Bupe Too much Suboxone prescribed from doc? Also hypogonadism is a deal breaker.

[tarman]

So I've been using heroin for 4 years off and on. I'm able to quit each time, but then however long after, I jump back on. Never shot it, snorted about .25 or .3 a day. Always used kratom to get off it. But then grew to resent kratom because the mental part that it Shields you from is what gets emphasized when you try to quit it. So this time when I quit, I went to the Suboxone clinic and I was pleasantly surprised to hear from my doc that I was actually getting h and that 80% of the people that go in there are getting fentanyl.

This clinic is real chill. But that's part of my issue. They seem to almost be encouraging you to take more. I was initially prescribed 16 mg per day and now I've been prescribed 24mg, but I'm only taking 16 or 20 and I really want to whittle down. Like I don't feel like I'm pushing myself if I wait longer to take my dose.

The one thing that is bumming me out is that my sex drive is not back. I mean, it's a little back, but nothing compared to when I used kratom to quit.

I'm rambling, but I had a few questions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 24 mg a day is a lot, right? I mean in the counseling sessions, the other people in the room are taking like 32mg or 48mg a day and I thought there was a ceiling effect. Maybe they just grew more receptor sites or something. But again, this place almost seems to encourage it. And I've heard nothing but horror stories about jumping off Suboxone. I thought you had to get yourself down to like 1 mg or a half milligram before you even thought about it.
I would like to taper, it's been 2.5 weeks since I started subs and I feel like I can take way less. I guess one question is, at 2.5 weeks in, how adapted am I to the subs? I feel like now is the time to pounce and push myself. My goal would be to jump off around Christmas when I get some time off of work.

This post didn't turn out the way I had envisioned it. Ultimately, it's the hypogonadism that is the problem and that's the deal breaker, otherwise I'd be fine to take this for however long. I wasn't shooting a gram a day, I was snorting a few points. I kinda want to believe I'm a prime candidate to go lower. What's your experience and thoughts, Suboxone pros? One thing I'm sensing about subs is that the withdrawal isn't going to be as emotional. But I could be wrong. I mean, I don't feel anything. Obviously it's doing something, but at least the kratom I could feel it. I guess that's a bad thing- to feel it.

Well I'm all over the place. Whatever you want to add will be welcome- any opinions, warnings, experiences. This clinic I'm going to- they want you to take a lot, whereas almost every other place in this town wants you to taper down fast. I get both sides of the argument, but I feel like I'm in the category of a relatively aggressive taper. I can handle some of the unpleasantness of early withdrawal. I dunno. It's tough navigating this, y'know?

 

[Keif' Richards]

Hey @tarman don't worry. Your plight has been heard and you're by no means the first to go through all of what you're going through. Yes, the clinics can be a little bit too generous in their dosage with the Buprenorphine. It really seems that the relation between benefit and further dependence just seems to become chaotic after the 8mg Buprenorphine per day mark. What does this mean?

Buprenorphine works its magic primarily by substituting for the effects of other Opioid agonists, specifically, Mu agonists. Buprenorphine is not like Methadone though, which is far simpler and more linear in character (higher dosage=more effects=call it a day). Buprenorphine begins to activate more and more of the Delta and Kappa Opioid receptors. These receptors have value, yes, but not so much value in the realm of Opioid dependence and recovery when you're essentially withdrawing from Mu-agonists specifically.

You will see that in clinical usage, fractions of a milligram are common with Buprenorphine and are often sufficient to treat moderate to severe pain in many populations. I really think that 8mg, even if it is a little dubious to say so, is probably the best standard from which to work. I think if you need more than 8mg Buprenorphine to arrest cravings, Methadone might be a better choice. Buprenorphine was never enough to take care of my cravings. It just put me into a purgatory between the two worlds where I wasn't really functioning well in either world.

