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☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

GearoftheYear

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@Survived Abortion, thank you for posting all that stuff, that is very interesting indeed.

Could you elaborate which side effects you mean? Bladder feelings? Or urinary retention, perhaps? Is it supposed to counter the actual damage in some way...? Or just the feelings?

Just curious as I had a somewhat harebrained idea a while back to drink diuretics while I was doing ketamine such as caffeine, or beer, to potentially empty my bladder more often and thus protect against damage. I felt at the time that maybe it helped but in retrospect this was probably just placebo.

Anyway personally now I always find beer ruins that lucid psychedelic edge I like to feel when doing ketamine, but it probably would help with urinary retention.

For alcohol, I don't think it's a great idea which is why I didn't go into it. It's certainly not a wise combo and has led to many deaths due to risk of vomiting. But there does seem to be something about it in small quantities to hydrate and also break down the ketamine so it passes easier. I would not be using it throughout the binge to help piss. Agree it also kills the experience.

I find infrequent doses of coffee, decaffeinated tea and the occasional yogurt/pro-biotic drink sit better with me than alcohol. Cranberry is also good in very small amounts, big amounts cause kidney stress if taking ketamine at the same time for me. Magnesium helps prior-to/tail-end/post binge.

You can khole standing up and move around. I wouldn't say you'd pee in a hole - I've never wet myself on ketamine but many others do when mixing with alcohol and low tolerance. I find you can nearly go in and out of holes like a tightrope if you use sensory deprivation and music too.

If you need to go to the toilet you'll easily snap out of the hole in 10-15 mins max and be able to go. A redose shortly after induces the hole for me again. If I can comfortably sit down in a hole I will, but if I can't I can stand and just not move. Some of my most intense k holes have been standing frozen at a rave and much more visual. Although if you IM .5-1g with no tolerance you're going down due to anesthetize/blackout and will possibly hit your head on the way down.

I never found much benefit going above 200-300mg on IM ketamine within a single dose time frame. It causes arrhythmia and other discomforts. Insufflated you can sniff grams but it just causes unnecessary tolerance and damage - I miss the cheap ketamine of that time but not the 'party' abuse. 2c roulette and heroic acid doses were much safer. ;)

Any lectures on bladder damage tends to refer to ketamine irritating the lining, I imagine this is due to dehydration and the ketamine itself recrystallizing. I've never found a fix for good ketamine being 'dry' other than using atleast 1ml/80-100mg and keeping hydrated. The rocky batches are particularly harsh and need more water.

Cooking k also makes it easier on the nose which helps it absorb/passes better. As does crushing. It should go to a flour consistency. Doing either and staying hydrated works wonders for a one off. Supplementing in other ways makes a big difference for habitual use. I'm not a fan of vanilla essence for the same effect, it hurts the kidneys.

I found the hole on MXE even more functional at massive doses. O-PCE/MXPr completely knocked me down.
 
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THECATINTHEHAT

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I dont have any specific detail to add to this thread, I just want to chip in and encourage people to take the threat of bladder damage seriously. I grew up surrounded by daily ketamine users (and was one myself) and know two people that had to have a bladder transplant before the age of 25 through ketamine abuse. I dont use anymore but it's still common in certain of my friendship circles.

It was absolutely rife in the part of the uk I grew up in and on the rave scene in the uk in the 00's and it was this explosion of use that led to the emergence of bladder damage and its recognition in the medical community. People were using as much as five grams a day and more for years on end because it was so cheap. Some of my close friends have permanent damage, I seem to be ok although I did have issues at points and do have a somewhat weak bladder now.

Damage doesnt occur overnight, you need to be using large doses over a long period of time. It first appears as the sensation of always needing to go to the toilet and never actually being able to go properly, which gets increasingly painful. After this you'll move on to pissing out blood and chunks of your bladder lining. Eventually the scar tissue will stop your bladder from being elastic and it wont be able to fill properly.

One of the biggest problems is that the pain it causes can be intense and of course if you're addicted to ketamine then there's an obvious answer to that pain.....more ketamine of course. The end of this road is a grim one, treat k with respect or it will fuck your shit up.
 

hydroazuanacaine

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do ROAs other than oral actually mitigate this at all? isn’t it excreted through your urine no matter how you consume it?
 

