience in the hope that it is useful to others before the capacity of the human species to actually study this properly and figure out what is going on catches up to the need for this to happen.
 

LucidSDreamr

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DXM is of course an absolutely horrific chemical as far as the human body's physiology is concerned. I won't bother to cite any sources because, 1) I'm drunk, and 2) I thought it was pretty much common knowledge, honestly. That said - as far as bladder (and kidney, organ damage, OK, liver is an organ, point conceded before I've made it) I was under the impression that it is arylcyclohexylamines that are the sole culprit as far as disproportionate damage, or, perhaps, not widely acknowledged or recognised damage that is inseparable from the subjective effects (like... the damage to the BBB [Blood Brain Barrier] that is essentially common knowledge and undecouplable from the subjective effects of inhalants). DXM may well be harmful but in a fairly different way, and the liver is a highly regenerative organ - whereas the bladder and kidneys are not. Equally - I am not personally aware of any link between the diarylethylamines ('phenidines? think I got the chemical nomenclature right..) and the same kind of profile of bladder and kidney, possibly other organ damage as arylcyclohexylamines.

Just to chime in on my previous comments about protein intake - of course, I cannot be 100% sure that the macronutrient of protein itself was the culprit of exacerbated symptoms from ACH dissos, it could have been the type of protein, whatever other myriad variants of micronutrient diets that could be put together that included a high volume of protein that was exacerbating. I sent some blood test results and macronutrient stats to a fitness professional friend of mine (NOT a healthcare professional, which obviously is important) and he basically laughed at them and said they all looked fine, so.... I'd say "make of that what you will" but in fact I'll say the glaringly obvious interpretation is just that the normative range of biomarkers is not easily correlated with actually persistent, life altering symptoms, and I make that assessment while acknowledging that my own symptoms were on the lower end of that scale. But obviously any bladder sensation at all outside the normal realm of, well, needing to empty it, as most of us humans have known since we were children, should be considered to be one of those persistent symptoms.

Finally - on the "magnitude of molecule" issue... while I will say that from my personal experience and apparent knowledge, as of this moment, I think that ACHs out of all the disso molecular classes are almost undeniably the "most damaging" one, I am also not convinced that it is simply an issue of high dosage. My evidence for this is purely anecdotal however, but of course, the state of human society permits little better so I'll share it nonetheless. 2F-DCK to me, feels actually kinder to the bladder, and, by extension the body (although perhaps only because the bladder is the most obviously and primarily detectable vulnerability to these NMDA antagonising molecules) despite it being less potent and requiring higher doses than regular K. The others, high potency ACHs, of which I've tried a shit ton by now... it's a crapshoot, I cannot say definitively that I can identify any pattern but I can say that some very high potency ACHs do still seem to cause bladder sensations, almost proportionally to the subjective effects by which I am using K as a metric.

This is all very vague, unscientific, of course, but, again, I share my experience in the hope that it is useful to others before the capacity of the human species to actually study this properly and figure out what is going on catches up to the need for this to happen.
I agree with your theory that it's not purely about mass of analogue put into the body but potency (or possibly half life) of the drug...or some unknown variable in the nastier analogues. Ie a small amount of a potent drug can do as much damage as a large amount of less potent ketamine.


There is no research of analogues other than mxe on the organs/bladder...so this is based off my anecdotal experiences with these class of drugs.

Pcp since it's so old and widely used may have some research on it but I'll have to search later re pcp.

My bladder hurts right now. 5 years since I've touched these beautiful evil drugs.

And while you point out that liver damage may be recoverable it seems much more dangerous and potentially lethal or life quality destroying vs bladder damage. Like my bladder just hurts but it's not like my body is full if toxins because my liver can't metabolize properly. If I had to choose between liver or bladder damage I'd choose bladder.

I do remember my bladder really rejecting dxm once it had started having issues and that the drug had a diruetic effect which the arylcyclohexylamines also gave me, so there is some effects on bladder or urinary function whether or not dxm on its own can cause cystitis.
 