I think your dosage is probably excessive and that going to such heights is in the interest of clinics, as they are probably getting paid by the weight of the Bupe they sell. Methadone is a little different, as there is not the same "gold rush" involved for Big Pharma being that Methadone is an older drug. That doesn't mean clinics don't try to get people hooked on higher and higher dosages so they can keep billing insurance.

The people I've spoken with over the years who have gotten truly, the most benefit from Buprenorphine, have been the ones taking 2mg-4mg per day or less. This is purely my opinion based upon my personal experiences, but they seem to be capitalizing on the drugs' benefits while not being reeled in to all of the negative shit.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

24 is definitely a lot.

It's common if you're just coming off a full agonist. It's also common for docs to leave you at this level of a maintenance dose for years.


I don't see much benefit in the higher & higher doses. I think doctors want you be on a lot because it will block other opioids. It will also keep your blood levels from dropping & rising (which IMO is bad if you need buprenorphine to stop cravings).

Plus everything the guy above me said.


PS : I actually dont' mind the lower sex drive. I've been on it for years. Some times it's welcomed, other times it isn't. But all in all, it hasn't disappeared completely.

I had my testosterone tested after being on bupe for 5 years and it was normal btw.

 

[Nas47]

So I've been using heroin for 4 years off and on. I'm able to quit each time, but then however long after, I jump back on. Never shot it, snorted about .25 or .3 a day. Always used kratom to get off it. But then grew to resent kratom because the mental part that it Shields you from is what gets emphasized when you try to quit it. So this time when I quit, I went to the Suboxone clinic and I was pleasantly surprised to hear from my doc that I was actually getting h and that 80% of the people that go in there are getting fentanyl.

This clinic is real chill. But that's part of my issue. They seem to almost be encouraging you to take more. I was initially prescribed 16 mg per day and now I've been prescribed 24mg, but I'm only taking 16 or 20 and I really want to whittle down. Like I don't feel like I'm pushing myself if I wait longer to take my dose.

The one thing that is bumming me out is that my sex drive is not back. I mean, it's a little back, but nothing compared to when I used kratom to quit.

I'm rambling, but I had a few questions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 24 mg a day is a lot, right? I mean in the counseling sessions, the other people in the room are taking like 32mg or 48mg a day and I thought there was a ceiling effect. Maybe they just grew more receptor sites or something. But again, this place almost seems to encourage it. And I've heard nothing but horror stories about jumping off Suboxone. I thought you had to get yourself down to like 1 mg or a half milligram before you even thought about it.
I would like to taper, it's been 2.5 weeks since I started subs and I feel like I can take way less. I guess one question is, at 2.5 weeks in, how adapted am I to the subs? I feel like now is the time to pounce and push myself. My goal would be to jump off around Christmas when I get some time off of work.

This post didn't turn out the way I had envisioned it. Ultimately, it's the hypogonadism that is the problem and that's the deal breaker, otherwise I'd be fine to take this for however long. I wasn't shooting a gram a day, I was snorting a few points. I kinda want to believe I'm a prime candidate to go lower. What's your experience and thoughts, Suboxone pros? One thing I'm sensing about subs is that the withdrawal isn't going to be as emotional. But I could be wrong. I mean, I don't feel anything. Obviously it's doing something, but at least the kratom I could feel it. I guess that's a bad thing- to feel it.

Well I'm all over the place. Whatever you want to add will be welcome- any opinions, warnings, experiences. This clinic I'm going to- they want you to take a lot, whereas almost every other place in this town wants you to taper down fast. I get both sides of the argument, but I feel like I'm in the category of a relatively aggressive taper. I can handle some of the unpleasantness of early withdrawal. I dunno. It's tough navigating this, y'know?

