How did sex work exist previous to condoms and birth control?

[Jabberwocky]

Yes, there are high class prostitutes - but they're very small minority of the entire group. I don't believe a minority should be represantion of a group.
I hear very often the argument that about for example small minority of immigrants makes entire group look bad and the group should be judged on the average person of it, not by the top or bottom. That's like saying thieves are honorable because of couple of masterminds who do their job in an eloquent and respectable manner. On average the attitudes towards prostitution have gotten more acceptable, while there may have been some expections in some times - on average things have gotten better for prostitutes.
I disagree about social attitudes being less purinatical back in the day - they were much worse. In many parts of the world still today you get killed for such a behavior.

The degree of puritanism depends a lot on social rank, the time period, and the location. Puritinanism about sex has tended to be a middle class thing in the Western world. Working class and upper class people were a lot more licentious in general (perhaps at least until the Victorian era) . But in developing countries in Asia where I've lived in it is lower/peasant class people who are particularly concerned about sexual morality and middle class people who tend to get all free-love and kinky.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The degree of puritanism depends a lot on social rank, the time period, and the location. Puritinanism about sex has tended to be a middle class thing in the Western world. Working class and upper class people were a lot more licentious in general (perhaps at least until the Victorian era) . But in developing countries in Asia where I've lived in it is lower/peasant class people who are particularly concerned about sexual morality and middle class people who tend to get all free-love and kinky.

How about Islamic countries?

 

[w01fg4ng]

The coat hanger wasn't even invented until 1869.

 

[Jabberwocky]

How about Islamic countries?

Well there are differences there too. Turkey before the twentieth century was Islamic but homosexuality and the keeping of harems (of boys or women) was widely tolerated amongst the educated aristocratic elite. Some of the finest homoerotic love poetry ever originated in the Ottoman empire.

Today in Islamic Indonesia you can get your wick waxed three times before lunch just by wandering around major city malls and smiling at pretty girls who work as shop assistants and receptionists. However once you leave the big cities you run the risk of being lynched if you flirt with a single girl in a village or small town in some regions.

The stereotypical ‘muslim’ attitudes to women and sex tend to be more aspects of Arabic culture that have flowed out through the world as Islam spread. But in many countries (like Turkey and Indonesia) there is pushback saying that arab culture and Islam do not have to go hand in hand.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Well there are differences there too. Turkey before the twentieth century was Islamic but homosexuality and the keeping of harems (of boys or women) was widely tolerated amongst the educated aristocratic elite. Some of the finest homoerotic love poetry ever originated in the Ottoman empire.

Today in Islamic Indonesia you can get your wick waxed three times before lunch just by wandering around major city malls and smiling at pretty girls who work as shop assistants and receptionists. However once you leave the big cities you run the risk of being lynched if you flirt with a single girl in a village or small town in some regions.

The stereotypical ‘muslim’ attitudes to women and sex tend to be more aspects of Arabic culture that have flowed out through the world as Islam spread. But in many countries (like Turkey and Indonesia) there is pushback saying that arab culture and Islam do not have to go hand in hand.

Once again, minority (aristocracy) doesn't represent the whole group. Turkey might be a good expection, but it's still a minority and you're speaking about specific time on specific empire. I was talking overall. Also, Indonesia is not arabic country.
Islam is probably the most homophobic religion of all abrahamic ones, I would dare to say that even the most homophobic religion on earth - And christianity is not much better. Read the book, then come talk about Islam and homosexuality. Also, please don't quote couple of nitpicked verses here and there that you just googled.

 

[papercuts]

Disease (fatal at the time), violence, social ostracization, evil men killing you for birthing their child.... fuck

Modern times allow the first one to be improved, the other three problems didn't go away.
Don't forget condoms only work if the guy uses it. Not much a woman can do if he refuses at the last minute.
Guys that do that are already the violent type of course, so there's the oldest problem right there.