PYTH

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do ROAs other than oral actually mitigate this at all? isn’t it excreted through your urine no matter how you consume it?
More or less, though there are thoughts about a more harmful metabolite being produced when ketamine is processed through the GI tract.
 
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AutoTripper

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More or less, though there are thoughts about a more harmful metabolite being produced when ketamine is processed through the GI tract.

One of the fun anecdotes floating around after Genesis P-Orridge's recent passing are the 1000-2000 doses of pharmaceutical ketamine they say they IM'd to absolutley no ill effect, mostly in the span of a couple years. They were prone to hyperbole and self-mythologizing, however, so who really knows. They were fond of asserting that ketamine had no negative health effects whatsoever and also that by crystallizing liquid ketamine its character was inherently changed, negatively 🤷‍♂️🤔
I know that I was told explicitly, when I used pharma Ket a lot 2003-2005, not to swallow it after insufflation because the Ketamine turns to acid in the stomach.

But also, from long term Lyme Disease and multiple chronic, recurring, respiratory infdctions- the bladder actually serves as a clearing route for infections from the sinuses.

So regarding Ket bladder problems, is it possibly related to the common route of administration, aka sinuses?

Or the inevitable drug reaching the intestines, turning to acid? And the pissible harmful metabolite? Very plausible anyhow.

Just pondering, going on what you say here.

I know very little of Ketamine. I just abused it in those few years, but mostly as an accompaniment to full on psychedellic binges, good clean E's, acid and shrooms.

Wild and wicked times.

I was moderate enough. Like 2 grams over a weekend sess, frequent midweek.

Never did more than half a gram in one line. But I knew people who snorted gram lines all day long- 12 in fact, gram lines that is.
 

GearoftheYear

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People were using as much as five grams a day and more for years on end because it was so cheap. Some of my close friends have permanent damage, I seem to be ok although I did have issues at points and do have a somewhat weak bladder now.

Damage doesnt occur overnight, you need to be using large doses over a long period of time. It first appears as the sensation of always needing to go to the toilet and never actually being able to go properly, which gets increasingly painful.

This seems to be the real trend for bladder damage. Daily use with no breaks. I wouldn't recommend binging for more than 3 days. It's rare these days to have it available enough to over a week now for me though.

I think having it regulated could make some difference here. If I had a constant k supply my bladder would be destroyed. Having supply slightly restricted really helps give the opportunity for my insides to clean themselves out and heal.
 

LucidSDreamr

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anyone see this thread on reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/fzmqf3
sounds like a bold claim, "prevents" is such a strong word without any modifiers.

personally, i'd never heard of egcg

green tea has caffiene. If you already have any bladder issues or damage you want to stay far far away from caffiened (and all other stims). As we all know, academic science is often completely irreproducible and often falsified by students and professors desperate to publish, so i wouldn't go snorting tons of K and drinking green tea thinking you will be safe.


Just to give an update on my bladder issues, i was doing pretty good for a while but had a bad flare that cause me to be hospitilized a couple of weeks ago. This is 3 years post bladder damage. EXTREME pain like i had never felt. 15 out of 10, far worse than back surgery. I was crying on the floor of the examination room and in danger of killing myself. All i recived was 5 mg of oxycodone and a pat on the back, and i have no recorded history of drug abuse or crimainal record and am a doctor. I had no drugs whatsoever in my system at the time of entering the hospital either....this is how pain is dealt with these days.

I would describe the pain as a searing hot metal rod, inserted through the penis, into the bladder, and stabbing and ripping up the inside of the bladder.

i left the hospital because they couldn't do anything and refused to treat pain, and no urologist with that hospital could even see me. My wife drove me to a private practice doctor I trust while i was crying, he was closed but saw me anyways and presribed me a bottle of 8 mg hydromorphone. I had zero opioid tolerence at the time so 8-12 mg was able to bring the pain down to a non-kill yourself level. Got to the urologist the next day and he said there was a fair amount of blood in my urine and injected a bunch of steroid/herarin/lidocaine into my bladder via catheter up my penis (not fun!)...this knocked the pain down to almost nothing for a couple weeks and now i've got minor pain again.

i've said this before...a 5 year daily crack and IV heroin addiction did nowhere near the damage to my live that causual ketamine use did. Of course, it did far more damage to my wallet than K ;)...but we'll see. I've spent thousands out of pocket in the past three years on medical bills for my bladder and i have very good insurance. I would estimate around 5-8 K.
 