They say sublingual bupr. Is between 50;to 70 times more strong than morphine.In contrast to methadone(which is more familiar for me)feel ratiosomehow 1:10-1mg bupr. feel like 10mg methadone.Both very long acting.Anyway methadone is more pleasurable in low doses,but with heavy body load...Old real long acting opioid.Bupr. is somehow strange.The molecule is not like the others.But its not only a substitude tool.Its effective painkiller on its own.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

They say sublingual bupr. Is between 50;to 70 times more strong than morphine.In contrast to methadone(which is more familiar for me)feel ratiosomehow 1:10-1mg bupr. feel like 10mg methadone.Both very long acting.Anyway methadone is more pleasurable in low doses,but with heavy body load...Old real long acting opioid.Bupr. is somehow strange.The molecule is not like the others.But its not only a substitude tool.Its effective painkiller on its own.

This is true as well. Although it is still only a partial agonist.

But when ones tolerance to something like heroin drops significantly, buprenorphine can be a very powerful tool in it's own right.

 

[RUC4]

So I've been using heroin for 4 years off and on. I'm able to quit each time, but then however long after, I jump back on. Never shot it, snorted about .25 or .3 a day. Always used kratom to get off it. But then grew to resent kratom because the mental part that it Shields you from is what gets emphasized when you try to quit it. So this time when I quit, I went to the Suboxone clinic and I was pleasantly surprised to hear from my doc that I was actually getting h and that 80% of the people that go in there are getting fentanyl.

This clinic is real chill. But that's part of my issue. They seem to almost be encouraging you to take more. I was initially prescribed 16 mg per day and now I've been prescribed 24mg, but I'm only taking 16 or 20 and I really want to whittle down. Like I don't feel like I'm pushing myself if I wait longer to take my dose.

The one thing that is bumming me out is that my sex drive is not back. I mean, it's a little back, but nothing compared to when I used kratom to quit.

I'm rambling, but I had a few questions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 24 mg a day is a lot, right? I mean in the counseling sessions, the other people in the room are taking like 32mg or 48mg a day and I thought there was a ceiling effect. Maybe they just grew more receptor sites or something. But again, this place almost seems to encourage it. And I've heard nothing but horror stories about jumping off Suboxone. I thought you had to get yourself down to like 1 mg or a half milligram before you even thought about it.
I would like to taper, it's been 2.5 weeks since I started subs and I feel like I can take way less. I guess one question is, at 2.5 weeks in, how adapted am I to the subs? I feel like now is the time to pounce and push myself. My goal would be to jump off around Christmas when I get some time off of work.

This post didn't turn out the way I had envisioned it. Ultimately, it's the hypogonadism that is the problem and that's the deal breaker, otherwise I'd be fine to take this for however long. I wasn't shooting a gram a day, I was snorting a few points. I kinda want to believe I'm a prime candidate to go lower. What's your experience and thoughts, Suboxone pros? One thing I'm sensing about subs is that the withdrawal isn't going to be as emotional. But I could be wrong. I mean, I don't feel anything. Obviously it's doing something, but at least the kratom I could feel it. I guess that's a bad thing- to feel it.

Well I'm all over the place. Whatever you want to add will be welcome- any opinions, warnings, experiences. This clinic I'm going to- they want you to take a lot, whereas almost every other place in this town wants you to taper down fast. I get both sides of the argument, but I feel like I'm in the category of a relatively aggressive taper. I can handle some of the unpleasantness of early withdrawal. I dunno. It's tough navigating this, y'know?

I personally think taking anything for more than 3-4 weeks is just going from one addiction to another. I cold turkeyed from heroin and I don’t regret it. I think you need the bad horrible feeling to remember so you never do it again. Yesterday was exactly 3 Years clean for me. People I knew when I used that got on subs have relapsed several times. Most went back to using or switched to fenty or meth. I agree with someone who commented that the pharm companies don’t have your best interest at heart. The longer you start on subs, the more they make.
As for dosage, people I knew were on 4 or 8mg (if mg is the right measurement).
Good luck. Stay clean. With Fentanyl out there, you’ll OD. It’s not worth it.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Suboxone is grossly over prescribed in dosage.

