Harm Reduction Mitragyna speciosa (kratom)

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

For the sake of staying on the topic of mitragyna speciosa, I'd be happy to message with you on some of your questions. With that said, it's certainly not medical advice and I don't know all that much about this stuff. One can absolutely die from heroin overdose via any ROA and dependency will occur with repeated use regardless of ROA.

I'd hate for someone trying to kick to come along and find a bunch of conversation about heroin in the mitragyna speciosa HR thread for the sake of their sanity.

I do speculate that heavy kratom use could be detrimental to the kidney's with long term use but there again is not any reliable and consistent evidence pointing to this. Multiple systems within our bodies are engaged constantly in a magnificent balancing act with an unbelievably narrow range for changes within the system to occur.

Eating a ton of kratom, I could see how this may stress some of these systems in the long run, but again, nothing definitive yet. Just a speculation of mine.

You are correct in saying that kratom does not have the same level of abuse potential as stronger opioids or opiates. And I would assume functional use is less of a challenge across the board with kratom; as you said it's hard to imagine someone sitting in a basement only consuming kratom constantly as one often does with other substances, and I would agree with you generally speaking. However, I would also bet money that someone has had that experience, probably someone even here on BL. There's always some outliers. Also, kratom use doesn't exist in a vacuum so to speak. Many people (myself included) use kratom as another drug in the toolbox and alongside many other substances.

Gotcha I get it. Inevitably it has been frustrating to perpetually live in fear of kratom withdrawals though. I've had to bring bags with me and do crazy things like eat it before showering in the bathroom if I had to stay at someone's house for a while lol. It feels a little sketchy. Not that kratom withdrawals are that horrible, but they're bad enough to be quite uncomfortable and make me want to just sleep all day with absolutely no energy. The withdrawals are bad enough to make me cave in and buy more when I've attempted to quit.

I suppose a slow taper is the best way to get off kratom. I've kicked other stuff, but in a way kratom's legality makes it actually harder for me to kick. I can just purchase more whenever the withdrawal peaks. I've always rationalized kratom use by stating "well at least it's not *insert here*" but as each month passes the feeling is becoming less and less impressive. I'm at currently about 8-15 grams daily and sometimes more. So my doses aren't ridiculous or anything or high enough to promote toxic withdrawal symptoms. It's still mentally VERY unpleasant to go through.

For me kratom withdrawal symptoms are:
-Severe fatigue (can't keep my eyes open!)
-Random aches and pains
-Anxiety
-Physical glow of discomfort (I can't explain this it's just a weird sensation)
-Restless legs and arms which prevent me from sleeping at night. This is by far the worst symptom!

I've found that the withdrawal doesn't have the same kind of depression aspect as real withdrawal from stronger opies. But the restless leg thing is appalling with kratom specifically. I've never been able to overcome that symptom as it's hellish and I always end up caving in and just going back to my routine doses. I'm not sure how dependent the brain becomes with kratom in terms of the natural endorphin system--probably not as much as real opiates, but the brain doesn't seem to be as dependent on kratom for mood stability as it does for other opiates. I am planning to get off kratom entirely this summer. It's going to be quite the ride after 2 years of daily use.

 

[Painful One]

Guys,

I think I took too much of the Kratom.
I am really dizzy.
When will this pass?
Is there anything I can do to tone it down?

I got in some of the extract kind today and I underestimated the amount needed.

Thank you!

 

[mtu mwendawazimu]

I got a bit dizzy on my 18th gram last night. I just turned the lights off and laid down. Had some pretty euphoric thoughts and the nausea passed in about 30 minutes.

 

[Painful One]

I got a bit dizzy on my 18th gram last night. I just turned the lights off and laid down. Had some pretty euphoric thoughts and the nausea passed in about 30 minutes.

Thanks Bro!
I will do that.
Listen to some music and maybe take a nap.

I got some of the extract kind in and it is potent!

 

[aspiringchemist]

Painful One - I find ondansetron (zofran) incredibly helpful for kratom nausea. If you can access that, I'd go for it. Rx only but most docs seem ok with prescribing it; especially as an adjunct to opioids.

Dizinnes definitely can occur when too much is ingested; especially if on top of morphine (if that was taken as well). As Madness said, laying down tends to help. Most of the usual tricks for opioid nausea tend to help. Though ondansetron knocks it out completely for me. I've experimented on myself with and without ondansetron and at doses of 15+ grams T&W I would vomit at 30 minutes post ingestion every time.

