MAOI's reduce the effects of LSD?

[Ballz_Trippington]

I was just doing some research on the gold standard (LSD) and I noticed on wikipidia's LSD page under "adverse drug interactions" that it states that MAOI's are known to reduce LSD's effects. This seems totally wrong according to my understanding of how MAOI's work. Can anyone with a better knowledge of chemistry explain why this might be so?
Thanks very very much in advance for any wisdom thrown my way!

 

[Xorkoth]

That is definitely wrong, MAOIs potentiate the effects of many, many drugs, including all serotonergic psychedelics, I am not aware of them reducing the effectiveness of anything.

 

[《Plasticity》]

I have an online buddy that says MAOI's and LSD are a fucking nightmare, he claims that there was lot's of confusion, vomiting, mindfuck, profuse sweating and all other nasty shit. I think the MAOI he took was moclobemide, I'll see if I can dig up the email and give a better summary of what happened. I would say it was definately an increase in effects, unpleasant ones at that. I also can't see how an MAOI would decrease the effects of LSD, perhaps the person meant SSRI?

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

Harmala alkaloids so effectively increased and improved mushrooms for me that I did try a standard dose of harmaline followed by a small dose of LSD - the results were it neither weakened the LSD, nor increased it as hoped it was simply the effects of that dose of harmaline plus that of the dose of LSD so I never bothered again. I am guessing the doses of LSD required suggest it isn't broken down by bodily MAOs anyhow.
Moclobemide is a very different kettle of fish to harmaline as a potentiator and changes for example mushrooms in a very different direction to harmalas sinced it's effects are more antidepresant and harmalas heading towards psychedelic and perhaps more potentiation because of it.

 

[Ismene]

I'd be interested in anyone with first hand knowledge of this. I've read various things that MAOI help acid and others say it doesn't. I'm curious as to how they alter the nature of the trip.

I'm very experienced with MAOIs and mushrooms - people say that an MAOI "potentiates" the mushroom trip but that's not right, what it actually does is turn the mushroom trip into an oral DMT trip. So the moclobemide works to convert the psilocybin more into DMT. I'm not sure how moclobemide could affect LSD into being much different to LSD.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Moclobemide is a very different kettle of fish to harmaline as a potentiator and changes for example mushrooms in a very different direction to harmalas sinced it's effects are more antidepresant and harmalas heading towards psychedelic and perhaps more potentiation because of it.

What makes you say this? MAO inhibition is MAO inhibition, moclobemide is just a stronger inhibitor afaik. Moclobemide is used in pharmahuasca and shroomahuasca all the time and it's the MAOI of choice for the user I'm reffering to do to the fact that there's no dietary restrictions. Reports of people taking MAOI's with LSD are all over the place, some say it's magical and some say it's a nightmare. LSD hits an insane amount of receptors, I remember looking at the values for every receptor it hits and the list was rediculous, it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't play well with MAOI's.

 

[Solipsis]

Don't fuck with MAOI's combined with drugs that aren't that selective. It seems like a bad idea. Then again LSD has a big therapeutic index but from every mention I remember it seems risky and unpredictable, even if only considering psychological effects.

Ismene where are you getting that psilocybin is converted into DMT, because it feels that way? Psilocin is deaminated and glucuronidated before excretion, not demethylated / dealkylated. MAOIs like moclobemide inhibit MAO, they don't induce demethylating enzymes that aren't there in the first place.
I think that instead MAOI's prevent breakdown of psilocin as well as secondary alkaloids like mono alkylated tryptamines. Without the MAOI such secondary tryptamines may already act as a competitive MAOI just by being MAO substrates but when there are more potent MAOIs ingested they may play an even more active role. (I have experience with mushrooms + harmala by the way).
Whether subjectively mushrooms with MAOIs feels more like an oral DMT trip is a different matter, since oral DMT trips also involve MAOIs it is not really that big of a surprise that they may feel alike.

 

[ebola?]