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Mjäll

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I know this post is old but just wanted to throw my two cents on this. There was a period near the end where I started having minor bladder issues that would leave after the abuse. During this time I would not get pain from high grade K but much smaller doses of 3meoPCP or DCK would cause pain. 3meoPCP lasts much longer than. K (everything was IV so K really only lasted like 1 hour for me) while 3meoPCP lingers much longer wreaking havoc.

My first worst first severe flare ever was after a night of DXM...but i had already begun very minor symptoms of low volume after 3meoPCP at that time. But that flare only lasted 2 days even though brutal and I didn't realize what I was doing to myself yet.

As I posted a paper a few posts above...I think it's more about how strong the pharmacology of the drug activates the cytokine flood these drugs cause...and has nothing to do with the mass of one drug vs. Another being put into the body.

I think you may be right. I don't know about the cytokine flood or whatever the specific mechanism would be, but i have felt immunomodulatory activity in my body from all ACH dissociatives i've tried. I believe this may have something to do with the antidepressant effect as well. A very pleasant and wholesome feeling effect, i must say. Anti-inflammatory or anti-microbial would be my guess. And then come the usual dissociative fuelled speculations, like being cleansed of bad spirits or toxic emotions manifested as subtle infections. This drug class is very complex in regards to systemic activity, but then again i suspect others may be too. Dissociatives are actually ideal in their mental effects for facilitating feeling out stuff like this in the body.

Anyway this immunological activity is probably a very good reason to use these drugs very sparingly, not just for the urinary issues in particular.
 
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Madrus

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For avoiding damage with occasional-use,
Is drinking grean tea sufficient, or should I buy this "green tea epigallocatechin gallate (ECGC)"?
 

Cut_o-dsmt_3-ho-pce

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I have had a soft spot in my heart for dissos and thought I had been using them responsibility over the past 6 years.

My first usage was 2009/2010 when a friend in college was stealing ketamine/Xylazine mix that was used to sedate mice before live dissections. Dry it off the plate and away we go. I watched it get stolen from the bottle in the lab and he could only take a couple hundred milligrams at once. Perhaps a couple hundred milligrams snorted over a few times, never had a hole off this material. I also tried MXE 2010/2011 (whenever it came out) once or twice. Snorted it, which after trying it many years after it was banned, oral was far superior.

Next set of usage was getting 5g off the first Bitcoin/dnm in 2012 or so. They had everything on there. Believe I ordered S+. Did a hole dose every couple months and took a couple years to work through the material.

My current usage was back to RC's in 2016/2017, and thought psychedelics were cool, but what something like MXE. I ordered O-PCE and had a ball of a time. I remember going to an eclipse festival in 2017 and taking 10mg (low tolerance, lol) and it being too much. Their weren't cops at the festival, and there so many people, it was easy to blend in. During 2017 to 2021 (and to now, explanation below), I ended up ordering more or less all the ACH's out there (except for FXE, 3-me-pcpy, 3-me-pce, and the ones offered when their was innovative science happening). I used these about ~1 a month at the middle and high end of the range with generally one dose at a time. O-pce was my favorite. Never real bladder issues. Peeing funny while on them, and perhaps an odd/good pee once or twice after I woke up. I had one experience in 2021 for my birthday where I snorted 200/300mg (not holing/just chilling doses) every once in a while over a two nights period. I got some minor cramps in my bladder area that cleared up in a day or so. If I had to estimate my usage in this current era of usage, I would say the following over the last 5 to 6 years.

