(OPED) Its about who you know not what you know v. Breaking into an industry

[JoshLobbs]

Breaking into an industry or career can be hard. Many people start their careers by going to college and getting a degree (this includes me lol). Although for many careers you gain better knowledge and experience from getting a lower level job in the industry and working your way up.

Years of experience, good references and paychecks look much better on a CV than a degree.

Although degrees are good for demonstrating you have technical knowledge of your chosen job roll, I believe that degrees are overhyped by society at large.

For example, someone who is going to drive a tractor for 12hrs a day does not need to be know how and why stomata open and close, or what the difference between xylem and phloem are, nor the specifics of chloroplasts.

My point is that a lot of these trade school degrees are just a hodgepodge of topics some exam board think is related to the industry they have never worked in. And you get better experience and notoriety actually working in the industry.

So unless you are starting a company or you want a technician level job degrees might not be for you.

 

[Jerry Atrick]

Breaking into an industry or career can be hard. Many people start their careers by going to college and getting a degree (this includes me lol). Although for many careers you gain better knowledge and experience from getting a lower level job in the industry and working your way up.

Years of experience, good references and paychecks look much better on a CV than a degree.

Although degrees are good for demonstrating you have technical knowledge of your chosen job roll, I believe that degrees are overhyped by society at large.

For example, someone who is going to drive a tractor for 12hrs a day does not need to be know how and why stomata open and close, or what the difference between xylem and phloem are, nor the specifics of chloroplasts.

My point is that a lot of these trade school degrees are just a hodgepodge of topics some exam board think is related to the industry they have never worked in. And you get better experience and notoriety actually working in the industry.

So unless you are starting a company or you want a technician level job degrees might not be for you.

Interesting topic. In the small amount of research I've done, many trade schools are priced higher than public universities.... like as much as private colleges. So even trade schools are out of reach for a lot of folks who don't want to take out loans (see my student loan rant thread).

I went to college and even got a master's degree yet the longest (5 years) and highest paying job I ever had was a "who you know" type of deal that didn't require any sort of higher education. I had been good friends since high school with the now owner of a rapidly growing construction company. I honestly regret even going to grad school considering the insane loan debt I accrued to do so. The only thing I got from it was learning to read more thoroughly and write more critically. But hindsight being 20/20, I really didn't need to attend grad school.

 

[Jabberwocky]

breaking into any field is ridiculously hard these days.

when i finished my PhD i was burned out by academia and just wanted any coding job. i could only find 3 jobs that would even interview me with no 'industry' experience despite having spent my entire PhD coding. thank fuck i got one. i realised quickly that one wouldn't work out and put my CV back online after only 3 months industry experience. i was inundated with calls.

then, when i realised i missed science and was desperate to get a coding job that also used my scientific skills, i was being told jobs like that literally did not exist. in the end i had to go back into academia in a different field where the skills from my education were very applicable. i'm still in that field now. i had a gap in my CV after losing a job due to having an out of control drug problem. when i was stable enough in recovery to go back to employment i got the first job i applied for (there's a shortage of bioinformaticians). i've been back in employment a while now and can pretty much dictate the terms of my employment.

back to the OP. there is DEFINITELY a lot of 'who you know.' i have multiple standing job offers, you don't get those if you don't know anyone. they are from previous colleagues who know the standard of my work and what i'm like to work with, so while it is unfair to people who might want those jobs, its not blatant nepotism. in one job we hired a guy who would never have got his CV past a recruiters desk, he had like 2 GCSEs and was doing service jobs. but his friend put him forward based on the coding he'd done in his spare time so we interviewed and he was great, did not regret that hire.

for me, my educaton was vital to getting my job, given its pretty academic. but totally, for most industries, getting experience is much more valuable.

anyone having trouble getting into an industry, find related meetups in your area, volunteer in something relevant, anything so that when someone sees your CV, they already know you. it shouldn't be this way, but it is.

 

[hylite]

^ you're a good teacher. that's quite amazing to learn.