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Vastness

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Thanks for the update @LucidSDreamer. Sounds brutal, for sure... Out of curiousity have you ever looked into intravesical hyaluronic acid as a treatment? I'm sure this has been mentioned in this thread before - and I'm not sure what the process would be for getting this done, or if it would even be possible to get a doctor to do it given the limited research on it - but I ask just as, since you're already getting things adminstered directly into the bladder via catheter, maybe it would not be too much of a leap to try a similar treatment to the one described here: Complete reversal of the clinical symptoms and image morphology of ketamine cystitis after intravesical hyaluronic acid instillation: A case report.


IIRC @Vastness has tried it with K and said it changed the character of the experience for them though
I think it was @Chris Timothy who said it changed the character of the experience - I didn't personally notice any subjective difference in the experience (as far as I remember anyway).

sounds like a bold claim, "prevents" is such a strong word without any modifiers.
"Prevents" is indeed a strong word, perhaps too strong, IMO. "Reduces" would perhaps be better, since EGCG does not completely block the harmful effects, but there does appear to be good indication that it can reduce them somewhat - even significantly, perhaps, but current research into this is only done on rats.
 

Bare_head

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use ket regularly? it fucks ur blader up alot more than u think when taking it, i had hard time passig urine on that stuff . its good stuff though, be careful when taking 2 gram plus a day for regular days
 

Bare_head

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i swear if i knew this earlier i would of been taking green tea with my ketamine :D i love the s ismomer, for some reason it way way more effective :D
 

G_Chem

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So I’ve gotta say I feel like I’m stuck... Since this thread I’ve essentially lowered and now basically quit the drug except for very odd occasions. Before I was using small doses 1-2 times a month for the AD effects.

I’m really starting to miss how life felt with the odd dose of K in my life.

My thoughts are, will different ROA’s give different bladder damage results? The dosages vary greatly between insufflated and IV, I’m curious if less damage would be dealt to my poor bladder if I were to IV a similar amount effects wise to insufflated.

I have no worries of this becoming a problem, I’ve IV’ed Ketamine a few times in the past, I just want to get the same 1-2 week long AD effects with minimal damage.

-GC
 

TripSitterNZ

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So I’ve gotta say I feel like I’m stuck... Since this thread I’ve essentially lowered and now basically quit the drug except for very odd occasions. Before I was using small doses 1-2 times a month for the AD effects.

I’m really starting to miss how life felt with the odd dose of K in my life.

My thoughts are, will different ROA’s give different bladder damage results? The dosages vary greatly between insufflated and IV, I’m curious if less damage would be dealt to my poor bladder if I were to IV a similar amount effects wise to insufflated.

I have no worries of this becoming a problem, I’ve IV’ed Ketamine a few times in the past, I just want to get the same 1-2 week long AD effects with minimal damage.

-GC
even IV results in bladder damage thats the limiting factor in long term depression treatment in trials. Im sure you will be fine with doing small ket dose once a month since they in trials they do once a month k hole IV flood dose on people for depression. Ket bladder damage seems to come from people just eating shit loads weekly or daily.
 

jhjhsdi

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@LucidSDreamr

"I would describe the pain as a searing hot metal rod, inserted through the penis, into the bladder, and stabbing and ripping up the inside of the bladder."

Mate I feel your pain. That's a good description it's something between that and getting a tattoo on the inside of your dick/up to the Gooch constantly. I had this for ages which ended up with me being in hospital for 3 days then rehab for a month on bladder meds and hardcore antibiotics. I was also pissing out bright green puss and black/dark red blood cloods every 15/20 mins that felt like red hot lumps of glass. I don't know how I even have a bladder/urinary tract left 🙏

I was using 10-20g+ a day every day for a LONG time prior, mind☠💀👎
 

Vastness

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it's something between that and getting a tattoo on the inside of your dick/up to the Gooch constantly. I had this for ages which ended up with me being in hospital for 3 days then rehab for a month on bladder meds and hardcore antibiotics. I was also pissing out bright green puss and black/dark red blood cloods every 15/20 mins that felt like red hot lumps of glass. I don't know how I even have a bladder/urinary tract left 🙏
Christ. That sounds horrific.