 

[papercuts]

The degree of puritanism depends a lot on social rank, the time period, and the location. Puritinanism about sex has tended to be a middle class thing in the Western world. Working class and upper class people were a lot more licentious in general (perhaps at least until the Victorian era) . But in developing countries in Asia where I've lived in it is lower/peasant class people who are particularly concerned about sexual morality and middle class people who tend to get all free-love and kinky.

Where a family is poor the daughters must be pure to get married, often too young as well. Richer women don't need a man's money so can drop some of the more controlling rules.
So culturally poor countries seem to have a worse stigma.

As I told my therapist once, "Women only have rights when men think we should have them". You should have seem the look on his face go from denial to realisation in a second or two of double-take.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Once again, minority (aristocracy) doesn't represent the whole group. Turkey might be a good expection, but it's still a minority and you're speaking about specific time on specific empire. I was talking overall. Also, Indonesia is not arabic country.
Islam is probably the most homophobic religion of all abrahamic ones, I would dare to say that even the most homophobic religion on earth - And christianity is not much better. Read the book, then come talk about Islam and homosexuality. Also, please don't quote couple of nitpicked verses here and there that you just googled.

Islam is not a heterogeneous religion the way say Catholicism is. As it spread out to the world - including to places like Indonesia - it changed and adapted and incorporated local beliefs and practices just as it introduced beliefs and practices from the Arab culture where it began.

When people talk stereotypically about homophobia or misogyny in Islam they are often talking about the influence of either Modernist Islam that grew out of Egyptian universities at the end of the 19th Century or Wahabbist Islam that has been spreading globally under the sponsorship of Saudi Arabia for the last half century or more.

It is these two movements that are mostly responsible for things Westerners don’t like about Islam. However amongst the billion or so Muslims around the world there are tens if not hundreds of millions who resist the influence of both.

Not only have I read the book, I’ve lived and worked in predominately Muslim countries for 20 years and of such friends that I have, at least 80 % are Muslims. And I don’t willingly associate with misogynists, homophobes or bigots.

 

[papercuts]

Also, Indonesia is not arabic country.

Nor is Turkey!

 

[papercuts]

Islam is not a heterogeneous religion the way say Catholicism is. As it spread out to the world - including to places like Indonesia - it changed and adapted and incorporated local beliefs and practices just as it introduced beliefs and practices from the Arab culture where it began.

When people talk stereotypically about homophobia or misogyny in Islam they are often talking about the influence of either Modernist Islam that grew out of Egyptian universities at the end of the 19th Century or Wahabbist Islam that has been spreading globally under the sponsorship of Saudi Arabia for the last half century or more.

It is these two movements that are mostly responsible for things Westerners don’t like about Islam. However amongst the billion or so Muslims around the world there are tens if not hundreds of millions who resist the influence of both.

Not only have I read the book, I’ve lived and worked in predominately Muslim countries for 20 years and of such friends that I have, at least 80 % are Muslims. And I don’t willingly associate with misogynists, homophobes or bigots.

Indeed, I was on a small local bus in western Turkey once when a young woman veiled from head to foot in black got on. Turkey is 98% Sunni Muslim. Some older Turkish women were very disparaging towards her, I couldn't understand a lot of what was said quickly, but from what I caught, it seemed to be the advancing of women's rights and public involvement rather than it being specifically sunni/shia tension.
I'm betting they didn't vote for their current government.
Sorry for going a bit off topic there!

 

[Hippy Flower Fairy]

It's possible some of them even thought it was safer too - or less risk. This is how we got syphilis

Bloody hell is it

We know, for example, that gonorrhoea came from cattle to humans. Syphilis also came to humans from cattle or sheep many centuries ago, possibly sexually”

I had no idea, I knew HIV came from chimps, but I thought it was monkeys but apparently Google says chimps ain't monkeys lol

 

[Jabberwocky]

Islam is not a heterogeneous religion the way say Catholicism is. As it spread out to the world - including to places like Indonesia - it changed and adapted and incorporated local beliefs and practices just as it introduced beliefs and practices from the Arab culture where it began.