Drug;average dose;times used
O-pce;30mg:40
K;25/75mg;10
2F-DCK;175mg;10
3-meo-pcp;15mg;10
DMXE;80mg;10
MXiPr;50mg;7
3-ho-pcp;7mg;7
MXPr;60mg;5
3-meo-pce;20mg;5
MXE;50mg;3
3-me-pcp;8mg;3
3-ho-pce;15mg;3
O-pcm;45mg;2

In 2021 I was still using them once a month. I had ordered o-dsmt and tried a gram and liked it. In September 2021 I picked up 10 grams. I noted Drugs data link 1and Drugs data link 2 had two reports (presumably of my batch) on odsmt having tiny amounts of 3-ho-pce in it. I thought nothing of the time as the amounts being small. I ended up working into dosing odsmt every 3 to 5 days at an average of ~100mg at a time. Over the 9 month period, the past couple months(2 to 4?)I have been peeing frequently. Maybe 3 or 4 times at work and 5 to 10 times before bed (really a lot/often to feel that my bladder was constantly empty since easy access to the toliet). I attributed it to coffee at work making me pee a bunch, but the constant peeing after work made me look deeper. I started to put the pieces of ach abuse together causing lots of bladder problems which to lead me to this thread.

On Friday, it all clicked. It was the odsmt with 3-ho-pce doing it. Over the 9 months I consumed ~7 grams of that material, with perhaps equates to 1 to 5mg ever odsmt dose and 75mg to 350mg total.

I have done some excerise over the past 9 months, not had a great sleep schedule, smoked, ate frozen packaged food, probably should be drinking more water, and have a stressful job; overall to say not totally taking care of myself the best, but am a healthy weight for one, as a plus thing.

I threw the odsmt out. Going to see what no coffee does during the day, obstain for dissos for a solid amount of time and see how I improve.

Overalls, the side effects have, are a minor dribble or two after peeing, increased peeing frequency, maybe sligltly lower bladder capacity, and a very occasionally a 1/10 bladder pain problem. Honestly a bit minor all things considered. I am hopefully, that I most return to normal, but we'll see.

Sucks I wasted my lifetime dissos usage on low doses of 3-ho-pce as a cut. (Theory that you can only use these a set number of times where big doses/binges count towards more than small infrequently use, but totally usesage count.)
 

Cut_o-dsmt_3-ho-pce

Greenlighter
Joined
Jun 12, 2022
Messages
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I have had a soft spot in my heart for dissos and thought I had been using them responsibility over the past 6 years.

My first usage was 2009/2010 when a friend in college was stealing ketamine/Xylazine mix that was used to sedate mice before live dissections. Dry it off the plate and away we go. I watched it get stolen from the bottle in the lab and he could only take a couple hundred milligrams at once. Perhaps a couple hundred milligrams snorted over a few times, never had a hole off this material. I also tried MXE 2010/2011 (whenever it came out) once or twice. Snorted it, which after trying it many years after it was banned, oral was far superior.

Next set of usage was getting 5g off the first Bitcoin/dnm in 2012 or so. They had everything on there. Believe I ordered S+. Did a hole dose every couple months and took a couple years to work through the material.

My current usage was back to RC's in 2016/2017, and thought psychedelics were cool, but what something like MXE. I ordered O-PCE and had a ball of a time. I remember going to an eclipse festival in 2017 and taking 10mg (low tolerance, lol) and it being too much. Their weren't cops at the festival, and there so many people, it was easy to blend in. During 2017 to 2021 (and to now, explanation below), I ended up ordering more or less all the ACH's out there (except for FXE, 3-me-pcpy, 3-me-pce, and the ones offered when their was innovative science happening). I used these about ~1 a month at the middle and high end of the range with generally one dose at a time. O-pce was my favorite. Never real bladder issues. Peeing funny while on them, and perhaps an odd/good pee once or twice after I woke up. I had one experience in 2021 for my birthday where I snorted 200/300mg (not holing/just chilling doses) every once in a while over a two nights period. I got some minor cramps in my bladder area that cleared up in a day or so. If I had to estimate my usage in this current era of usage, I would say the following over the last 5 to 6 years.

