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Ecstasy does not wreck mind, study claims

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zaggy

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An interesting little article I ran across recently.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/feb/19/ecstasy-harm-brain-new-study

February 19, 2011
There is no evidence that ecstasy causes brain damage, according to one of the largest studies into the effects of the drug. Too many previous studies made over-arching conclusions from insufficient data, say the scientists responsible for the research, and the drug's dangers have been greatly exaggerated.

The finding will shock campaigners who have claimed ecstasy poses a real risk of triggering brain damage. They have argued that it can induce memory loss, decrease cognitive performance and has long-lasting effects on behaviour.

But experts who have argued that the drug is relatively safe welcomed the new paper. "I always assumed that, when properly designed studies were carried out, we would find ecstasy does not cause brain damage," said Professor David Nutt, who was fired as chair of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs by Alan Johnson, then home secretary, for publicly stating alcohol and tobacco were more harmful than ecstasy.

The study was carried out by a team led by Professor John Halpern of Harvard Medical School and published in the journal Addiction last week. Funded by a $1.8m grant from the US National Institute on Drug Abuse, it was launched specifically to avoid methodological drawbacks that have bedevilled previous attempts to pinpoint whether or not ecstasy users suffer brain damage.

Ecstasy – or 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine, or MDMA – came into widespread use in the 1980s when taking it was linked to raves and the playing of dance music. Its symptoms include euphoria, a sense of intimacy with others and diminished anxiety and depression. In the US alone, more than 12 million have taken it.

But the taking of ecstasy has also been linked to damage to the central nervous system and research in recent years has suggested that long-term changes to emotional states and behaviour have been triggered by consumption of the drug. Possession of it has been made an offense in most western nations.

However, Halpern was sharply critical of the quality of the research that had linked ecstasy to brain damage. "Too many studies have been carried out on small populations, while overarching conclusions have been drawn from them," he said. For a start, some previous research has studied users who were taken from a culture dominated by all-night dancing, which thus exposed these individuals to sleep and fluid deprivation – factors that are themselves known to produce long-lasting cognitive effects. Non-users were not selected from those from a similar background, which therefore skewed results. In addition, past studies have not taken sufficient account of the fact that ecstasy users take other drugs or alcohol that could affect cognition or that they may have suffered intellectual impairment before they started taking ecstasy. In Halpern's study only ecstasy users who took no other drugs and who had suffered no previous impairment were selected.

The resulting experiment whittled down 1,500 potential participants to 52 selected users, whose cognitive abilities matched those of a group of 59 non-users. "We even took hair samples of participants to test whether they were telling the truth about their drug and alcohol habits," said Halpern. "Essentially we compared one group of people who danced and raved and took ecstasy with a similar group of individuals who danced and raved but who did not take ecstasy. When we did that, we found that there was no difference in their cognitive abilities." In other words, previous studies highlighted problems triggered by other factors, such as use of other drugs or drink, or sleep deprivation.

But the drug still posed risks, he said. "Ecstasy consumption is dangerous because illegally made pills often contain contaminants that can have harmful side-effects."
Click to expand...

My take is that of course excessive usage will cause damage— serotonin is an extremely important neurotransmitter that you need to regulate many vital functions throughout your body. But here we have more proof that if used responsibly and in moderation, Ecstasy is quite benign. The hangover always seemed so severe to me that I thought some damage had always occurred, but that's just how important serotonin is. Without it for the next week or so you can be assured that your mood and memory will be affected.
 
Without it for the next week or so you can be assured that your mood and memory will be affected.
Click to expand...

Been replenishing it with foods for past 3 months,
Eat heavily after a rave.

I havent had a comedown in those 3 months
 
It's all about responsible use - like with most drugs. :) But I think most seasoned ravers know that the dangers of MDMA are way over-stated. Even after a serious binge, it's still possible to get back on track and get your shit sorted out. Now that doesn't mean MDMA can't fuck you up (I am actually in the middle of mid-week comedown after using large amount of MDMA for two weeks in a row), but if you have your shit together, you'll be all right.
 
darksidedsam said:
Been replenishing it with foods for past 3 months,
Eat heavily after a rave.