When people talk stereotypically about homophobia or misogyny in Islam they are often talking about the influence of either Modernist Islam that grew out of Egyptian universities at the end of the 19th Century or Wahabbist Islam that has been spreading globally under the sponsorship of Saudi Arabia for the last half century or more.

It is these two movements that are mostly responsible for things Westerners don’t like about Islam. However amongst the billion or so Muslims around the world there are tens if not hundreds of millions who resist the influence of both.

Not only have I read the book, I’ve lived and worked in predominately Muslim countries for 20 years and of such friends that I have, at least 80 % are Muslims. And I don’t willingly associate with misogynists, homophobes or bigots.

You must've had hard time there. I'm not saying that homosexuality doesn't exist there - but when it does and gets exposed to public the consequences for people who perpetruate such an act are severe. Of course it's kept secret by families/close ones when such an act occurs, same goes with many other things.
And wahabbism is an attempt to "return Islam to it's roots", I wouldn't call it modernist islam. It's the most pure form of Islam there is, if you wanna go by the book.
Tens, or hundreds of millions of muslims are a small minority - there's billions of them and it's the fastest growing religion. you're trying to make the entire group look good based on a minority. How come?
Why is it wrong to make then entire ethnic group look bad based on minority of them?

 

[Jabberwocky]

I’m all about the nuance.

 

[mystery mister E]

Bloody hell is it


I had no idea, I knew HIV came from chimps, but I thought it was monkeys but apparently Google says chimps ain't monkeys lol

Well I never knew the cattle theory for gonorrhoea. Interesting.

The HIV theory is that people hunting and gathering 'bush' meat were injured and that through these kind of cuts (and repeated exposure) SIV (simian immuno virus) mutated. In my mind simian is synonymous with chimpanzee but I'm no expert.

 

[Foreigner]

I just want to point out that there are herbal cures for pre-modern bacterial STIs, including syphilis. Those herbal formulas still exist. They were expensive and had to be used long-term, but saved many lives. Some of those formulas are still used today, especially with antibiotic-resistant strains of syphilis. You take the antibiotics plus the herbs and the combination is more effective than either alone.

Also, women had methods of stopping unwanted pregnancy. Many soaked sponges or inserts with various herbs that in hindsight were spermicidal, and inserted them as boluses into their upper cervix before or after sex. Also, timing the cycle was important. It's my understanding that most sex work was done without condoms back then.

Sex workers who worked in brothels had the most access to "health care". Women who worked the streets, less so.

There were also male sex workers back then too, don't forget. Their profession was more risky because homosexuality was illegal in most of Europe until recently. If they were caught, they could be castrated or have their dicks cut off. In France, the first offense was having your nose cut off, second offense was balls and dick. Or was it the other way around? I don't remember.

Pre-modern life was cruel and primitive. Humans are still pretty fucking ignorant and stupid today but it was way worse before.

 

[polarthedog]

Flashback to my elementary school where they showed us a rather disturbing video and said "HIV came from a bite from a chimp".

I always felt the details were a little odd, considering. Eating them makes more sense. That would make me assume, though, that whatever consumption was either raw or undercooked.

but HIV can only survive 0.25 seconds outside of a body, so eating them wouldn't make you catch it i don't think

 

[hardtack]

Lots of VD existed and unwanted Births--that about sums it upLOL, then they invented LYSOL !

 

[deficiT]

Lots of bastard sons

 

[axe battler]

Bloody hell is it


I had no idea, I knew HIV came from chimps, but I thought it was monkeys but apparently Google says chimps ain't monkeys lol

Yeah! Basically monkeys have tails and anything without are apes, like chimps and gorillas and orangutans and Robert Deniro

 

[osft]

Listerine douches were the contraceptive of the flapper/depression era, it has been reliably reported

HIV crossed over because of using primate blood as a "food" for live polio vaccines. They were prepared in chimpanzee tissue cultures. "Science" tried to sweep that under the rug, but failed. The truth is out there. So no, neither eating nor f--king primates was involved, just big ego'd lazy minded do-gooder Doctors and a whole industry that covered for them. Fact. NOT "debunked" unless you are a moron.