Quitting Methadone (that bastard)

[Fertile]

Is methadone x5 morphine in potency? If you look at most conversion tables, they give a daily equivalent not dose equivalent. A few nations do the right thing and specify (R) methadone (it's the (S) methadone that is cardiotoxic) AKA L-Polamidon™ and levomethadone. I thought it (the (R) isomer) was around morphine in potency?

I mean, I'm happy to be wrong, but I did look at many closely related compounds (all racemic mixtures) and they were all around ½ morphine in potency.

Although HerbsQuit is happily off methadone (and I think that is a good move), I've noticed some slightly worrying details of methadone. Taken orally it's bioavailability can vary between 30% and 80%. Many sources give slightly different values but they all have a huge range. Now it's supposed to accumulate in the body so that you will over 7-10 days reach a steady state. BUT. People given methadone chronically actually metabolise it faster so you might actually start getting lower and lower plasma levels over the months and indeed years.

I mention this because I am prescribed OxyContin for chronic severe pain but it isn't working out. My own pharmacist suggested that I might do better with methadone (Physeptone tablets) but it seems like most doctors don't know much about methadone. Sorry to hijack thread. Very anxious.

 

[HerbsQuit]

Is methadone x5 morphine in potency? If you look at most conversion tables, they give a daily equivalent not dose equivalent. A few nations do the right thing and specify (R) methadone (it's the (S) methadone that is cardiotoxic) AKA L-Polamidon™ and levomethadone. I thought it (the (R) isomer) was around morphine in potency?

I mean, I'm happy to be wrong, but I did look at many closely related compounds (all racemic mixtures) and they were all around ½ morphine in potency.

Although HerbsQuit is happily off methadone (and I think that is a good move), I've noticed some slightly worrying details of methadone. Taken orally it's bioavailability can vary between 30% and 80%. Many sources give slightly different values but they all have a huge range. Now it's supposed to accumulate in the body so that you will over 7-10 days reach a steady state. BUT. People given methadone chronically actually metabolise it faster so you might actually start getting lower and lower plasma levels over the months and indeed years.

I mention this because I am prescribed OxyContin for chronic severe pain but it isn't working out. My own pharmacist suggested that I might do better with methadone (Physeptone tablets) but it seems like most doctors don't know much about methadone. Sorry to hijack thread. Very anxious.

Dont worry i'm happy u r here. So if the bioavailability varies does that mean the half life actually also varies?

I have taken MTD in many different countries, in Germany it really last more than 48 hours. In other country 24, in this one no more than 20.

If the half life of this one is really short i must be careful because the codeine will eventually get me high.

I read somewhere (no energy to find it for u, also my IQ is below 100 right now) that Turmeric may reduce opiate tolerance.

Also there was a .pdf file on google about dose equivalent of each opiate/opiod for medical professionals when they wanna switch a patient from one opiate to another. That's where i read MTD is 5x Morphine in dosage.

 

[HerbsQuit]

Is methadone x5 morphine in potency? If you look at most conversion tables, they give a daily equivalent not dose equivalent. A few nations do the right thing and specify (R) methadone (it's the (S) methadone that is cardiotoxic) AKA L-Polamidon™ and levomethadone. I thought it (the (R) isomer) was around morphine in potency?

I mean, I'm happy to be wrong, but I did look at many closely related compounds (all racemic mixtures) and they were all around ½ morphine in potency.

Although HerbsQuit is happily off methadone (and I think that is a good move), I've noticed some slightly worrying details of methadone. Taken orally it's bioavailability can vary between 30% and 80%. Many sources give slightly different values but they all have a huge range. Now it's supposed to accumulate in the body so that you will over 7-10 days reach a steady state. BUT. People given methadone chronically actually metabolise it faster so you might actually start getting lower and lower plasma levels over the months and indeed years.

