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Stimulants Maybe the Meth Has Changed?

G_Chem

Moderator: OD
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
7,881
I’d like to further entertain the idea Meth in the US has changed somehow. Before I continue I hope this isn’t a repeat but I tried looking a bit to not find anything.

It appears there has been over the past 5yrs a shift in the way p2p is produced to the nitrostyrene method. Producing two impurities unique to the nitrostyrene route, N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine.

“Methamphetamine profiling data is then presented to show that nitrostyrene related profiles have been dominant in the United States for the last 3 years.” (As of 2019.)


And some more info from another article..

“The emergence of N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine in seized MA has recently triggered the nitroalkene chemistry. The two impurities result from a Knoevenagel reaction of benzaldehyde and nitroethane to form a nitrostyrene.

Toske et al. referred to this method as a nitrostyrene method (NTS) or a nitropropene method. The catalytic activities of butylamine/cyclohexylamine influence the conversion of the P2P precursors. The catalysts react with benzaldehyde to form imine, which then reacts with the nitroalkane to form a nitrostyrene as an intermediate. The reaction mixture at this step contains nitrostyrene and extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine with a significant reaction potential. Based on a reaction proposed by Hass et al., nitrostyrene converts to P2P in the presence of iron powder and hydrochloric acid. The extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine can then react with P2P to form the stable N-butylamphetamine, and N-cyclohexylamphetamine elucidated in MA seizures.

Since 2015, the two impurities were detected in MA seizures collected in the USA. The identification of the two impurities has been fundamental in tracking the P2P based MA synthesized by the nitrostyrene chemistry.” (As of 2020.)


Now I couldn’t find info on what concentrations these impurities are found out and there is scant info regarding pharmacology but I did find this..


To boil down what I’m reading in this article, n-butylamphetamine was the weakest of all the substituted Amphetamines tested. Of the bunch it was the only one that didn’t increase the rate of the guinea pig atria and wasn’t very reinforcing.

But despite it not increasing atria rate like all the other Amphetamines it was 16x more potent to reduce rats milk intake compared to Amphetamine or Meth.

I know I’m extrapolating a great deal here but this impurity sounds like a great anorexic but a horrible recreational drug. Especially if we compare to the few other butyl Amphetamines known to exist like MDBU which was pretty much inactive.

Bupropion is a chloro substituted butylcathinone, an NDRI. It seems the butyl sub makes for reuptake inhibitors which don’t often play well with releasers.

So there we have evidence for psychoactive impurities that may potentially weaken the meth high, and seems to correspond with all these users complaining of changes. I don’t personally use it enough or enough different batches to yet know but felt it interesting this recent emergence of impurities matches fairly well with the timeline individuals on here have talked about.

-GC
 
Nice contribution to the debate. I don’t know if you are correct but I’d say you’ve provided enough supporting evidence to make it a reasonable hypothesis for a non-expert to advance.
 
I am super glad to see some real insight into this other than old heads saying it ain't like the old days. I do not use meth but have tried it a few times as well as growing up around users. The classic post is like required on drug forums, "Why isn't such and such like it used to be? I used for 10 years-." MDMA has the same phenomenon but I think a huge part is getting older and changing as a person along with tolerance. My aunt who is a career junkie said that one time and I used a test kit to show that yes it is clean, go to sleep pleeease and take some TLC for at least a few days auntie lol.
 
I found this last year I think and I still think it has some truth to it
https://fakestimwarnings.wordpress....h-n-isopropylbenzylamine-aka-n-iso-aka-death/
Which bits so you think are ‘truth’? It’s been floating around in different versions for several years and most things it claims are about as valid as those made in The Protocols of The Elders of Zion.

The bit about how to identify n-iso vs meth is particularly wrong since different reaction methods and production conditions can give high quality meth that is cloudy or transparent, brittle or hard, long shards or round pebbles, more or less moist…and so on.
 
The meth is also racemic with this route therefore having the nastier L enantiomer. I was under the impression all meth was enantiopure D meth from pseudo shipped from India to Mexican labs.
 
The meth is also racemic with this route therefore having the nastier L enantiomer. I was under the impression all meth was enantiopure D meth from pseudo shipped from India to Mexican labs.
Usually this route gives racemic MA. But according to most sources it is separated to yield d-meth.
Racemic MA generally does not form crystals.

But again there is a lot of debate going on.
 
Racemic MA generally does not form crystals.

Sorry. I believe you are mistaken here. There is no reason stereoisomers do not form crystals. Individual crystals can remain enantiomerically/isomerically pure - with the l- and r- molecules taking specific aggregated positions together in the one crystal lattice as it grows. Although some racemic salts may not from true crystals they nonetheless still from compound crystalline solids.

d-meth and l-meth have identical physical chemical properties (apart from chiral direction of course) - what makes you think they will not form crystals?
 