I have been on pure unlimited fent or 140 mg IV oxy per day and really 4 mg was the max ever needed per day

You're going to feeling shit no matter what switching to bupe...but taking 16 or 32 mg a day is just a big waste of bupe

 

[G_Chem]

When I quit IV heroin, I only needed 1-2mg. It’s more effective at a lower dose IMO. 8mg just made me feel like garbage first time I tried it.

-GC

 

[Nas47]

I personally think taking anything for more than 3-4 weeks is just going from one addiction to another. I cold turkeyed from heroin and I don’t regret it. I think you need the bad horrible feeling to remember so you never do it again. Yesterday was exactly 3 Years clean for me. People I knew when I used that got on subs have relapsed several times. Most went back to using or switched to fenty or meth. I agree with someone who commented that the pharm companies don’t have your best interest at heart. The longer you start on subs, the more they make.
As for dosage, people I knew were on 4 or 8mg (if mg is the right measurement).
Good luck. Stay clean. With Fentanyl out there, you’ll OD. It’s not worth it.

Well addiction is strange animal even in from the viewpoint of psychiatry.Even cold turkeying through hell,would not be enough to not hooked again.

 

[tarman]

I hadn't visited here in a while. Thanks for all the responses, it really means a lot. I fell off the wagon again but the good thing is I have a ton of bupe. I have no benzos but I do have gabapentin. in a few days I'll be quitting again and I'm going to try to wait 24 hours if I can before I attempt the subs. I also have kratom, from a really good distributor. And the person who said if you're on it for more than a few weeks you're just trading one addiction for another is absolutely right. I thought this place was going to try to wean me off it ASAP. And the counseling sessions they make you go to several users were commenting how the other places in town take that approach.

So anyway starting Monday or Tuesday I'm going to be jumping off the old h again. I guess all things considered I can live with bupe for a while. I just don't have the fortitude and willpower to to quit with nothing helping. A couple years ago I quit with alcohol, and although that's not ideal, when you got nothing else it ain't bad.

Here's a question, would I be able to use the kratom to get me through long enough before I can start the bupe? Like can I use something like 20 or 30 grams of good quality kratom to get me to the 24-hour mark and then start the bupe?

I think I'm going to try multipronged approach to day one, maybe like 10 mg of Lope, 8 grams of kratom servings as needed, a little benadryl, a little dxm, and some gabapentin. To get me through until I can start the buprenorphine. Any recommendations that people have I appreciate it. I need to read through the pinned threads.

Thanks again for all the replied, it means more than you know, no matter what your opinion or comment was.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Hey @tarman don't worry. Your plight has been heard and you're by no means the first to go through all of what you're going through. Yes, the clinics can be a little bit too generous in their dosage with the Buprenorphine. It really seems that the relation between benefit and further dependence just seems to become chaotic after the 8mg Buprenorphine per day mark. What does this mean?

Buprenorphine works its magic primarily by substituting for the effects of other Opioid agonists, specifically, Mu agonists. Buprenorphine is not like Methadone though, which is far simpler and more linear in character (higher dosage=more effects=call it a day). Buprenorphine begins to activate more and more of the Delta and Kappa Opioid receptors. These receptors have value, yes, but not so much value in the realm of Opioid dependence and recovery when you're essentially withdrawing from Mu-agonists specifically.

You will see that in clinical usage, fractions of a milligram are common with Buprenorphine and are often sufficient to treat moderate to severe pain in many populations. I really think that 8mg, even if it is a little dubious to say so, is probably the best standard from which to work. I think if you need more than 8mg Buprenorphine to arrest cravings, Methadone might be a better choice. Buprenorphine was never enough to take care of my cravings. It just put me into a purgatory between the two worlds where I wasn't really functioning well in either world.

I think your dosage is probably excessive and that going to such heights is in the interest of clinics, as they are probably getting paid by the weight of the Bupe they sell. Methadone is a little different, as there is not the same "gold rush" involved for Big Pharma being that Methadone is an older drug. That doesn't mean clinics don't try to get people hooked on higher and higher dosages so they can keep billing insurance.