I havent had a comedown in those 3 months
Click to expand...

Sounds great! I'll try eating heavily and healthily after the next time I roll. I have had Green Superfood drinks directly after but still got a full on hangover.


levictus said:
It's all about responsible use - like with most drugs. :) But I think most seasoned ravers know that the dangers of MDMA are way over-stated. Even after a serious binge, it's still possible to get back on track and get your shit sorted out. Now that doesn't mean MDMA can't fuck you up (I am actually in the middle of mid-week comedown after using large amount of MDMA for two weeks in a row), but if you have your shit together, you'll be all right.
Click to expand...

Agreed! I don't think I would never put myself through a hangover worse than a normal dose haha

All awesome replies, you guys!
 
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A Dissenting Voice

I have seen this study before.
The conclusions made by this paper, just like the responses seen on this page, are naive.

Levictus contacted me and reminded me that my 'authoritative' approach may be difficult for the young members of BL to handle. I would be a more effective communicator if I could learn to be more understanding, thus my valuable contributions would go further.

I appreciate your advice Levictus, and evidence of this can be seen in a few recent posts of mine.
But I firmly believe that threads like this REQUIRE a strong, authoritative tone.
In fact, I am opposing your statements as much or more than the others on this page.

I know you will not take offense to my strong words, and I encourage the other posters to follow your example.
No offense is intended to my audience here, and I simply ask that all of you carefully consider my argument.

Where do I start?

"The resulting experiment whittled down 1,500 potential participants to 52 selected users"
Right out of the gate, before ANY research is performed, we find that only 3.4% of subjects were considered.

Why would this be?

If you visit this link - http://www.nhs.uk/news/2011/02February/Pages/ecstasy-brain-damage-research.aspx
you will see a more detailed description of the exclusion criteria.
For some reason this data is removed from the link provided not only by the OP, but most of those found on Google.

This is disturbing to me, because it would appear that the media is intentionally hiding valuable information.
Read the page for yourself.

I will repeat the limitations - the users that were recruited at RAVES were interviewed over the phone.
Those reporting more than 100 lifetime uses of marijuana or more than 50 intoxicating alcohol uses were excluded.
If they reported more than 10 uses of ANY other illicit drug, they were also excluded.
Any current users of prescription medications that are psycho-active or people with significant events like past head-injury were understandably excluded.

The marijuana and alcohol restrictions ALONE would eliminate a VAST majority of Bluelighters from this study - including some/all of those commenting above.

Yet here we are, advocating the 'safety' of MDMA for the benefit of TYPICAL users online that WOULD NOT EVEN QUALIFY AS SUBJECTS.

Hmm...

You have to ask yourself WHY is it SO difficult to find appropriate subjects for such a controlled study???
The answer is obvious - because MDMA users overwhelmingly use other drugs, esp. cannabis.

Read the entire page for the link I provided above and you will see FURTHER evidence of this...
"Owing to difficulties in recruiting, they relaxed their criteria for six individuals who had taken other drugs."

That's right - out of 1500 people that attended raves and responded over the phone - only 3.4% were able to meet the relatively RELAXED criteria for this study. In fact this percentage is only 3.1% if these SIX people are removed.

I believe that THIS is one of the MOST important findings of this study.
This is a LARGE study carefully conducted with a budget of nearly $2 million.
The criteria for cannabis use was fairly liberal - yet the study CLEARLY demonstrates a SIGNIFICANT finding...
The VAST majority of MDMA users are not only USERS of cannabis, they are HEAVY users...and they ALSO use other drugs/alcohol.

Why is this CLEAR finding not being communicated in this thread?
Or in others on BL regarding MDMA toxicity?

Other studies have been done that eliminate ALL rave attendees AND cannabis users.
Those studies also find little to NO cognitive impairment, when these two VERY important controls are put in place.

But within the scientific community, such findings are rightfullycriticized on the grounds that such controls are NOT typical behaviors for the millions of MDMA users worldwide.

This study was designed to address this criticism - Prof. Halpern, using a LOT of money, attempted to extract a very UNUSUAL group of rave attendees. But his study CONFIRMS what was already known - MOST (97% in this case) do NOT qualify for such criteria - even when cannabis use is relaxed to allow for 100 lifetime uses.