My thoughts are, will different ROA’s give different bladder damage results? The dosages vary greatly between insufflated and IV, I’m curious if less damage would be dealt to my poor bladder if I were to IV a similar amount effects wise to insufflated.
IMO, there is sufficient evidence for at least a plausible theory that different ROAs do have differences in the likelihood of bladder damage, with a good proportion of the bladder damage from nasal administration being a result of secondary oral ingestion resulting in a higher proportion of norketamine from first pass metabolism.

I had a go crunching the bioavailability numbers a few pages back if you're interested in having a read - https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...dder-organ-damage.874283/page-5#post-14648956 - before doing this I had been a bit skeptical that there would be any significant difference.

Just anecdotally - I will note that since reducing my ketamine usage a lot I have sparingly allowed myself to go back to it a few times. Just recently a few days ago I went through 2g in 2 days - this time I was militant about spitting out the drip into a spit cup I had nearby, literally any taste or indication of the drip starting I would spit as much saliva as possible into the cup, whenever I was conscious enough to do so.

I was also militant about staying hydrated. Additionally I took a supplement of 750g decaffeinated green tea extract, standardised to 98% polyphenols, 45% EGCG - so ~337.5mg EGCG. I took it once each day I used ketamine, and plan to continue taking it for at least a week after just in case. Additionally I took 1g D-mannose prior to beginning the session and every hour for the duration, give or take. I'm not actually certain what D-mannose is supposed to do but it's supposed to be good for your bladder and for managing symptoms of UTI and suchlike...

Again this is purely anecdotal but it seemed like it made a definite difference, for the first time in a while I honestly did not get any of that "gummed up insides" and increased bladder awareness sensation. I have tried spitting out the drip before but this was the first time I was really strict with myself about it instead of doing it half assed.

The only downside to my session was that I didn't get nearly as deep as I was hoping, I am still not sure why that is but I was wondering if a good portion of the effects I usually get during a session were down to unintentional oral ingestion... more experimentation is needed, which will have to be no sooner than a month from now though, maybe 2. It could be a permatolerance that has finally caught up with me... at one point I literally insufflated 250mg as quickly as possible and used "The @jhjhsdi Method", ie lying on your stomach with your head hanging off the edge of a bed to avoid any drip - and was back to walking around within 20 minutes or so... but this was after having used about the same amount but more slowly... it does seem that K has an immediate tolerance-inducing effect for me where if I don't hole very early in the session it's almost impossible to after a while no matter how huge the dose.

In regards to bladder effects though - it's worth noting I have cut down a lot, I've probably used 3g in the past 6 months, including my recent 2g session, so that no doubt also played a part, and again this is all purely anecdotal and I've been lucky enough to avoid the worst of the bladder damage so far, so no-one should be lulled into a false sense of security. Just reporting my own experiences, as ever.
 

jhjhsdi

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@Vastness yes it was horrific beyond description tbh. If I hadn't ended up in rehab I would have lost my bladder. I had to be honest about my use and amounts I was using with the specialists in hospital and they said if i didn't stop I had literally 2 weeks to a month before my bladder would have to come out.

Also, permatolerance is cunt.

Big up for 'the jhjhsdi Method' 😁 my tolerance is so high I've done that with 10 x 500mg lines, pretty much one after the other, I'd say no more than 4-5 minute total to consume 5g, and just lie there a bit zoned out, no psychedelic effect, no k-hole.
It was around that time I decided I needed to inject. But I wish I hadn't started and don't recommend it to anyone. The needle itself is a whole other demon/addiction 👎 now my bladders alot better 👍 but I have hardly any veins left and I think I have circulation issues. And a needle fetish. 💀💉👎👎👎
 

Vastness

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Haha, holy shit, I wouldn't think it was even possible to get 5g up your nose in such a short time... :LOL:

Again this is purely anecdotal but obviously there are a lot of reports of people with huge ketamine habits who only injected and did not report any bladder problems (John Lilly, Marcia Moore, maybe some others) which lends more weight to the relative safety of IM/IV compared to other methods. It's a tricky one from a HR perspective obviously, in good conscience no-one would recommend needle administration of a drug because this is a huge, huge can of worms, but with ketamine it's kind of a grey area (assuming all proper precautions taken with regards to fresh needles, pharmaceutically pure ketamine, sterile instruments, etc, otherwise it's still pretty black and white in that injection is definitely not safer). Personally I've been lucky enough again to be able to avoid injecting anything so far and have no plans to anytime soon, but if I was going to inject anything it would probably be ketamine.
 

jhjhsdi

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@Vastness thats exactly what I used to say before I had injected.