The people I've spoken with over the years who have gotten truly, the most benefit from Buprenorphine, have been the ones taking 2mg-4mg per day or less. This is purely my opinion based upon my personal experiences, but they seem to be capitalizing on the drugs' benefits while not being reeled in to all of the negative shit.

I just wanted to point out here that buprenorphine is an antagonist at delta & kappa, so it should not be "activating more & more" of them. Or at least that's what I've always read & believed.

 

[tarman]

What about the interaction between kratom and buprenorphine? I don't know as much about what kratom affects- but I was under the impression it has activity at the delta and kappa receptor sites. Can I use kratom in the 24 hours (or more) until I hit the right COWS score to start the bupe? Or just stick with some lope and gabapentin?

Maybe the gabapentin will be enough. I've never used gabapentin in the quantities needed to really help. But this time, I'm going for it. It has weeeeird effects on me. The visual distortions are disconcerting, but because it chills me out, I can deal. It still freaks me out. Plus, that's a listed side effect, so, par for the course and normal I've only ever taken like 600mg max- spread out over a few hours.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

What about the interaction between kratom and buprenorphine? I don't know as much about what kratom affects- but I was under the impression it has activity at the delta and kappa receptor sites. Can I use kratom in the 24 hours (or more) until I hit the right COWS score to start the bupe? Or just stick with some lope and gabapentin?

Maybe the gabapentin will be enough. I've never used gabapentin in the quantities needed to really help. But this time, I'm going for it. It has weeeeird effects on me. The visual distortions are disconcerting, but because it chills me out, I can deal. It still freaks me out. Plus, that's a listed side effect, so, par for the course and normal I've only ever taken like 600mg max- spread out over a few hours.

Kratom is overrated IMO but everyone is different and it might help. But I think the lower potency opioids don't seem to have as bad of a PWD as something like being dependent on heroin would.

I can switch back between tramadol & bupe without PWD and even hydrocodone and bupe without PWD.

Lope hangs around on the receptor much longer than Kratom though it doesn't do much CNS-wise. So there's always still that possibility of PWD.

I find microdosing bupe while using a full agonist can help the transition onto bupe a little easier. By taking microgram doses of bupe and then take your full agonist in ever tapering doses.

I find gabapentin to be a decent potentiator of some opioids (excluding stuff like hydrocodone/morphine), but the higher doses give me ataxia, like I've been drinking and I will bump into things and it doesn't really feel euphoric once you go higher.

I'd say maybe stick with kratom & gabapentin, as the lope won't do much for the mental part of withdrawal and the doses of lope required can be hefty & cause heart arrhythmia. Plus you can still get PWD taking bupe after you've become dependent on loperamide.

Kratom does affect delta & kappa more so than mu, I think. Buprenorphine is an antagonist at those two receptors. So I can't say for sure there might not be PWD from kratom. IME kratom has never given me the opioid effects I desire, so I was easily able to jump right back on subs without noticing any PWD. Activation of the kappa receptor often results in dysphoria supposedly.

Hopefully this helps you some tarman. I'd say either kratom with gaba or lope with gaba would be fine to use for the time being, but just remember that lope has an incredibly long half life & the constipation can be dangerous (even cause intestinal paralysis) in the doses needed for most relief.

 

[tarman]

Kratom is overrated IMO but everyone is different and it might help. But I think the lower potency opioids don't seem to have as bad of a PWD as something like being dependent on heroin would.

I can switch back between tramadol & bupe without PWD and even hydrocodone and bupe without PWD.

Lope hangs around on the receptor much longer than Kratom though it doesn't do much CNS-wise. So there's always still that possibility of PWD.

I find microdosing bupe while using a full agonist can help the transition onto bupe a little easier. By taking microgram doses of bupe and then take your full agonist in ever tapering doses.