I have found making tea to be less nausea inducing and easier on the bowels. I welcome the constipating effects but at the amount I take daily it's a lot of plant material to stuff through there... magnesium citrate for the win!

I love some good extract!!! Hard to come by a reliably potent product but I've found 1 or 2.

 

[aspiringchemist]

GMOTC - if you're jumping from oxycodone to kratom or any opioid to kratom, you're essentially continuing to ingest an opioid and skirt withdrawal a major degree. It would reason that then ceasing kratom would produce stronger withdrawal symptoms than someone who didn't stay plugged in to one opioid or another prior to kratom.

Also, I feel your pain on the use of kratom in public. I dont leave the house without my next dose ever and haven't in years. I toss n wash in public restroom stalls every day with a bottle of water. It surely sucks; the short half life and duration of effects are one of the reasons I would choose to be on a maintenance opioid (for my chronic pain and autoimmune condition). I know the option is there and I used to, but around my parts that doesnt happen anymore without regular urine drug testing and judgement from doctors... just not willing to do it right now.

I can say that at my 50g/day, as well as frequent use of UEI, Gold Reserve and other isolated extracts that the withdrawal is very real and very uncomfortable imo. There's many more active compounds within kratom than just mu receptor agonists like traditional opioids. This likely has something to do with the different withdrawal experience.

I was guilty of derailing the thread! Hope that didn't come across as judgmental.

Please feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss things further!

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

GMOTC - if you're jumping from oxycodone to kratom or any opioid to kratom, you're essentially continuing to ingest an opioid and skirt withdrawal a major degree. It would reason that then ceasing kratom would produce stronger withdrawal symptoms than someone who didn't stay plugged in to one opioid or another prior to kratom.

Also, I feel your pain on the use of kratom in public. I dont leave the house without my next dose ever and haven't in years. I toss n wash in public restroom stalls every day with a bottle of water. It surely sucks; the short half life and duration of effects are one of the reasons I would choose to be on a maintenance opioid (for my chronic pain and autoimmune condition). I know the option is there and I used to, but around my parts that doesnt happen anymore without regular urine drug testing and judgement from doctors... just not willing to do it right now.

I can say that at my 50g/day, as well as frequent use of UEI, Gold Reserve and other isolated extracts that the withdrawal is very real and very uncomfortable imo. There's many more active compounds within kratom than just mu receptor agonists like traditional opioids. This likely has something to do with the different withdrawal experience.

I was guilty of derailing the thread! Hope that didn't come across as judgmental.

Please feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss things further!

Oh no I totally agree with you that I'm putting a bandaid on a problem that should be fixed to begin with. When I started taking kratom daily it was in an attempt to get off of a much worse monstrous addiction that was beginning to take way too much out of me. I don't think that you've derailed the thread bc kratom is an underdiscussed/underappreciate substance. It's a viable way to quit harder opies and a safer alternative objectively as far as we know at the moment. However, I'd rather be hooked on kratom than something that burns you out and devastates you with the potential of withdrawal/steals your natural endorphins completely. Not too many people actually know what kratom is and it's important to negate misinformation about the substance and it's "harmful effects." It's just not comparable to morphine/heroin in potency nor side effects. Kratom withdrawal is less mentally catastrophic personally but it's bad enough to lock you into taking more (like real opiates). But again, I'm grateful I made the switch a year and a half ago.

I am actually planning to quit kratom late spring/before this summer as I will be traveling quite a bit and it's just not feasible to be a daily user at that point. It's also not fun to wake up in the morning and have to take an unpleasant green powder that occasionally causes diziness/nausea lol. Also, I have to say that after a year of use it is losing it's magical charm that elevates your mood.. like any perpetual use of a substance you eventually reach a point where the benefit is lost in my opinion. Not too many addictions are feasible for long-term use it seems.

 

[aspiringchemist]

Just purchased the MIT 45 tincture; the black 15ml bottle, 45% mitragynine extract supposedly. It certainly smells like other strong mitragynine extracts I've had.

Just took about 5ml with 7g white Borneo. Tongue instantly numbed in a similar way to cocaine. So far so good!

I'll likely polish off the rest this evening with some bali tea and diazepam. For now, gotta study!

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Just purchased the MIT 45 tincture; the black 15ml bottle, 45% mitragynine extract supposedly. It certainly smells like other strong mitragynine extracts I've had.