Drug;average dose;times used
O-pce;30mg:40
K;25/75mg;10
2F-DCK;175mg;10
3-meo-pcp;15mg;10
DMXE;80mg;10
MXiPr;50mg;7
3-ho-pcp;7mg;7
MXPr;60mg;5
3-meo-pce;20mg;5
MXE;50mg;3
3-me-pcp;8mg;3
3-ho-pce;15mg;3
O-pcm;45mg;2

In 2021 I was still using them once a month. I had ordered o-dsmt and tried a gram and liked it. In September 2021 I picked up 10 grams. I noted Drugs data link 1and Drugs data link 2 had two reports (presumably of my batch) on odsmt having tiny amounts of 3-ho-pce in it. I thought nothing of the time as the amounts being small. I ended up working into dosing odsmt every 3 to 5 days at an average of ~100mg at a time. Over the 9 month period, the past couple months(2 to 4?)I have been peeing frequently. Maybe 3 or 4 times at work and 5 to 10 times before bed (really a lot/often to feel that my bladder was constantly empty since easy access to the toliet). I attributed it to coffee at work making me pee a bunch, but the constant peeing after work made me look deeper. I started to put the pieces of ach abuse together causing lots of bladder problems which to lead me to this thread.

On Friday, it all clicked. It was the odsmt with 3-ho-pce doing it. Over the 9 months I consumed ~7 grams of that material, with perhaps equates to 1 to 5mg ever odsmt dose and 75mg to 350mg total.

I have done some excerise over the past 9 months, not had a great sleep schedule, smoked, ate frozen packaged food, probably should be drinking more water, and have a stressful job; overall to say not totally taking care of myself the best, but am a healthy weight for one, as a plus thing.

I threw the odsmt out. Going to see what no coffee does during the day, obstain for dissos for a solid amount of time and see how I improve.

Overalls, the side effects have, are a minor dribble or two after peeing, increased peeing frequency, maybe sligltly lower bladder capacity, and a very occasionally a 1/10 bladder pain problem. Honestly a bit minor all things considered. I am hopefully, that I most return to normal, but we'll see.

Sucks I wasted my lifetime dissos usage on low doses of 3-ho-pce as a cut. (Theory that you can only use these a set number of times where big doses/binges count towards more than small infrequently use, but totally usesage count.)

Update.

There may have been some static type pain right before this post; I had taken 20mg of o-pce and 5mg of 3-me-pcp about a week apart. This pain, if there, went away real quick, probably before this post and only lasting a couple days.

As I was bit down on myself, I was taking some oral morphine solution to ignore the mindset I was in, not to help with the pain because the pain wasn't really there. During one of these nights, I thought I should help my body and take some vitamins. The one I had was vitamin d.

Withing 1 to 2 hours of taking the vitamin d, a sudden change over 30 minutes was noticed in my bladder; I suddenly no longer had an incredible urge to pee every 15 to 45 minutes!

Researching online, I found this pudmed article discussing overactive bladder and vitamin d link. My original post talks about how I wasn't doing my body too good and the PNW has been a bit cloudy/longer spring than the past couple years. I go outside at work sometimes, but only briefly and when it isn't raining.

Overall, my bladder/peeing feels significantly better. I do feel perhaps I pee a bit more than normal and it feels a tiny bit different down there. If I had to guess, 90 percent better than year or two ago, but maybe not as good as when I first started using dissos once a month.

Perhaps I caused some damage that may heal over months and year. Perhaps I got use to peeing frequently and need to retrain my bladder a bit to hold/stretch more over the coming months. I need to keep eating vitamins for sure. I did void this morning after sleeping 10 hours and it had to be 450 to 550 ml (filled up a 16 ounce cup then some).

I feel so much better that the situation is better than what I thought and that vitamin d helped so much.

Condolences to the people that are truly struggling, my overactive bladder situation was not fun, and I can't imagine having to live the rest of my life like that.
 
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