Tell me, Bluelight - what do we gain from studies that proclaim 'Ecstasy doesn't wreck the mind!', if NONE of us qualify for the criteria?
Think about it...

I know ONE thing we gain - clear advice that ongoing use of OTHER drugs increases the RISKS of using MDMA.
This is a finding of MANY researchers, something I have pointed out numerous times.

"While the extent of MDMA use predicted the level of cognitive deficit, it is the extent of cannabis use that predicts the emotional/psychological deficit."
"It appears that the negative effects of MDMA and cannabis may be additive."
"Long-term heavy use of cannabis was associated with higher incidence of psychopathalogy among former MDMA users."

Just a few examples...

I should also mention that EVERY single person I have met in the last year that has serious problems from MDMA were ALSO long-term cannabis users.
Out of about 25 people that have contacted me for help, I cannot extract ONE exception.
Some of the WORST cases were also avid users of other psychedelics...
Moving on.

There is another DRAMATIC flaw in this study - "The participants had been asked to refrain from taking ecstasy for 10 days before these tests."

Here is the problem, in my HONEST opinion - THE COGNITIVE CHANGES CAUSED BY MDMA ARE NOT APPARENT IMMEDIATELY.

I have seen many former users that exhibit a delayed onset of symptoms.
After 11 difficult months I can relate to this.

Although my emotional suffering was at its highest in the beginning, my cognitive abilities were UNCHANGED.
Only now do I realize that the 'cognitive' changes do indeed occur as the brain 'recovers'.
Yes, they are quite subtle...and easily overcome MOST days. Some days not.
In particular I find it harder to multi-task. I have to re-read things more frequently, and sometimes I even type slowly - an odd occurrence for someone that easily averages 70 wpm!

Some heavy users claim it took several months of abstinence to realize the cognitive changes.
My wife, who was NOT a heavy user, also took 3-4 months before her own symptoms arose.

This is found in research or former users - some of the 'subtle' cognitive deficits may be occurring over TIME...as the result of the RECOVERY process.

Should this be so surprising?

After all it is AGREED upon that MDMA 're-wires the brain' and that this process occurs over a 'protracted' period of time.
These findings are NOT really in debate.

Can you see how this is qualifies as a fatal flaw for the study?
Examining only the cognitive function of CURRENT users is not sufficient, in light of the belief that cognitive alteration occurs during abstinence.

Finally, I would assert that the cognitive deficits ARE INDEED SUBTLE.
I do not expect to emerge from this recovery with much of a change in IQ, although I do suspect a few points are lost.
Rather - I believe the 'deficit' or DAMAGE caused by MDMA escapes cognitive testing because it is not easily TESTED FOR.

In particular, I believe the greatest LOSS is in the HIGHEST of cognitive abilities - those ENHANCED during the use of MDMA.

Emotions like EMPATHY and REMORSE will be the victims of MDMA...forever altered.
How do we test for these functions?
And if we DO, can we devise tests sensitive enough to detect changes?

Sure, I still feel some empathy for others - the emotion is not GONE.
But for several months it WAS.
Now it is elusive...

Strange...during the first month of recovery I felt MORE guilt/remorse and EMPATHY than I have EVER felt in my ENTIRE life.
My highest emotional and cognitive pathways were FIRING out of control!
I even remember seeing this in some research - during the early stages of recovery, former MDMA users describe significantly elevated levels of GUILT.
It typically stops by 6 months, with depression/anxiety resolving around 12-18 months.

But now, after all this time...I can honestly say that my ability to feel guilt/shame/remorse/empathy and even ORGASM remains modified.
No, I am not through the process yet. And I will be SURE to keep the community updated on my eventual long-term outcome.

But for now, I STRONGLY suspect that it is these higher cognitive functions - the ones that are HARD to test for...that will be forever altered by this drug.

All of these emotions as well as sexual desire and the experience of climax...ALL of them are influenced by the function of the Prefrontal Cortex.
It is the interaction between the PFC and numerous other brain regions that gives rise to these higher emotions, as well as our very personalities.
Other animals, even primates, display smaller frontal lobes than us. But when we look at the Prefrontal region - the difference is vast.
More than ANY other brain region, the PFC defines us as HUMAN.