That is definitely wrong, MAOIs potentiate the effects of many, many drugs, including all serotonergic psychedelics, I am not aware of them reducing the effectiveness of anything.

On paper, inhibition of MAOA or B shouldn't potentiate LSD, as it is not a ready substrate for MAO, nor does it interact with monoamine transporters.

ebola

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

What makes you say this? MAO inhibition is MAO inhibition, moclobemide is just a stronger inhibitor afaik. Moclobemide is used in pharmahuasca and shroomahuasca all the time and it's the MAOI of choice for the user I'm reffering to do to the fact that there's no dietary restrictions. Reports of people taking MAOI's with LSD are all over the place, some say it's magical and some say it's a nightmare. LSD hits an insane amount of receptors, I remember looking at the values for every receptor it hits and the list was rediculous, it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't play well with MAOI's.

I say this because I've tried it and the effect on mushrooms is massively qualitively different; they may both be MAOIs but they feel totally different same as aMT is an MAOI and feels different. Even just taking the MAO inhibition you are wrong, there are many kinds and there aren't really dietry problems with harmalas, just like moclobemide they are reversable MAOIs and don't constitute the risk that irreversable ones do - this has been covered so many times here already; not advocating too cavalier an attitude (and I'd advise not mixing with many products) but reversable MAOIs are a lot less dangerous than most suppose even though warnings are well meaning

I had no problems but the LSD dose was small - it was to test if there was potentiation but it seemed not and I can't see much reason to mix them - LSD is about perfect and even supposing the mix is safe which I suspect it may well be, things like harmalas bring unwanted effects to the mix like nausea and others which in all likelihood won't help out much

 

[Sir Ron Pib]

Ismene where are you getting that psilocybin is converted into DMT, because it feels that way? Psilocin is deaminated and glucuronidated before excretion, not demethylated / dealkylated. MAOIs like moclobemide inhibit MAO, they don't induce demethylating enzymes that aren't there in the first place.
I think that instead MAOI's prevent breakdown of psilocin as well as secondary alkaloids like mono alkylated tryptamines. Without the MAOI such secondary tryptamines may already act as a competitive MAOI just by being MAO substrates but when there are more potent MAOIs ingested they may play an even more active role. (I have experience with mushrooms + harmala by the way).
Whether subjectively mushrooms with MAOIs feels more like an oral DMT trip is a different matter, since oral DMT trips also involve MAOIs it is not really that big of a surprise that they may feel alike.

Quite right - I can see what people mean when it seems more DMT-like but can see no way at all that it would actually convert psilocybin to DMT; It is simply the subjective effects are more impressive than psilocybin alone. It maybe as you say secondary indoles, but I was under the impression that the MAOI inhibited the partial breakdown of the primary tryptamine; consider also, in the case of harmalas - they are indoles themselves and psychedelic in themselves

 

[《Plasticity》]

Nvm... not even gonna start 8)

 

[Ismene]

Whether subjectively mushrooms with MAOIs feels more like an oral DMT trip is a different matter, since oral DMT trips also involve MAOIs it is not really that big of a surprise that they may feel alike.

It's more than that they feel alike tho - they're exactly the same. The open eye visuals of oral DMT are unique and very different to those of psilocybin.

but can see no way at all that it would actually convert psilocybin to DMT

Me neither Ron, but I've eaten as much oral DMT as any human being in history and psilocybin plus moclobemide is indistuingishable from oral DMT. It's not "sort of a bit like it" - it IS an oral DMT trip. Once you've seen oral DMT visuals you know them instantly and they can't be recreated on any other drug except DMT or psilocybin plus moclobemide.