 

[arrall]

breaking into any field is ridiculously hard these days.

when i finished my PhD i was burned out by academia and just wanted any coding job. i could only find 3 jobs that would even interview me with no 'industry' experience despite having spent my entire PhD coding. thank fuck i got one. i realised quickly that one wouldn't work out and put my CV back online after only 3 months industry experience. i was inundated with calls.

then, when i realised i missed science and was desperate to get a coding job that also used my scientific skills, i was being told jobs like that literally did not exist. in the end i had to go back into academia in a different field where the skills from my education were very applicable. i'm still in that field now. i had a gap in my CV after losing a job due to having an out of control drug problem. when i was stable enough in recovery to go back to employment i got the first job i applied for (there's a shortage of bioinformaticians). i've been back in employment a while now and can pretty much dictate the terms of my employment.

back to the OP. there is DEFINITELY a lot of 'who you know.' i have multiple standing job offers, you don't get those if you don't know anyone. they are from previous colleagues who know the standard of my work and what i'm like to work with, so while it is unfair to people who might want those jobs, its not blatant nepotism. in one job we hired a guy who would never have got his CV past a recruiters desk, he had like 2 GCSEs and was doing service jobs. but his friend put him forward based on the coding he'd done in his spare time so we interviewed and he was great, did not regret that hire.

for me, my educaton was vital to getting my job, given its pretty academic. but totally, for most industries, getting experience is much more valuable.

anyone having trouble getting into an industry, find related meetups in your area, volunteer in something relevant, anything so that when someone sees your CV, they already know you. it shouldn't be this way, but it is.

Excellent advice, thank you for sharing this. I’m planning on going into a STEM field (most likely chemistry) so this helped me out a lot.

 

[Joey]

The way I get around working how I do these days is entirely through networking and by building up a portfolio. I can get media and writing gigs pretty handily now and committee work too. I also have been far, far more often volunteer than paid. I found an 'industry' that's up and coming and I'm starting to treat the aspects of getting paid work or making sales now as being a business. Even altruistic sorts of work require funding and business savvy to get by in any way on. I am barely getting by. I couldn't be happier with the kind of career I'm fleshing out with all the false starts and all.

 

[Ds]

White collar or Blue collar jobs ?
One requires uni the other requires on the job training.

I've known people who go to power lineman school to work for the power company, and yet , there is more $ in the fiber field vs standard electric company work.

I drove my car into the ground to get a shitty job as a ground hand, and now run my own truck.

Only disadvantage is safety, fuck safety is terrible with this company. $ good

 

[lonelyDude]

two words

be better.

next two words

prove it.

 

[lonelyDude]

if you study business start an online business

if you study programming write lots of programs and put them up for the world do projects etc

if your a musician make albums work with people get gigs

if you want to be a mechanic rebuild all your friends cars while doing your school to find the apprenticeship.

BE BETTER and prove it .

if your doing it actively in your life you will be better than 99% of students who only want the money and not the skill.

I want to pay for your skills man not your wish for money.

 

[lonelyDude]

on school for changing paths

times have changed over here and the days of going to uni and passing your exams and getting your ticket are long gone (much to my dislike).

now its group work and with group work comes a whole new set of problems like fucking lazy people (the other 99% out there).

you will do there work and your work hand it in and get HD's or as close to for everyone.

if they break the mold they owe you big time.

if they don't your still dux scores and no one will stop you.

trust no one to do anything for you as you must BE BETTER than all that want that same job.

Remember if you really want it you can have it but it must be worked for.

that's like doing three degrees for the one sorry but its the way things are here now.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Where my opinion is coming from: In my generation, a degree was the expectation. In college, you realize there are a lot of idiots getting a degree, but the degree is required to get the interview and then you can try and differentiate yourself against the rest of the lemmings. Now, with roughly 3 decades experience, I'm seeing trends I'd like to share. And no, the degree is no longer required to get the interview - know WHO is more important than know HOW.

Most of this is because the hiring manager or company is taking a risk, looking to pay a person to do a job, and it may not work out. If they've got a fistful of apps for one opening, having the support of someone the hiring manager trusts will go a lot further than the hiring manager taking that gamble based on what's on a piece of paper and what they get from a 30min interview. Lots of 'wrong hires' are still made today based on people bluffing their way through the interview. It comes down to TRUST. Does the company trust you can and will do the job well? Based on paper, they want the best paper. Based on someone's reference, that trumps paper.