I’d like to further entertain the idea Meth in the US has changed somehow. Before I continue I hope this isn’t a repeat but I tried looking a bit to not find anything.

It appears there has been over the past 5yrs a shift in the way p2p is produced to the nitrostyrene method. Producing two impurities unique to the nitrostyrene route, N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine.

“Methamphetamine profiling data is then presented to show that nitrostyrene related profiles have been dominant in the United States for the last 3 years.” (As of 2019.)


And some more info from another article..

“The emergence of N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine in seized MA has recently triggered the nitroalkene chemistry. The two impurities result from a Knoevenagel reaction of benzaldehyde and nitroethane to form a nitrostyrene.

Toske et al. referred to this method as a nitrostyrene method (NTS) or a nitropropene method. The catalytic activities of butylamine/cyclohexylamine influence the conversion of the P2P precursors. The catalysts react with benzaldehyde to form imine, which then reacts with the nitroalkane to form a nitrostyrene as an intermediate. The reaction mixture at this step contains nitrostyrene and extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine with a significant reaction potential. Based on a reaction proposed by Hass et al., nitrostyrene converts to P2P in the presence of iron powder and hydrochloric acid. The extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine can then react with P2P to form the stable N-butylamphetamine, and N-cyclohexylamphetamine elucidated in MA seizures.

Since 2015, the two impurities were detected in MA seizures collected in the USA. The identification of the two impurities has been fundamental in tracking the P2P based MA synthesized by the nitrostyrene chemistry.” (As of 2020.)


Now I couldn’t find info on what concentrations these impurities are found out and there is scant info regarding pharmacology but I did find this..


To boil down what I’m reading in this article, n-butylamphetamine was the weakest of all the substituted Amphetamines tested. Of the bunch it was the only one that didn’t increase the rate of the guinea pig atria and wasn’t very reinforcing.

But despite it not increasing atria rate like all the other Amphetamines it was 16x more potent to reduce rats milk intake compared to Amphetamine or Meth.

I know I’m extrapolating a great deal here but this impurity sounds like a great anorexic but a horrible recreational drug. Especially if we compare to the few other butyl Amphetamines known to exist like MDBU which was pretty much inactive.

Bupropion is a chloro substituted butylcathinone, an NDRI. It seems the butyl sub makes for reuptake inhibitors which don’t often play well with releasers.

So there we have evidence for psychoactive impurities that may potentially weaken the meth high, and seems to correspond with all these users complaining of changes. I don’t personally use it enough or enough different batches to yet know but felt it interesting this recent emergence of impurities matches fairly well with the timeline individuals on here have talked about.

-GC
This is fantastic. So, If these impurities exist , then what can you do to remove them?
\
 
I’d like to further entertain the idea Meth in the US has changed somehow. Before I continue I hope this isn’t a repeat but I tried looking a bit to not find anything.

It appears there has been over the past 5yrs a shift in the way p2p is produced to the nitrostyrene method. Producing two impurities unique to the nitrostyrene route, N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine.

“Methamphetamine profiling data is then presented to show that nitrostyrene related profiles have been dominant in the United States for the last 3 years.” (As of 2019.)


And some more info from another article..

“The emergence of N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine in seized MA has recently triggered the nitroalkene chemistry. The two impurities result from a Knoevenagel reaction of benzaldehyde and nitroethane to form a nitrostyrene.

Toske et al. referred to this method as a nitrostyrene method (NTS) or a nitropropene method. The catalytic activities of butylamine/cyclohexylamine influence the conversion of the P2P precursors. The catalysts react with benzaldehyde to form imine, which then reacts with the nitroalkane to form a nitrostyrene as an intermediate. The reaction mixture at this step contains nitrostyrene and extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine with a significant reaction potential. Based on a reaction proposed by Hass et al., nitrostyrene converts to P2P in the presence of iron powder and hydrochloric acid. The extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine can then react with P2P to form the stable N-butylamphetamine, and N-cyclohexylamphetamine elucidated in MA seizures.

Since 2015, the two impurities were detected in MA seizures collected in the USA. The identification of the two impurities has been fundamental in tracking the P2P based MA synthesized by the nitrostyrene chemistry.” (As of 2020.)


Now I couldn’t find info on what concentrations these impurities are found out and there is scant info regarding pharmacology but I did find this..


To boil down what I’m reading in this article, n-butylamphetamine was the weakest of all the substituted Amphetamines tested. Of the bunch it was the only one that didn’t increase the rate of the guinea pig atria and wasn’t very reinforcing.