I mention this because I am prescribed OxyContin for chronic severe pain but it isn't working out. My own pharmacist suggested that I might do better with methadone (Physeptone tablets) but it seems like most doctors don't know much about methadone. Sorry to hijack thread. Very anxious.

And Fertile, i don't know ur reason why u want to take Methadone. It's a pain in the ass. Unless u live in EU where it is FREE and u can take home dose up to 1 month....

Not to mention....the side effects....
If u r female, 50mg u stop having period. At first u may think it a blessing until u go to obgyn and the doc told u, "U have menopause at 25."

Ur hair thins down...u wake up with cramps...ur bone and back is so brittle like u r 92.

But if u indeed want it, go steady at lowest dose possible..like 40/30mg... If u can.

 

[BenzoEnthusiast]

Oh i thought they blocked it coz the naughty "kids" at the clinic use Benzo to stop Methadone from working then they shoot Heroin.

No its definetly not that lol. I shouldnt laugh really because. methadone, benzos and heroin.....well they wont likely last long doing that. Thats a triple threat right there. Heroin works more than fine on methadone.

 

[Fertile]

And Fertile, i don't know ur reason why u want to take Methadone. It's a pain in the ass. Unless u live in EU where it is FREE and u can take home dose up to 1 month....

Not to mention....the side effects....
If u r female, 50mg u stop having period. At first u may think it a blessing until u go to obgyn and the doc told u, "U have menopause at 25."

Ur hair thins down...u wake up with cramps...ur bone and back is so brittle like u r 92.

But if u indeed want it, go steady at lowest dose possible..like 40/30mg... If u can.

I don't WANT to take it but I cannot get out of bed, get dressed or walk without potent analgesia. Interesting that the German methadone is so much better. Evidently it IS (R) methadone that they use. It's much safer and won't cost that much more... but it WILL be more so the UK government won't do it.

Methadone is also an NMDA antagonist so it can ease pain most other opioids cannot. The only others I know of are ketobemidone and levodromoran neither of which are available here in the UK. I purely want to reduce the pain enough to function. My wife was the first to identify methadone as a possible alternative and so she talked to the pharmacist as well.

But the UK just got hit with a shortage of methadone tablets! When will they be back? November! THAT is worrying.

 

[BenzoEnthusiast]

Methadone was created by Germany right? For the soldiers wounded in WW2??

 

[HerbsQuit]

Methadone was created by Germany right? For the soldiers wounded in WW2??

Yes. The German MTD is the best i ever tried out of other countries.

It also works as it's supposed to and as it claims to be. I could taper 5mg a week with NO WITHDRAWAL at all up to zero. Only after zero the wd started tho.

They give in very tiny ml like 6ml, 5ml, and can even go down like 0.9ml up to 0.1ml. It's pure. No syrup. Taste like alcohol burns ur throat like hell.

Other countries give like 60ml, 50ml, with syrups and shit. Forcing us to take sugar everyday.

If i can get my hand on German MTD i would taper to zero, can be done really quick, and i probably wont be in this shit right now.

 

[BenzoEnthusiast]

Yes. The German MTD is the best i ever tried out of other countries.

It also works as it's supposed to and as it claims to be. I could taper 5mg a week with NO WITHDRAWAL at all up to zero. Only after zero the wd started tho.

They give in very tiny ml like 6ml, 5ml, and can even go down like 0.9ml up to 0.1ml. It's pure. No syrup. Taste like alcohol burns ur throat like hell.

Other countries give like 60ml, 50ml, with syrups and shit. Forcing us to take sugar everyday.

If i can get my hand on German MTD i would taper to zero, can be done really quick, and i probably wont be in this shit right now.

Yeah i am in the U.K so got that shitty sugary syrup thats likely still in my bone marrow to this day. It was ok at the time though.. being constantly sedated.
Its just the long term effects that i dislike.