 

[red22]

I read that long term use of MAOIs decreases effects because of the long term, "therapeutic" effect on serotonin. One time use, however, increases effects. I once took moclobemide with a really low dose of MG seed extract. The body high was so strong, I thought I would need to go to the hospital. Note that I took way more moclobemide than I was supposed to because I had received it in the form of a pure powder and I was guessing the dose and I got my measuring spoons mixed up. The body high was initially pleasant. And I've used the same dose of MG seeds without moclobemide and there was no such body high and I've used large doses of moclobemide on its own and there was no effect whatsoever. Combined with MG seeds, however, there was intense, undeniable synergy. Super low dose of MG seeds, so the extent of the effect was a body high (I wasn't looking to trip). I just remembered I also did the same thing with the MAOI, Nardil (tiny dose of MG seeds + 60 or 90 mg of Nardil) and remember experiencing euphoria and an increased body high.

 

[Ismene]

How did you get powdered moclobemide red? Had somebody crushed up the tablets?

Interesting that it had an effect on LSA - perhaps it might have an effect on LSD.

 

[red22]

How did you get powdered moclobemide red? Had somebody crushed up the tablets?

A guy who sells chemicals had it up on ebay. It was a pure powder, as I already said, not crushed up tablets. Guy's ebay profile indicated that he had good connections.

If anybody wants uncontrolled chemicals, though, I encourage them to search the CAS number of the chemical and contact any chemical suppliers that turn up.

Interesting that it had an effect on LSA - perhaps it might have an effect on LSD.

Here's an exchange between you and another user on this:

rtg: Yes, I've tried several times LSD and moclo combo. The doses were for LSD: from 150 to about 400ug; for moclo 300-450mg. No negative effects noted
ismene: What did you think of LSD and moclo? Did you notice much difference to a standard LSD trip?
rtg: Little more physical stimulating than normal LSD trip, the effects on psychic were rather normal, except that it was harder and longer. Moclo is an inhibitor, which in itself has no psychoactive effect, so there is no effect on experience

26-06-2011
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/578692-Dmt?p=9772813&viewfull=1#post9772813

 

[Ismene]

I've heard other people say moclo decreases the effects of LSD and others say it has no effect so I'm leaning towards the theory that any alleged effects were down to the placebomine.

 

[swilow]

Me neither Ron, but I've eaten as much oral DMT as any human being in history and psilocybin plus moclobemide is indistuingishable from oral DMT. It's not "sort of a bit like it" - it IS an oral DMT trip. Once you've seen oral DMT visuals you know them instantly and they can't be recreated on any other drug except DMT or psilocybin plus moclobemide.

So when your tripping, you are able to accurately say that the hallucinations you are currently hallucinating are the exact same as those you experience on another hallucinogen? Forgive me for requiring somewhat more impartiality and credibility. How do you know that oral DMT is not actually just giving you the exact same hallucinations as mushrooms and a MAOi? :D

I'm amazed you are still saying that Ismene after four years and now Solipsis' post above, which categorically informs you that it is not possible for the human body to ever turn psilocybin into DMT anymore then it is possible to synthesise LSD in your armpit.

 

[Ismene]

So when your tripping, you are able to accurately say that the hallucinations you are currently hallucinating are the exact same as those you experience on another hallucinogen?

Yep willow baby, that is what I'm saying. The visuals you get on oral DMT are unique and very memorable.

which categorically informs you that it is not possible for the human body to ever turn psilocybin into DMT

I'm not telling you how it works willo, I'm telling you what happens. Oral DMT and mushrooms and moclo create exactly the same effect. The lord works in mysterious ways his woodwork to perform.

 

[red22]

I've heard other people say moclo decreases the effects of LSD and others say it has no effect so I'm leaning towards the theory that any alleged effects were down to the placebomine.

Like I said I was just messing around and did a tiny dose of MG seed extract and more more moclobemide than I should have done and I got a cocaine-level body high (not cocaine-level euphoria though). I thought I would need to go to the hospital because it was getting so intense (once again, I later determined that I did like 3-4 times as much moclobemide as I was supposed to). The idea that that was placebo is absurd.

 

[Ismene]

So how much moclo did you take? Have you simply overdosed on moclo rather than enhanced any psychedelic effects?