And this is the region of the brain targeted by MDMA.
And damaged by it.

Moving on...

I have argued that the criteria for participating in this study, and others like it, ignores reality.
The disparity between the 3% of subjects and the REST of us renders the findings of this study QUESTIONABLE.
Or at least very LIMITED in their application...

The authors agree -
"The researchers suggested their study may show that “illicit ecstasy use, by itself, does not generally produce lasting residual neurotoxicity” (brain damage). They further suggest that, as they took UNUSUAL care to minimise factors that might bias results, it is plausible that the results of some earlier studies, which suggested that ecstasy impaired brain function or caused brain damage, could be attributed to these confounding factors."

In other words - the factors that they are choosing to ignore may be the very CAUSE of 'brain damage' reported among typical users.

I have also argued that the lack of cognitive deficits seen in this study could be compromised by lack of prolonged abstinence from the drug.
This is addressed - "This was a cross-sectional study, which means that the assessment of cognitive function was made at one point in time. It is not possible to say from these results whether ecstasy use would affect the brain over time. "

The authors also agree with my other argument - that the cognitive tests may not be SENSITIVE enough to detect the changes.

"However, they also say that the lack of a difference in cognitive function between the groups may be because they were unable to detect an effect rather than because one did not exist. They also highlight that only six participants had very high ecstasy exposure (over 150 episodes). Given these two plausible explanations for not finding a difference, they say that the effect of ecstasy on the brain remains “incompletely resolved”."

Besides...
"This study looked at cognitive function using various tests, but did not look at brain structures (such as by using brain scans). As this study was not designed to detect brain damage and did not follow people over time, any differences it might have found in brain function could not have been confirmed as permanent or temporary."

Am I getting through to anyone yet?

Plenty of studies exist that CONFIRM brain abnormalities among former MDMA users.
While brain scans are not perfect or conclusive, the wealth of data suggests that MDMA makes several changes inside the brain.
Abnormal blood distribution, with some regions receiving more or less blood than the rest of brain, have been documented for over a YEAR in some patients.
Glucose metabolism, the primary sign of energy metabolism, remains lowered in the frontal lobes for a long period of time.
Labeling SERT protein, thought to be one of the reliable markers, has shown reduced serotonin activity in the cortex and prefrontal cortex even after YEARS of recovery.
Also, damage to the striatal dopamine neurons has been seen, which may explain why re-exposure to MDMA causes a heightened motor-response even after long-term abstinence.

Again, our ability to understand the living brain through imaging technology is imperfect.
We cannot simply sacrifice human subjects like animal ones and slice the brain into pieces.
Even this method has limitations - because neurology is a branch of science that is OVERSHADOWED by the sheer complexity of the subject it studies.

But repeated and overwhelming trends cannot be ignored.
3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine can cause brain damage, especially when used repeatedly...especially when used by poly-drug users.

In vitro, it is a POTENT neurotoxin.
In vivo, it is a selective neurotoxin that causes a lasting reorganization of the ascending serotonin axons.
There is NO DEBATE ABOUT THESE STATEMENTS.

Oh yeah...
The study DID find some cognitive deficit.
This quote comes from their own abstract - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2010.03252.x/abstract
"We found little evidence of decreased cognitive performance in ecstasy users, save for poorer strategic self-regulation, possibly reflecting increased impulsivity. However, this finding might have reflected a pre-morbid attribute of ecstasy users, rather than a residual neurotoxic effect of the drug."

Sounds like a SUBTLE deficit to me.
Hmm...impulsivity?
I wonder if that is an issue for me...

I FIRMLY believe that MOST studies, whether designed like this one or not, fail to detect the alterations made to our finest visceral emotions.
It is not that the deficits don't exist - we are just ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS.

I hope to return to Bluelight at some point in the future and proclaim that ALL of my higher emotions have returned to 100%.
I suspect that the brain is quite talented at replicating the original structure...

But I cannot allow threads like these to go unanswered.
The myth that Ecstasy 'does not cause brain damage' is WRONG.
And it is dangerous.