 

[Señor Moreno]

Day 6 continuation
I woke up 3 am. Took Codeine 100mg+ Tramal 50mg. No Clobazam.
I reduced my coffee.
I took 1 Magnesium Brand Dr's Best high absorption (this pill calms me down a bit and stop constipation.) and 1 Passion Flower Extract.
I have headache on upper right side of my head. Maybe coz i mixed Passion Flower with Magnesium. Sometimes it happens.

In Afternoon i took just 100mg Codeine no Tramal.
I took a local Flu& Wet Cough meds with Paracetamol 500 mg, Phenylephrine HCL 10 mg, Glyceryl Guaiacolate 50 mg, Bromhexine HCL 8 mg.
This OTC Flu&Cough meds works like Tramal , fuck even better! I was nodding a bit. So weird huh?

I honestly don't really like Tramal coz it's also an SNRI. During my research it said that Opiate/Opioid withdrawal is actually because over activity of Norepinephrine.
So wouldn't taking Tramal that blocks NE reuptake just cause wd worse?!?

Then i took 5mg Diazepam so i could eat. Diazepam makes me sooo hungry!

After that i took a nap. I woke up mid sleep i thought i was sleeping on sofa but huh no i was on my bed.

6pm for my next dose i took again just 100mg Codeine. Nothing else.

10pm i was so sleepy i took 50mg Codeine and 5mg Diazepam. I woke up at midnight. Craving for chocolate cake so i ate some.
Took the 0.15mg Clonidine. I made a mistake of cutting it in half. No effect. Take another half. No effect. Took Clobazam and passed out until 5:45am. I woke up coz my cat just cannot stop meowing.

Today day 7 i plan to not take Tramal at all. I made it yesterday just once in morning. Maybe i can do it today.

My Methadone withdrawal is weird. Everyday different symptoms. First 3 days the most severe is just the panic attacks and restless leg syndrome. Then the anxiety.

The next day muscle pain.

Then next day fibromyalgia.

Then day after no fibromyalgia but headache and nausea and depressed.

Today i woke up just pissed at my cat no muscle pain no fibromyalgia no panic attacks but i will have to see what new withdrawal symptoms today.

Each day is better.. But maybe coz i havent reach day 15 yet...

Honestly i am so scared to death of day 15.

At times i want to just give up and take Methadone again. I was good on it. Except for the withdrawals each morning at 4am waking up sick. And sackled to clinic.

I am so worried when i am off all these opiate/ opioid what's my life gonna be?!?!?

Will i ever be happy again without euphoria?

Will i be a depressed woman until i die??

What if the start of my addiction is actually because my brain doesn't work like normal people and i actually need Methadone/ opiate/ opioid?

I am very negative today. Sorry

I would be proud of myself " if I were you", but I hate that sentence because nobody is you.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I am amazed of how you are enduring this big challenge ...
Hope you can find pregabs on your country as they are far superior than ( to?) gabapentin.

One thing: you said you are 45, more or less like me, please try and keep an eye on your blood pressure No obssesion, tho.. It is often silent, but bastard like these kind of things (or any stress inducing situation, really) to fuck us over....

Keep us posted.

 

[HerbsQuit]

Day 7
Just Codeine whole day 100mg 4x a day
No more Tramal! Yeaaah!
2.5mg Diazepam around lunch so i can eat

At night for sleep i took 1 Magnesium pill and 1 vit D3. I slept like a baby until my asshole of a cat woke me again at 3am.

Withdrawal symptom: some fibromyalgia, but i assume it has something to do also with acid reflux. Usually if i take antacid the symptom gets better.

I also take probiotics everyday. It helps a lot with the "angry" bacterias in my stomach that is probably having a revolt and burn stuff since now they don't get methadone anymore.

The new good bacteria settlers help calm them down.

My WD symptom is also weird. It is most intense during the usual time i take MTD up to 8 hours later then slowly declines. At 6pm i feel better and at night i don't feel so much wd. I usually take my MTD at 4-5am.

I feel some sting on my right lower stomach after i take Codeine tho. I should eat it with food next time.