Years of experience, good references and paychecks look much better on a CV than a degree.

Although degrees are good for demonstrating you have technical knowledge of your chosen job roll, I believe that degrees are overhyped by society at large.

Huge corporations still want a degree for the entry level interview, for a couple of reasons. First, those in hiring positions grew up with that expectation, they aren't going to let someone off the hook for it when they had to do it. Second, and more prevalent, is the fact that they see 100's of applicants for any given position, and a degree (or min years experience) are easy hurdles to put in place to filter down the field. Fair or not, it takes the first cut out of their hands and reduces their list of people to look at.

Smaller, or privately run, companies get fewer applicants and will afford the time to get to know you a bit better. Still, the best boost up the list of candidates is a good word in the ear of a hiring manager by someone they trust. Chances are, everyone is local, and even if you don't have personal contacts at least the past jobs will be listing local companies they know and have an opinion of.

The quoted line about experience > degree is very true once you've gotten 5+ yrs experience. It gives the hiring manager a better foundation upon which to place trust in you.

(there's a shortage of bioinformaticians)

There's a shortage of people who can even spell that. And a much sorter list of folks who know what it means. ;P

back to the OP. there is DEFINITELY a lot of 'who you know.'

For the white collar type jobs, LinedIn has become the networking haven. Most of the people you've ever worked with are there, and who they have worked with are there, and it greatly expands the 'who you know (or who knows you)' reach, both for finding opportunities but also for gaining reference - of what a job or company is like before you go there, and for a friend of a friend to help get a door opened for you somewhere. Even in this environment, you can grown and blossom without a degree - your performance and experience are on display, and closely connected to a bunch of 'who you know' to help you.

Blue collar I haven't done, so I'm guessing here, but I believe it is also a lot of who you know. Starting out at entry level jobs, the degree generally isn't needed as much as a good work ethic and willingness to learn. A few years in a given trade, and you will have the skills to move around and be building a reputation that moves with you. Those in the industry would recognize who you worked for, what folks say about your work, and that 'who you know' is very much at work in this environment.

= = = = =

Bit of tangent, but not. I've seen and heard recent years having a HUGE shift in realizing degrees aren't for everyone. Some folks aren't cut out for school, and requiring a degree of them is only going to launch them into the workforce with a big debt and a degree they don't want and can't use, if they even graduate. Vocational Technical (VoTech) schools are growing, both in demand and attendance, as HS kids are NOT being pushed to colleges if it isn't for them. Instead, getting the skills for a carpenter, plumber, builder, etc. are a viable and promising career path. I heard recent studies showed for every 5 plumbers/carpenters/etc that retire, only 2 are taking their place in the workforce. At the same time, population keeps growing which means housing and the demand for this work continues to grow. The stigma of getting your hands dirty (as opposed to getting a desk job with a degree) is fading, and entry salaries are livable. You can generally get work anywhere, and the companies are typically an integral part of that society (town, city, etc). Whether you stay with an existing service company, or eventually launch your own, I'm hearing more and more of people in these professions being in such demand that they can set their own hours and within 15-20y are knocking down six figures on par with their degreed friends but living how they choose, as opposed to how their employer wants them to. Bottom line, a non-degree career can be personally and financially rewarding, and comes back to building your reputation, establishing 'who you know'.

Coming back to more on topic, computer work is an odd area of work, IMO. Again, degrees get interviews when you are competing with 100's of others for the same opening, but in today's world there are so many gig jobs or smaller companies desperate for these skills, you can build a work history of solid experience and be able to present what you can do, with a network of references to back it up, that allows you to have a good career here without a degree. It's possible, and this non-degree path for these skills is growing, I believe.