As users of the drug, you should accept the overwhelming scientific evidence that MDMA does cause 'damage' of some kind.
You should recognize that you are making a sacrifice every time you roll.
You should do so with the awareness that, perhaps one day, you will NOT find the sacrifice so worthwhile.

My repeated and STRONG advice remains the same -

1.NO RE-DOSING.
2.Space rolls by 90 days.
3.Control your body temperature, especially if an acute reaction occurs.
4.Do NOT smoke marijuana regularly, as this may increase the long-term risk.

Follow these rules, and you can claim to be part of that elite 3 percent.
Then we can do a study on you and post it here for everyone else. :D
 
Reports like these are nice to have but sadly impractical. Why?

You're likely to be consuming meth, amp, (some entactogen) and MDMA whenever you take pressed pills.

Meth by itself is actually proven to be highly neurotoxic, unlike MDMA which still has conflicting studies.
 
I gotta admit FBC, I read through half that before I couldnt go on. Ill finish the rest when Im sobered up

but the reason they wanted only ecstasy users who didnt smoke/do other drugs is obviously because they want to see what MDMA does to your brain, not what MDMA in combination with a bunch of other shit does

I dont buy the whole MDMA and cannabis abuse together is THAT much worse than MDMA abuse alone. I think your finding a pattern you will find in all drug users, I would say at least 50% of all the crack heads, tweakers, junkies, fry-heads and E tards are moderate to heavy cannabis users. If they arnt now they probably were before
 
@First Bad Comedown- All valid points. I myself am three months abstinent from Ecstasy and plan to go about a year or more. I'm not to sure if I've suffered major changes in my emotional regulation or cognitive abilities due to Ecstasy, but with this abstinence I am seeing how my state of mind will change. In the past year or so I have experienced almost unbearable levels of empathy and extreme anxiety, as well as the guilt you mentioned— but for me personally, those were caused by experiencing multiple traumatic events very close to each other over the span of two years. The empathy isn't a new thing for me though because I'm an identical twin, so it's pretty much always been on overdrive. Meditation has helped me reclaim control of my mind and my life.

~Edit: I also had two MTBIs in one year, lord knows how those affected my brain chemistry. I was on a whole other plane of consciousness for a long time.

When using, I stick to the 4 rolls a year rule, which I broke a couple years back. I was rolling 1 to 2 times a month for 6 months. It's been two years since then. I realized how it was affecting me and decreased use. I am not a heavy drug user. I went through a period of frequent use of psychedelics (which left me utterly disoriented on the tail end). Only recently have I resumed smoking cannabis weekly from a prolonged period of abstinence.

If I were to roll again I would abstain from drugs for a week or so beforehand to cleanse my system, pre-load, have water available, eat healthily afterwards, and post-load. I think that sounds good in terms of doing minimal harm to the brain.

How does that sound to you?
 
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Renz - its good that you recognize the limited scope of this study.
However, be aware that your next statement is among the MOST dangerous of those made about MDMA.
That is because EVERYONE says the same thing - as if PURE MDMA couldn't possibly be dangerous!
While adulterants are a definite concern - real MDMA is a POTENT neurotoxin. There is no need to draw attention away from this truth.

Folley - I understand what the real point of this research paper was.
The researcher is simply trying to illustrate what the effects of MDMA would be in the absence of other heavy drug use, but AT A RAVE.
The data is limited in value scientifically, but here we see it being MISUSED by multiple online news resources AND Bluelight members.
Not only are many of the concessions about the study LEFT OUT, but the mere presence of a thread like this on Bluelight is highly questionable.
That is why I am responding - BL doesn't need an INACCURATE representation of a LIMITED study like this being used to DEFEND MDMA.

Good point about the cannabis though - other hardcore drug users overwhelmingly use cannabis too.
The difference is that with MDMA some people DON'T smoke cannabis. And the data suggests that they develop FAR fewer psychological problems!
You don't have to 'buy' it for it to be true...

Zaggy - Sorry to hear about the traumatic events including 2 TBIs.
Bad idea rolling while that shit was going on...but you figured that out.
I never knew that identical twins had superior empathy...