I can't wait to reduce my Codeine too and get off this shit for good.

 

[HerbsQuit]

I would be proud of myself " if I were you", but I hate that sentence because nobody is you.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I am amazed of how you are enduring this big challenge ...
Hope you can find pregabs on your country as they are far superior than ( to?) gabapentin.

One thing: you said you are 45, more or less like me, please try and keep an eye on your blood pressure No obssesion, tho.. It is often silent, but bastard like these kind of things (or any stress inducing situation, really) to fuck us over....

Keep us posted.

Thank you so much for your kind words and support. It makes me happy

 

[plumbus-nine]

Did you ever hear about using dissociatives (NMDA receptor antagonists) to overcome opioid addiction? These receptors are intertwined with mu opioid ones in some obscure way by which dissos downregulate opioid tolerance. This means you don't have to go through withdrawal to lower the dosage of your opioid. I was on 60mg methadone and 600mg morphine respectively for 3 years until I thought enough was enough and I first titrated down with the aid of pregabalin and then megadosed (60+ mg) the pharm memantine. This allowed me to quit without withdrawal misery. Unfortunately is memantine in most places difficult to acquire because it's only approbation is against Alzheimer's disease but it is available online and some docs begin to know about its off-label uses. Read a paper where pain docs were prescribing DXM (the OTC cough suppressant; another NMDA antagonist albeit a dirty one) in low dose alongside opioids to keep tolerance in check.

After so many years it won't be easy but I see the possibility that NMDA antags can help you greatly as can pregabalin (this one is addictive by itself though - dissos too but only mentally, they usually don't cause withdrawal).

 

[HerbsQuit]

Did you ever hear about using dissociatives (NMDA receptor antagonists) to overcome opioid addiction? These receptors are intertwined with mu opioid ones in some obscure way by which dissos downregulate opioid tolerance. This means you don't have to go through withdrawal to lower the dosage of your opioid. I was on 60mg methadone and 600mg morphine respectively for 3 years until I thought enough was enough and I first titrated down with the aid of pregabalin and then megadosed (60+ mg) the pharm memantine. This allowed me to quit without withdrawal misery. Unfortunately is memantine in most places difficult to acquire because it's only approbation is against Alzheimer's disease but it is available online and some docs begin to know about its off-label uses. Read a paper where pain docs were prescribing DXM (the OTC cough suppressant; another NMDA antagonist albeit a dirty one) in low dose alongside opioids to keep tolerance in check.

After so many years it won't be easy but I see the possibility that NMDA antags can help you greatly as can pregabalin (this one is addictive by itself though - dissos too but only mentally, they usually don't cause withdrawal).

No this is new to me. Senor Moreno also suggested the same. My next doc appointment is next Monday, still 6 more days. I will tell him about it. In the mean time all i can do is just taper down the codeine if i can.

 

[HerbsQuit]

Did you ever hear about using dissociatives (NMDA receptor antagonists) to overcome opioid addiction? These receptors are intertwined with mu opioid ones in some obscure way by which dissos downregulate opioid tolerance. This means you don't have to go through withdrawal to lower the dosage of your opioid. I was on 60mg methadone and 600mg morphine respectively for 3 years until I thought enough was enough and I first titrated down with the aid of pregabalin and then megadosed (60+ mg) the pharm memantine. This allowed me to quit without withdrawal misery. Unfortunately is memantine in most places difficult to acquire because it's only approbation is against Alzheimer's disease but it is available online and some docs begin to know about its off-label uses. Read a paper where pain docs were prescribing DXM (the OTC cough suppressant; another NMDA antagonist albeit a dirty one) in low dose alongside opioids to keep tolerance in check.

After so many years it won't be easy but I see the possibility that NMDA antags can help you greatly as can pregabalin (this one is addictive by itself though - dissos too but only mentally, they usually don't cause withdrawal).