Just took about 5ml with 7g white Borneo. Tongue instantly numbed in a similar way to cocaine. So far so good!

I'll likely polish off the rest this evening with some bali tea and diazepam. For now, gotta study!

What do you think of the kratom liquid shots out there? I've tried the OPMS one and a different standard kind, but they just make me sleepy and I see no benefit over the powder.

 

[aspiringchemist]

What do you think of the kratom liquid shots out there? I've tried the OPMS one and a different standard kind, but they just make me sleepy and I see no benefit over the powder.

My bad not responding to your last post. I absolutely agree that there is way too much misinformation being spread about kratom and it is most definitely a sustainable approach in line with harm reduction to treating opioid addiction.

I have only tried OPMS and MIT-45. I still have the K-shot but I'm a little scared to take it as there's almost no info online.

I'm not a fan of the OPMS liquid shot. I think I commented on it earlier in this thread. Definitely was not too impressed as compared to their gold capsules.

I actually like this MIT-45 quite a bit. It's spendy (along the lines of OPMS) for one 15ml vial. Instead of downing the whole thing I've been using a dropper and taking 4-5 droppers full via sublingual route on top of my usual tea dose of ~18g in the evening.

Serious numbing activity in the mouth almost instantaneously, which indicates potency. All in all, just like OPMS, it's not necessarily sustainable to take daily, financially speaking. But as a treat or the way I've been using it on top of normal doses is nice.

I picked up a 3 pack of OPMS gold and the MIT 45 shot as I'm waiting for my next order of extract to arrive in the mail.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

My bad not responding to your last post. I absolutely agree that there is way too much misinformation being spread about kratom and it is most definitely a sustainable approach in line with harm reduction to treating opioid addiction.

I have only tried OPMS and MIT-45. I still have the K-shot but I'm a little scared to take it as there's almost no info online.

I'm not a fan of the OPMS liquid shot. I think I commented on it earlier in this thread. Definitely was not too impressed as compared to their gold capsules.

I actually like this MIT-45 quite a bit. It's spendy (along the lines of OPMS) for one 15ml vial. Instead of downing the whole thing I've been using a dropper and taking 4-5 droppers full via sublingual route on top of my usual tea dose of ~18g in the evening.

Serious numbing activity in the mouth almost instantaneously, which indicates potency. All in all, just like OPMS, it's not necessarily sustainable to take daily, financially speaking. But as a treat or the way I've been using it on top of normal doses is nice.

I picked up a 3 pack of OPMS gold and the MIT 45 shot as I'm waiting for my next order of extract to arrive in the mail.

Hmm I have to try the other ones. The OPMS pills are definitely otherworldly haha. The first time I took 3 thinking they were only so-and-so grams which was such a small amount of powder, and I had to lie down for a couple of hours because I was railed. I try to avoid OPMS pills on a regular basis bc they make your tolerance sky-rocket to kratom in general and they also lose their euphoria pretty quickly if you use them days in a row. But they imo are the best kratom product on the market rn. The fact that it's so little powder makes there barely be any nausea or dizziness involved.

 

[aspiringchemist]

Hmm I have to try the other ones. The OPMS pills are definitely otherworldly haha. The first time I took 3 thinking they were only so-and-so grams which was such a small amount of powder, and I had to lie down for a couple of hours because I was railed. I try to avoid OPMS pills on a regular basis bc they make your tolerance sky-rocket to kratom in general and they also lose their euphoria pretty quickly if you use them days in a row. But they imo are the best kratom product on the market rn. The fact that it's so little powder makes there barely be any nausea or dizziness involved.

30 minutes ago I poured the last half of the MIT 45 vial (~7ml) into a shot glass and threw it back with tea made from 15g red Borneo. The day's prescribed vyvanse is wearing off. So far it is most definitely strong.


Update: really liked the MIT45 shot. So much so that I just got another

Along with the tea, it produced a nice clean opioid euphoria starting at about 20 minutes and carried on until I passed out like 4 hours later.

I picked up a 2 pack of OPMS gold also and it's the old packaging! States 60mg mitragynine and 2.79mg 7-OH present per capsule. Idk about everyone else, but in the city where I live it seems all the stores have the newer labeled packaging which states 84mg mitragynine and .01mg 7-OH per capsule. Despite the fact that I've posted pics before, I cannot seem to get it to work right now.