But despite it not increasing atria rate like all the other Amphetamines it was 16x more potent to reduce rats milk intake compared to Amphetamine or Meth.

I know I’m extrapolating a great deal here but this impurity sounds like a great anorexic but a horrible recreational drug. Especially if we compare to the few other butyl Amphetamines known to exist like MDBU which was pretty much inactive.

Bupropion is a chloro substituted butylcathinone, an NDRI. It seems the butyl sub makes for reuptake inhibitors which don’t often play well with releasers.

So there we have evidence for psychoactive impurities that may potentially weaken the meth high, and seems to correspond with all these users complaining of changes. I don’t personally use it enough or enough different batches to yet know but felt it interesting this recent emergence of impurities matches fairly well with the timeline individuals on here have talked about.

-GC
It's a very rich field, i.e., there are so many ways to make meth and other amphetamines based on policies, access to specific materials etc., so I'm not that surprised that weird impurities are altering the meth and/or the high itself.

I haven't done tweak In years, but just when I stopped using the stuff I heard of people getting weaker batches because it was being cut with shit like MSM and it definitely doesn't help that the shake and bake method was introduced after they started cracking down on the P2P cooking.
 
I think you're onto something 4MeAmp showed up as impurity in Europe because of precursor impurity recently
 
Something is wrong with most of it today. Sometimes it’s possible to get clean stuff but even then..you never know when your going to get a panic attach shard even in the good bags.

The other day I smoked a small shard out of a “ok” bag and must have gotten a shitty compound or levo isomer because for the next 10 hours my heart raced at 130bpm, stomach felt full, had to slam down alcohol to calm down. It didn’t wake me up at all, no euphoria, just panic.

It’s weird because some of the harder shards in the same bag were great and clean. Doesn’t make sense. It’s like the cartels fuck up so bad they’re anti drug. People want clean and would pay 10x the price just for pure d isomer.
 
I’d like to further entertain the idea Meth in the US has changed somehow. Before I continue I hope this isn’t a repeat but I tried looking a bit to not find anything.

It appears there has been over the past 5yrs a shift in the way p2p is produced to the nitrostyrene method. Producing two impurities unique to the nitrostyrene route, N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine.

“Methamphetamine profiling data is then presented to show that nitrostyrene related profiles have been dominant in the United States for the last 3 years.” (As of 2019.)


And some more info from another article..

“The emergence of N-butylamphetamine and N-cyclohexylamphetamine in seized MA has recently triggered the nitroalkene chemistry. The two impurities result from a Knoevenagel reaction of benzaldehyde and nitroethane to form a nitrostyrene.

Toske et al. referred to this method as a nitrostyrene method (NTS) or a nitropropene method. The catalytic activities of butylamine/cyclohexylamine influence the conversion of the P2P precursors. The catalysts react with benzaldehyde to form imine, which then reacts with the nitroalkane to form a nitrostyrene as an intermediate. The reaction mixture at this step contains nitrostyrene and extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine with a significant reaction potential. Based on a reaction proposed by Hass et al., nitrostyrene converts to P2P in the presence of iron powder and hydrochloric acid. The extractable cyclohexylamine/butylamine can then react with P2P to form the stable N-butylamphetamine, and N-cyclohexylamphetamine elucidated in MA seizures.

Since 2015, the two impurities were detected in MA seizures collected in the USA. The identification of the two impurities has been fundamental in tracking the P2P based MA synthesized by the nitrostyrene chemistry.” (As of 2020.)


Now I couldn’t find info on what concentrations these impurities are found out and there is scant info regarding pharmacology but I did find this..


To boil down what I’m reading in this article, n-butylamphetamine was the weakest of all the substituted Amphetamines tested. Of the bunch it was the only one that didn’t increase the rate of the guinea pig atria and wasn’t very reinforcing.

But despite it not increasing atria rate like all the other Amphetamines it was 16x more potent to reduce rats milk intake compared to Amphetamine or Meth.

I know I’m extrapolating a great deal here but this impurity sounds like a great anorexic but a horrible recreational drug. Especially if we compare to the few other butyl Amphetamines known to exist like MDBU which was pretty much inactive.

Bupropion is a chloro substituted butylcathinone, an NDRI. It seems the butyl sub makes for reuptake inhibitors which don’t often play well with releasers.

So there we have evidence for psychoactive impurities that may potentially weaken the meth high, and seems to correspond with all these users complaining of changes. I don’t personally use it enough or enough different batches to yet know but felt it interesting this recent emergence of impurities matches fairly well with the timeline individuals on here have talked about.