I find gabapentin to be a decent potentiator of some opioids (excluding stuff like hydrocodone/morphine), but the higher doses give me ataxia, like I've been drinking and I will bump into things and it doesn't really feel euphoric once you go higher.

I'd say maybe stick with kratom & gabapentin, as the lope won't do much for the mental part of withdrawal and the doses of lope required can be hefty & cause heart arrhythmia. Plus you can still get PWD taking bupe after you've become dependent on loperamide.

Kratom does affect delta & kappa more so than mu, I think. Buprenorphine is an antagonist at those two receptors. So I can't say for sure there might not be PWD from kratom. IME kratom has never given me the opioid effects I desire, so I was easily able to jump right back on subs without noticing any PWD. Activation of the kappa receptor often results in dysphoria supposedly.

Hopefully this helps you some tarman. I'd say either kratom with gaba or lope with gaba would be fine to use for the time being, but just remember that lope has an incredibly long half life & the constipation can be dangerous (even cause intestinal paralysis) in the doses needed for most relief.

Well I wrote a book, sorry. So I divvied it up into an "ordered list" (aka bullet points- is that term an American thing? or does everyone call them an ordered 'cept the states?). Please skip to #5 if you don't feel like reading the whole thing- it's my next question: do benadryl and kratom interact in a bad way at all?

1. Thanks Senseone, G_Chem, LucidSDreamr, RUC4, and nomorebenzos, and deathindustrial for your contributions, personal experience, and knowledge regarding buprenorphine and the additional topics. It really helps to hear people's actual, real-life experience. Though this is a message board, I've seen you all post on here, so I know I'm getting good, reliable info.
   
   
2. Kratom from my point of view (just for anyone reading this)
   I did some homework and ultimately landed on a website that has an an african animal in it, 'hungry hungry [part of website's name]'. Their product is fire. Consistent. And clean- they do testing (or at least claim to, they seem legitimate). I've used their stuff many times to quit (an oxymoron i know, let's say "to take a break"). The potency definitely varies, so I'll draw a distinction between potency and quality. They also partially categorize their strains by "slowness" or "fastness". Which is awesome. I love all the slow strains. That's what I recommend for anyone who's looking to use kratom to get away from street opiates. Gas stations and most headshops will have low potency and low quality shit. Anyway, on that vendor's site, in case anyone's reading this and wondering- my favorite strains are the yellow ones for withdrawal. Sleepy, snuggie, mellow yellow- those are some of the yellow names. Now obviously the red strains rank the highest for the slow strains. But there are fast red strains and slow green or slow white strains (though they are rarer, so the general color categorization method is still a good one. When I jump off H, I'm able to get down to 8 grams a day of Kratom- usually takes me a week and some change to get there. Maybe 2 weeks. When I get down to 8 gs a day, I do 2 in the morning, 2 at lunch, 2 when I get home, and 2 at night. Sometimes an extra 2. And then quitting that can be rough, mentally, but I've used benzos to jump off 8 grams a day, and damn it worked a charm. 3 days of xanax for sleep, and all done with that shit. Now, there's still the PAWS you gotta deal with, but it's lessened significantly because all the time spent using kratom and using a low dose has allowed the brain to heal somewhat.
   
   
3. Okay, duly noted about Loperamide, DeathIndustrial. I didn't know that (that it stuck to receptors for a long time). I've never actually used it for withdrawal. I've just wanted to try it once in higher dosages (i'm talkin 10mg or 20mg- not a true recreational dose). I'm super paranoid about my heart, so I'll probably be doing, at most, 10mg, but hey we'll see. I read somewhere that it is good to take with gabapentin, because it will help the gabapentin absorption by slowing digestion, thus giving the gut more time to absorb the gabba. One of the goals with Lope, is just to have it clog up the receptors in my gut. I firmly believe that some of the relief people feel when they take lope has to do with activation of the opioid receptors in the digestive tract. Those receptors are connected to the brain. So my non-doctor's theory is that, even with non-recreational doses, loperamide has the ability to cause the gut receptors to tell the brain to chill out. Like, some sort of upstream or downstream regulatory pathway. I almost know what I'm talking about. However, I will probably take your advice and avoid the lope. I see threads like mine all the time and the OP doesn't want to take people's advice. You're sayin I'm probably good to avoid the lope for a few reasons, and so I'm gonna avoid the lope.
   