Now I've slammed ket, ket+speed, speed by itself and ket+heroin a few times too 😕

Can of worms is an understatement.

As for pharmaceutical vials of K they are weak mg/ml with tolerance you'd need like a 5-10ml syringe full.. Or multiple smaller shots, and doing injections after already being k'd up is highly discouraged. Misses, poor technique, bad vision etc, once I was just coming out a hole trying to get into another one and was sat poking myself trying to register blood with this 3ml syringe, for quite a long time, until I gradually got more sober and realized I hadn't even put any solution into it 🤦‍♂️

Plus once you have that permatolerance too little is shit you may aswel have just sniffed and a little too much you just black out and don't remember anything just wake up on the floor (normally injured with at least some bruises or scrapes) with an uncapped needle somewhere around you/possibly stuck in your foot lol. So not only is it dangerous it's a massive waste of k.

It's a great way to fast forward time though if you need to, when I was shooting 1-2000mg IV every time my day was basically in 3 or 4 sections of 5 minutes lol.

DONT RECOMMENDED ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE AN EVEN SLIGHTLY ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY OR ACCESS TO GOOD AMOUNTS.

I mean if you have a good friend you visited once or twice a year and they have all the sterile equipment and could safely and efficiently shoot it for you then yea I'd say try it once try everything once you only live once and it's hell of an experience if you get the dose right, but once you learn how to hit yourself and start hoarding equipment it's game over peeps, trust me on this.
 

Flower Fairy

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Misses, poor technique, bad vision etc, once I was just coming out a hole trying to get into another one and was sat poking myself trying to register blood with this 3ml syringe, for quite a long time, until I gradually got more sober and realized I hadn't even put any solution into it

Fucksake that's hilarious I'd be that person too, I know when I've sniffed loads and then gone racked up and snorted another line I've had to ask a friend if I've sniffed it

I can't believe the shit you've been though with your bladder thats fucking crazy, and you still use K, that's how addictive it is, I can understand that, other people don't understand the pull it has unless they've been addicted to it

I've been thinking of injecting K because of tolerance too, I don't get K holes very often anymore, I never go to space like me best mate, never been there lol, my friend went to Mars last night, I'd love that lol, I think maybe I'd go see planets and things if I hit it up

I did K hole yesterday for the first time in a long while though but I stayed in his living room, it was still fun though till his creepy ass stupid Spotify played scary music so I hid his phone and unplugged Alexa I hate that bitch she's always playing creepy stuff when I'm on K lol, my mate needs a decent play list
 

jhjhsdi

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@Flower Fairy yeah its kinda funny apart from the fact that I'd stabbed into and through the other side of one my main veins repeatedly in different spots enough times to collapse it permanently 😐 RIP left bicep vein.

Don't do it. It's not how you'd imagine it'd be.
If you NEED your K to hit harder here's what I recommend. In my experience over the years...
Plugging it
OR
Getting semi drunk first
Being sleep deprived by at least 1 night when you do your first line, the longer you are awake the better
Combine it with order drugs. Being high on pregabs first works really well. Hitting some nitrous as you are peaking is an excellent way to take the fast road to the k-hole. People always say don't mix with benzos because it dulls the experience, but the diazepam leaflet literally tells you not to mix with ketamine because diazepam increase the effects of ketamine lol. I don't recommend benzos in general though really. DPH (diphenhyramine, aka nytol, aka tesco own extra strength sleep aids, aka boots SLEEPEEZE) also potentiates K nicely. Easily available OTC for a few quid. Just don't go over 200mg of dph lol

Alcohol or sleep dep works the best really. But you have plenty of options before turning to the needle
Back when i could only afford grams at a time, if I knew I was going to score on Friday weds n Thurs night I would stay awake and on my way back from scoring I would literally force 8 cans of Stella down my neck, before getting home and racking up.
Half the time I'd wake up with half a wrap left. Whereas if i was sober that wrap would have been gone in a couple hours max and me sat wanting more.

It's also really good/stronger on the comedown of mdma or acid but I understand not everyone has the time for that lol


Admin: I know some advice here isn't exactly harm reduction but it is when I'm using it to deter people from turning to the needle
 
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