 

[Jabberwocky]

For the white collar type jobs, LinedIn has become the networking haven. Most of the people you've ever worked with are there, and who they have worked with are there, and it greatly expands the 'who you know (or who knows you)' reach, both for finding opportunities but also for gaining reference - of what a job or company is like before you go there, and for a friend of a friend to help get a door opened for you somewhere. Even in this environment, you can grown and blossom without a degree - your performance and experience are on display, and closely connected to a bunch of 'who you know' to help you.

yes for sure. i hate linkedin but its a necessary evil for many. i only ever really go on there when i want a new job or see someone who isn't a recruiter has messaged me. it definitely makes you look more credible to have some concisely described experience on there.

Coming back to more on topic, computer work is an odd area of work, IMO. Again, degrees get interviews when you are competing with 100's of others for the same opening, but in today's world there are so many gig jobs or smaller companies desperate for these skills, you can build a work history of solid experience and be able to present what you can do, with a network of references to back it up, that allows you to have a good career here without a degree. It's possible, and this non-degree path for these skills is growing, I believe.

computing is weird cos you really can learn it on your own. but i would say, learning on your own teaches bad habits, i say this cos its what i did. getting some tuition about good practise, as well as just learning tasks a,b,c, would be really helpful in getting someone considered for their first role. once someone has entrenched bad habits, they are hard to break and the technical debt mounts up.

there really is a very compelling argument not to do a CS or software engineering degree unless you have a strong academic interest. the amount you lose monetarily at the start by getting hired by smaller companies in very entry level jobs if you don't do one cannot be remotely comparable to the cost of a degree. but also its not just jobs and money, i loved doing my degree. you never have that level of freedom in any other scenario, that experience is great. but its a privilege to be able to twat about expensively for a few years and should not be treated as an indicator of someones ability to do most jobs.

 

[Joey]

if you study business start an online business

if you study programming write lots of programs and put them up for the world do projects etc

if your a musician make albums work with people get gigs

if you want to be a mechanic rebuild all your friends cars while doing your school to find the apprenticeship.

BE BETTER and prove it .

if your doing it actively in your life you will be better than 99% of students who only want the money and not the skill.

I want to pay for your skills man not your wish for money.

This is a good post. I've been through app 4 of these paths to one extent or another.

I made the most money machining.

As a hobby. Coding and white hat hacking with study to the other hats. I dont do much with this. It's a tough scene so be careful if you get connected with anon or anything. Know who your friends are. I spend many hours reading and little to application.

Writing. Thats my gig in a variety of ways. The only really good paying is BCCSU alcohol use disorder and continuuing care committees. I'm registered with Health Canada for this and a couple other involvements. my pride and joy so far is my work on overdose mortality statistics. Some stuff crossed over to the 2021 census and beyond.

Music is the most personal thing I do. Also an hours consuming hobby. I can record and mix myself like a whiz now, albeit to a medium level amateur skillset so far.

 

[Shady's Fox]

@lonelyDude

Do you understand the beauty of a simple thing such as having let's say 3hr / free on a computer -- while having a grime life? imagine that person now is a plain robot outside as opposed to inside because of even in the most configured environment because we all gotta make money, we have to surround ourselves with toxiCity! so point being that you say to someone to be 1000% testoterone in every breathing moment of their lives is WILL never be even thinkable, not length of possibility. Is called "Penumbra".

 

[Shady's Fox]

me with one business left because my skate shop got no clients.. everyone nowadays uses BMX's what to do, aggresive rollers are a myth too apparently similar to trap/rap music, with that 1 being a bar still I need to do blue collar jobs such as a few days ago working at a private mansion project!

 

[JoshLobbs]

Huge corporations still want a degree for the entry level interview.

what i'm saying is that if you are drinking buddys with jeff bezos, or whom ever, you might be able to ask them for a job.

OR Or if your friends with jeffs drinking buddy you could ask them to talk you up.

 

[Shady's Fox]

what i'm saying is that if you are drinking buddys with jeff bezos, or whom ever, you might be able to ask them for a job.

OR Or if your friends with jeffs drinking buddy you could ask them to talk you up.

many couriers nowadays don't do the living contrast that someone behind Amazon's wrap deposit products does. Those working at wrapping products because you know, they get penalty if they steal or fly to jail two second before they thought to -- they do like in terms of Euro, I USE euros when I talk about money.. is universal and a lot more stable than all other distros, they can get up to 2.5/3k euro, for just sealing your probably manufactured defect IPhone.