If you really want my advice on how to roll again...
Abstain from cannabis for a MONTH before-hand.
Drink electrolytes, not water while rolling.
Pre-load with all anti-oxidants...magnesium, Vit C, and acetyl l-carnatine. All good ones.
Make sure you eat a very healthy diet leading up to the experience as well.
Do not pre-load with tryptophan or 5-HTP unless you are going to stop taking it DAYS in advance...it increases the risk of SS.
Pre-load with Piracetam many hours prior...and post-load with a higher dose. It may help the brain clear some of the nasty metabolites.

And exercise both before and the days following.
Avoid alcohol, too.

But the number one rule I always spread - NO REDOSING.
Taking repeated doses increases the damage while offering less benefit.
And keep your body temperature low.

Good luck.
 
^ Welcome to BlueLight =D

@First Bad Comdown - Thanks for all your knowledge, I'll definitely do that next time I roll. Just started daily Piracetam here heheh :)
 
FirstBadComeDown said:
Pre-load with all anti-oxidants...magnesium, Vit C, and acetyl l-carnatine. All good ones.
Click to expand...

Acetyl-L-Carnitine can actually be more toxic than beneficial, if not taken with IMO the best antioxidant - Alpha-Lipoic Acid. It's best to use the R isomer RLA or R-ALA

If you take ALC, it is best to take it with ALA/RLA. Do some research on ALA/RLA! :D

I take that shit everyday.

Magnesium is not an antioxidant though
 
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@First_Bad_Comedown- that was a brilliant write up. I couldn't agree more with what you were saying and can only pray that the cautious and grounded perspective you expound becomes the norm for ecstasy users.

One point you alluded to and that I think more users need to understand is that MDMA has its strongest influence on the psyche, which could make the consequences of using just as costly as they are subtle. That is to say, MDMA affects the finite processes of emotion and perspective that occur in one's mind.

These things can't be measured externally. No brain-image or cat-scan can tell you how happy you are.

Regulating the processes of the psyche is not an easy task even for those who do not use MDMA. It requires a conscious effort to really tune into the rhythms of your own mental and emotional processes. From my experience, MDMA makes it next to impossible to really become astute in regulating the changes that occur in your psyche.

Any substance that can make the simple experience of hearing a beat build and then drop one that borders on other-worldly is going to do a lot to stretch one's concept of a fluid and grounded reality. So for me to hear people say that a week after rolling everything is back to normal, I know they have no established measure of 'normal' with which they could make such a statement. And the reality is I don't blame them. Mental self-regulation is a difficult task, and one that is not often prescribed in Western society.

This being the case, I think MDMA's negative effects are far greater and harder to measure than people believe them to be. It is my hope that the culture surrounding MDMA use becomes a more cautious one, because its popularity is skyrocketing at an incredible rate. I appreciate that your spreading sound information regarding its dangers.

If you get the chance, could you please PM me links to some of those studies you mentioned? Thanks and be safe everyone.
 
First Bad Comedown said:
real MDMA is a POTENT neurotoxin. There is no need to draw attention away from this truth.
Click to expand...

Do you have any evidence for this? And I mean real human being evidence - not the usual injecting mice with gigantic amounts of MDMA directly into their brain every 3 hours for 10 days then cutting their brains open and saying "Look, that one cell there looks a bit damaged...so that means if a human being takes an oral dose once a month he'll get brain damaged dude".

All the "evidence" I've ever read saying MDMA is neurotoxic was complete and utter fucking horseshit. It usually comes from agencies funded by the DEA or the government - they understand that unless they come up with "E is bad for you" the money will stop.
 
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You shouldn't believe everything you read, everyone's different but from personal experience (being a responsible user) and my friends own experiences, MDMA can definitely cause after effects, there's no denying that, there's gotta be some brain damage along the way
 
True but after-effects can be caused by quite a lot of things other than brain damage.

I guess it depends what you mean by brain damage. If there's a cell that's damaged but this has absolutely no effect on your behaviour or your brain or life in anyway then perhaps. But obviously if you claim "Smoking causes cancer" you can go do any hospital on earth and find supporting evidence. You can't find many people in hospital with "brain damage from ecstasy".
 
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