Looking forward to trying these as I've only ever had the newer ones.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I don't know. Kratom has never done much for me. Always nauseated/weird stomach feelings, I assume from digesting plant matter like that, with barely any opiate effects.
I prefer traditional opiates and semi-synthetics, but I do agree it's about time we got some new maintenance options other than buprenorphine or methadone.

 

[flack219]

Recently coming off a 7 month suboxone addiction. The first 3 days nothing will help the withdrawal. After that about 40 grams a day of white Maeng da would atleast keep me feeling normal and without withdrawal but no noticeable opioid like high I use to get with kratom years ago. Today I did 10 grams red Maeng da, 5 grams trainwreck and a half mit 45 and I actually feel quite pleasant. Comparable to a newbie on a 7.5 Loratab. I know that doesn't sound like much but after so long of taking everything to just not be sick the slight buzz is actually really nice

 

[Xorkoth]

Guys,

I think I took too much of the Kratom.
I am really dizzy.
When will this pass?
Is there anything I can do to tone it down?

I got in some of the extract kind today and I underestimated the amount needed.

Thank you!

Way late for this, but the best thing you can do is lay down and close your eyes. Listen to some music. If this ever happens (and it will if you use kratom enough), that's the cure. Smoking weed will synergize really well, too, if you like weed, and will also make laying down with your eyes closed and music much more enjoyable. back in the day I used to take really big doses of kratom and once the dizziness set in, I'd smoke weed and lay down and listen to music, it was just part of the experience for me.

 

[hylite]

Omg. This could be me writing all of this. You know anyway.
The exact same thing happens to me. Above post's of the Kratom.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

You have a Hasselhoff type of video? I'd love to see. Remember, sharing is caring! hehe j/k

Yes, poppy tea is very inconsistent as far as how you will feel when you drink it. You reminded me that's what annoyed me most about it. Plus, there's no real way of knowing how much opiate you're ingesting. Dangerous. I grew to dislike it.

Yes that's my experience, the dosage is very inconsistent. In other words you have to start titrating upwards.

The bad thing is the slow onset and long duration. The nausea last at least 3 times as long compared to Kratom if you overdo it.

Oh ya! I think I mentioned it somewhere before. While taking lyrica I blacked out on dxm, kratom, lyrica, diazepam, and baclofen after being awake for 48 hours partying. My wife video recorded me while I was completely naked, nodding in and out, and rolling around on the floor for hours. When I woke up the next day she made me watch the whole thing.

For some reason when I took lyrica (as prescribed) it seriously potentiated kratom. I would nod consistently, knees buckling at the toilet type nodding, which NEVER happened from kratom until on lyrica (pregabalin).

Gotta love wives for doing that, been there.

When I was taking Kratom I was prescribed Pregabalin. And it it add's to the effect's of Kratom. My body was already accustomed to it so adding it didn't have me crawling naked on the floor.

But it sure was a good combo, asides the effects Pregabalin has on judgement an coordination.

 

[aspiringchemist]

Recently coming off a 7 month suboxone addiction. The first 3 days nothing will help the withdrawal. After that about 40 grams a day of white Maeng da would atleast keep me feeling normal and without withdrawal but no noticeable opioid like high I use to get with kratom years ago. Today I did 10 grams red Maeng da, 5 grams trainwreck and a half mit 45 and I actually feel quite pleasant. Comparable to a newbie on a 7.5 Loratab. I know that doesn't sound like much but after so long of taking everything to just not be sick the slight buzz is actually really nice

Glad to hear you found some relief man and great job. I just wanted to say the extract products can be incredibly potent (a few in particular), some rivaling traditional opioids. The withdrawal from these extracts is fucking god awful.

I was a long term heroin, methadone, morphine etc guy. Got clean for a decade. Then began using kratom when I was fed up with the pain doctors.

Anyway, relief is good. Again, great job. But in the interest of harm reduction I have to warn you of the serious potential for dependency they cause.

I see you've already mentioned mixing strains and are now using reds. Imho obtaining this wide spectrum of alkaloids increases the effectiveness (just my speculation, nothing to back it up).

 

[Just a little pinprick]

I got a bit dizzy on my 18th gram last night. I just turned the lights off and laid down. Had some pretty euphoric thoughts and the nausea passed in about 30 minutes.

I use Nauzene for nausea and it works instantly, as soon as you chew the tablet you feel better…