   
4. Bupe and Kratom: Thank you for sharing your experience, DeathIndustrial. That's really good to know. So I should be able to just take gaba and kratom for a day or so and then jump on bupe, slowly. My doctor was telling me that some of these opioids they're seeing in the streets are no longer fentanyl, but other types, like even isotonitazine and brorphine. He said both of those are in my area. And he basically said that with some of these types of opioids can linger in the body for a long time, relatively speaking, even though the person might be ticking all the checkboxes for an appropriate level of withdrawal to start bupe induction. So we'll see. Who knows, maybe I'll just do kratom for a week, then bupe for a week. But that might be stupid logic. I dunno. Anybody done brorphine or know about it? I've read about isotonitazne, but other than my gut instinct that I was taking something that wasn't fent, but wasn't heroin a bunch of times, I just don't know what's what.
   
   
5. Does benadryl and Kratom have any nasty interactions? Online, I can't find much, other than some reddit threads. Seems like it's fine. The benadryl would just be for days 1 and 2 I think. I don't have any benzos this time 'round.

 

[Nas47]

I hadn't visited here in a while. Thanks for all the responses, it really means a lot. I fell off the wagon again but the good thing is I have a ton of bupe. I have no benzos but I do have gabapentin. in a few days I'll be quitting again and I'm going to try to wait 24 hours if I can before I attempt the subs. I also have kratom, from a really good distributor. And the person who said if you're on it for more than a few weeks you're just trading one addiction for another is absolutely right. I thought this place was going to try to wean me off it ASAP. And the counseling sessions they make you go to several users were commenting how the other places in town take that approach.

So anyway starting Monday or Tuesday I'm going to be jumping off the old h again. I guess all things considered I can live with bupe for a while. I just don't have the fortitude and willpower to to quit with nothing helping. A couple years ago I quit with alcohol, and although that's not ideal, when you got nothing else it ain't bad.

Here's a question, would I be able to use the kratom to get me through long enough before I can start the bupe? Like can I use something like 20 or 30 grams of good quality kratom to get me to the 24-hour mark and then start the bupe?

I think I'm going to try multipronged approach to day one, maybe like 10 mg of Lope, 8 grams of kratom servings as needed, a little benadryl, a little dxm, and some gabapentin. To get me through until I can start the buprenorphine. Any recommendations that people have I appreciate it. I need to read through the pinned threads.

Thanks again for all the replied, it means more than you know, no matter what your opinion or comment was.

I think you can use Kratom for a while,if you are on H.And stay on Kratom,if it suits you well.If not could transfere on bupe,after waiting the withdrawl.Good luck,be safe

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Well I wrote a book, sorry. So I divvied it up into an "ordered list" (aka bullet points- is that term an American thing? or does everyone call them an ordered 'cept the states?). Please skip to #5 if you don't feel like reading the whole thing- it's my next question: do benadryl and kratom interact in a bad way at all?

1. Thanks Senseone, G_Chem, LucidSDreamr, RUC4, and nomorebenzos, and deathindustrial for your contributions, personal experience, and knowledge regarding buprenorphine and the additional topics. It really helps to hear people's actual, real-life experience. Though this is a message board, I've seen you all post on here, so I know I'm getting good, reliable info.
   