I even knew someone and he said that during Christmas, he does like even the barrier of 4k euro prime with 2017 being overall the most active year in electronics. Couriers do can reach to 1k but like after 5years and come on, 5 years for 1k?.. i mean the rent is tss.. I dunno, if this fire doesn't catch any wind soon we'll wake up with a riot by 2037.

 

[lonelyDude]

@lonelyDude

Do you understand the beauty of a simple thing such as having let's say 3hr / free on a computer -- while having a grime life? imagine that person now is a plain robot outside as opposed to inside because of even in the most configured environment because we all gotta make money, we have to surround ourselves with toxiCity! so point being that you say to someone to be 1000% testoterone in every breathing moment of their lives is WILL never be even thinkable, not length of possibility. Is called "Penumbra".

not sure I understand this post

im not saying you have to be an android but really in my class I can go on discord anytime of the day or night and find most of the kids playing games or streaming sexual acts (its a way different world today)

I love unix like sco solaris irix AIX hpux you name it I love it.

so my games were playing with linux not diablo (though I love the game and use it as a break).

so simple I am better by miles than the rest in my class.

my scores sing it the fact im getting offered a future at the school before I even finished the first 6 months sings it.

I wrote a chess engine in three languages with full AI and network routines.

plays in the gui and in the shell using escape codes all written three times over java python and c++.


I am better and I have proven it.

I can pick and chose who I work with at school but I do not do this.

when it comes to group work I do three peoples work as I do not trust them to do it to my standard.

I then let them give it a go and if they are not up to scratch I give them there part of the work done correctly and say not a word to the school.

the school knows this is happening but the students after I have finished with them understand the problems be it subneting or python code (no one wants to really learn C++ or assembly these days as there lazy and dont

want to be the best)

if I want money and I do not have the skills I was dishes.

I live on the street 6.8 out of 7 GPA.

be better and prove it if you dont my ai will eat you and trust me with the help I have had on this planet I will enjoy the sight.

everyone I have helped ended up fucking me over for my chemical knowlage.

I have made many rich yet I am homeless.

will that stop me.

no fucking way I am better.

truly its just a mind trick to re address what your priorities are.

but no android is no good our brains need down time to learn efficiently.

all of the AI guys know this, try getting your head around machine learning with out a break.

it takes years of work and no one could do it and come out with there brains still a solid in there head.

same for chemistry for me decades.

I am fully dyslexic and could not read or write till year nine.

I was kicked out of school after year ten so one and a half years of reading at school.

love your self love what you do and fuck the rest.


as an addition

I have taught martial arts for quite some time in the past and what I am talking about is not a chemical/hormone and is available to all even our animal friends (ye like cats and dogs)

its call discipline and to be honest its the key to most of the peoples problems here.

take responsibility for your actions fix them you are better than you think.

and train some discipline into your self as once you have it the rest is a piece of cake.

while I sit in my car typing I remember two generations before and think I am so lucky not to be at war as they were or as the Ukrainians and many other countries are.

if we can sit here screaming I am hanging out help me then we really dont have it that bad as the true suffering that is possible on this planet is far far worse.

hence why the third world is happy to send us poison.

they know the truth you all had a choice and many of the problems they have were not there choice but a consequence of the west wanting power and control so rich little stuck up shits

can go its so hard here and I need to get my fix be it drugs beef or tech.

how many use apple products.

did any of you think about the people that died from cancer due to the hexane they exposed people to.

of course they were chinese and we all hate the chinese dont we.

have any of you read flowers in the blood (of course you have)

we are a product of our own actions and if we do not wish to care about others how can we be upset when they dont care about us.

the answer is if you dont want to take it dont take it.

if you want to do it then do it.

only you have the keys to your own life.

 

[Shady's Fox]

Martial arts, I also did kickboxing for a while, two years not in head but around 1.5

didn't felt otherwordly but added an education layer where was signaled by the brain

 

[lonelyDude]

as a side note ive just broken captcha with machine learning yippy.