-GC
Dude it HAS to be. I know i’m not imagining this.
 
I just got some “sold as” pure d isomer. Was pricey and it came as a powder.. with way less of a taste to it when vaped (barely any actually). Reminds me of the gram of pure d-meth I got a decade back from a professional chemist.

Shits great. It feels like more of a heady high, vision got brighter, and more indications of possibility of easy psychosis - that feeling when the dopamine is too high. One hit and it felt like dopamine was already a bit too much. But it lacked the jitters and panic. Also my vision became more fluid/fast.

It’s bizarre how much meth varies, I know there are differences because I can have many bags from different sources. Some have different smells, they look different, soft or hard shard, this powder d isomer advertised is the best so far. One thing I notice is the “meth smell” isn’t there like most meth that gives off that weird odor.

The powder has me up for days not planning on it, wide awake mentally, normal meth sometimes barely really jolts me awake (it’s more of a physical anxiety energy) Kinda compulsive vs the shittier meth (with whatever mystery compounds, maybe a little levo is leftover, like adderall it could change the d-meth high or even block receptors)

Definitely worth paying more to try to find d isomer, half those vendors lie, and the reviews are written by methheads so ya know how that goes but it’s worth it to gamble and pay for any type of advertised d isomer, I got it cuz the reviews were “way more” enthusiastic and looked like it might be true. Sure seems like it.


So I don’t know how so many tests can come back saying most meth is near pure, how many samples get tested for isomers? What if they are missing some compounds because no one is sure what they are? Or maybe if its 2% levo, maybe that’s enough to destroy the quality for that bag. Sometimes science isn’t perfect and I’m sure with the right people and resources (multiple different ways to test, for as many compounds as can be tested, LCMS, GC, NMR, test for tiny trace amounts of leftover synth chems that could potentially wreck havoc on the meth buzz everyone is always complaining about - it’s real, there’s a whole spectrum of unwanted effects, some are mild some weird, some are just extra physical side effects)
 
Also I was thinking about how everyone who takes adderall knows about the few bad generic brands. People complain about way worse effects, I’ve had these pills and it feels like the dextro is way lower and levo too high. Huge difference (in a bad way). So maybe even a tiny bit of levomethamphetamine will block some of the dextro effects while altering the experience, adding anxiety.

Or maybe a tiny bit of leftover synth compounds somehow interact or block certain receptors.

— one thing I noticed, is that I will never experience psychosis with cartel meth, even if it’s “ok” (meaning, worked but far from perfect). With this d-meth, I felt on the edge of psychosis. I actually heard some mild voices after just one skipped day of sleep. So pure d isomer really seems to let the full dopamine thing happen. Something about the crappy meth that can even make you sleepy after enough.
 
Meth is so inconsistent. Honestly there is definitely something up with it. The stuff I tasted lately was high motivation, high focus, high sex drive and kept me up for 2 days - a single session of aprox 70-100mg.

But no real rush after vaping it. Just felt good but not amazing. My eyes dilated quite a lot, it looked like I was on acid. My gf knew I was on something strait away from my eyes where as meth normally doesn't mess with my pupils much.

Kinda weird stuff. Little to no come down after sleeping. Just mild tiredness but I did skip a sleep.. Didn't feel much different to doing 2 day with just caffeine/will power really. No real desire to redose either - low to no 'fiendish' trait, even though smoking it normally pulls that up quite a bit. Literally had a session and stayed up for 2 days without redosing despite having plenty in front of me.

It wore off almost bang on 48 hours. Like I was feeling great and alert at hour 47 then bang, I'm super tired and need to sleep. Most of the time meth lingers for 3 days or more, I go to sleep on that 2nd night still buzzing and struggle to get to sleep but always do.

I definitely prefer the stuff that makes me feel like superman after one hit. Although I do way more risky shit and act like a bit of a lunatic when I've smoked that kinda meth. This new stuff I recently tried is way more 'therapeutic' feeling. Like you could use it regularly and not go crazy. I dunno, it was kinda weird and hard to put my finger on. I remember thinking at one point if you gave someone this that never tried meth but thought it was hardcore with a pcp-esque reputation, they would be gobsmacked how mild and' friendly' it is. Not at all the kinda buzz that imo is quite accurately depicted(in some ways atleast) in the movie 'spun'. More of a 'super Adderall' or something.
 
I don’t think it’s the 2% levo. If you read stories of the old racemic peanut butter biker crank that shit actually kept you up longer! L-meth has a longer half life and alters the pharmacokinetics of d-meth.

I truly believe it is butylamphetamine. I’ve given enough evidence in enough places that hasn’t really been matched far as I’m concerned. Look at bupropion compared to cathinone.

-GC
 
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