Oh and in one of my research on google it said Turneric can also lower opioid tolerance. It's so interesting.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...thways-discovered-for-curcumin-300741364.html

 

[HerbsQuit]

Hey

Neversick look what i found . I think u r right about the vit D3 deficiency.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/scitec...ds-supplements-may-help-combat-addiction/amp/

 

[plumbus-nine]

Oh and in one of my research on google it said Turneric can also lower opioid tolerance. It's so interesting.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...thways-discovered-for-curcumin-300741364.html

There are many supplements which are said to lower opioid tolerance or have other benefits on neural health but unfortunately many of them, like the often mentioned magnesium, or agmatine, are pretty weak and afaik don't help acutely with opioid withdrawal. It can't hurt to try them though. Please keep us posted, it's always intriguing to read about lesser known drugs and supplements, and their use.

When you're already on just codeine (didn't read the whole thread yet, sorry for that), then you might have overcome the worst already and chances are high that you could kick it soon with the aid of some things mentioned here. Memantine stands out because it's very clear headed, might have some initial clouding of the mind but nothing compared to the trip e.g. DXM brings when used higher than medically (above 60-120mg). But I've read that for some people DXM did work as well.

Hope your doc is open minded. Good luck!

 

[neversickanymore]

I would also like to see pain response comparisons in vitamin D normal and deficient subjects.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Vit D is the one synthesized by exposure to sunlight, isn't it?

Once I bought some high dosed drops during a winter and thought that the first dose caused some slight euphoria. I attributed it to placebo but who knows? Don't remember whether I've already been on an opioid back then but I think no, just DXM.

Problem is that opioids and specially opiates suppress testosterone production and this deficit causes symptoms like intolerance to coldness, decreased pain resistance, loss of drive, apathy/depression, muscle wasting. I've got all of them, it improved upon cessation but not fully, e.g. the intolerance to cold still persists and is quite annoying because the flat here is chronically cold. I'm literally sitting in front of my computer with jacket and long pants now, and it's fucking summer outside.

 

[HerbsQuit]

Did you ever hear about using dissociatives (NMDA receptor antagonists) to overcome opioid addiction? These receptors are intertwined with mu opioid ones in some obscure way by which dissos downregulate opioid tolerance. This means you don't have to go through withdrawal to lower the dosage of your opioid. I was on 60mg methadone and 600mg morphine respectively for 3 years until I thought enough was enough and I first titrated down with the aid of pregabalin and then megadosed (60+ mg) the pharm memantine. This allowed me to quit without withdrawal misery. Unfortunately is memantine in most places difficult to acquire because it's only approbation is against Alzheimer's disease but it is available online and some docs begin to know about its off-label uses. Read a paper where pain docs were prescribing DXM (the OTC cough suppressant; another NMDA antagonist albeit a dirty one) in low dose alongside opioids to keep tolerance in check.

After so many years it won't be easy but I see the possibility that NMDA antags can help you greatly as can pregabalin (this one is addictive by itself though - dissos too but only mentally, they usually don't cause withdrawal).

OH DXM u mean dextromethorphan? That thing made me have instant wd. When i was on Methadone i was precribed dxm, in 15 mins i feel so sick, my back becomes painful especially on my spinal cord.
I am also allergic to Clozaril. If i take that i feel extreme muscle pain and extreme spinal cord pain, then there was like electricity flares from the base of my spine to my brain causing me seizure. Brrrr

I avoid dxm and clozaril like a plaque

 

[neversickanymore]

I would also like to see pain response comparisons in vitamin D normal and deficient subjects.

Vitamin D Deficiency and Pain: Clinical Evidence of Low Levels of Vitamin D and Supplementation in Chronic Pain States

A number of studies suggest a link between low levels of 25-hydroxy vitamin D and incidence of acute and chronic pain. Clinical studies of vitamin D supplementation in patients with known vitamin D deficiency have shown mixed results in improving pain ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

so are we seeing a potentiate of opiates or a reduction in the pain they treat?