   
2. Kratom from my point of view (just for anyone reading this)
   I did some homework and ultimately landed on a website that has an an african animal in it, 'hungry hungry [part of website's name]'. Their product is fire. Consistent. And clean- they do testing (or at least claim to, they seem legitimate). I've used their stuff many times to quit (an oxymoron i know, let's say "to take a break"). The potency definitely varies, so I'll draw a distinction between potency and quality. They also partially categorize their strains by "slowness" or "fastness". Which is awesome. I love all the slow strains. That's what I recommend for anyone who's looking to use kratom to get away from street opiates. Gas stations and most headshops will have low potency and low quality shit. Anyway, on that vendor's site, in case anyone's reading this and wondering- my favorite strains are the yellow ones for withdrawal. Sleepy, snuggie, mellow yellow- those are some of the yellow names. Now obviously the red strains rank the highest for the slow strains. But there are fast red strains and slow green or slow white strains (though they are rarer, so the general color categorization method is still a good one. When I jump off H, I'm able to get down to 8 grams a day of Kratom- usually takes me a week and some change to get there. Maybe 2 weeks. When I get down to 8 gs a day, I do 2 in the morning, 2 at lunch, 2 when I get home, and 2 at night. Sometimes an extra 2. And then quitting that can be rough, mentally, but I've used benzos to jump off 8 grams a day, and damn it worked a charm. 3 days of xanax for sleep, and all done with that shit. Now, there's still the PAWS you gotta deal with, but it's lessened significantly because all the time spent using kratom and using a low dose has allowed the brain to heal somewhat.
   
   
3. Okay, duly noted about Loperamide, DeathIndustrial. I didn't know that (that it stuck to receptors for a long time). I've never actually used it for withdrawal. I've just wanted to try it once in higher dosages (i'm talkin 10mg or 20mg- not a true recreational dose). I'm super paranoid about my heart, so I'll probably be doing, at most, 10mg, but hey we'll see. I read somewhere that it is good to take with gabapentin, because it will help the gabapentin absorption by slowing digestion, thus giving the gut more time to absorb the gabba. One of the goals with Lope, is just to have it clog up the receptors in my gut. I firmly believe that some of the relief people feel when they take lope has to do with activation of the opioid receptors in the digestive tract. Those receptors are connected to the brain. So my non-doctor's theory is that, even with non-recreational doses, loperamide has the ability to cause the gut receptors to tell the brain to chill out. Like, some sort of upstream or downstream regulatory pathway. I almost know what I'm talking about. However, I will probably take your advice and avoid the lope. I see threads like mine all the time and the OP doesn't want to take people's advice. You're sayin I'm probably good to avoid the lope for a few reasons, and so I'm gonna avoid the lope.
   
   
4. Bupe and Kratom: Thank you for sharing your experience, DeathIndustrial. That's really good to know. So I should be able to just take gaba and kratom for a day or so and then jump on bupe, slowly. My doctor was telling me that some of these opioids they're seeing in the streets are no longer fentanyl, but other types, like even isotonitazine and brorphine. He said both of those are in my area. And he basically said that with some of these types of opioids can linger in the body for a long time, relatively speaking, even though the person might be ticking all the checkboxes for an appropriate level of withdrawal to start bupe induction. So we'll see. Who knows, maybe I'll just do kratom for a week, then bupe for a week. But that might be stupid logic. I dunno. Anybody done brorphine or know about it? I've read about isotonitazne, but other than my gut instinct that I was taking something that wasn't fent, but wasn't heroin a bunch of times, I just don't know what's what.
   
   
5. Does benadryl and Kratom have any nasty interactions? Online, I can't find much, other than some reddit threads. Seems like it's fine. The benadryl would just be for days 1 and 2 I think. I don't have any benzos this time 'round.

Nah, benadryl and kratom are fine to use together I believe.

Yeah, loperamide can definitely help some of the physical symptoms, even in low doses, but it does hang around a long time. Considering not much of it makes it into the brain, I can't see PWD from it being that severe. It is technically a full agonist compared to buprenorphine though.

I think you'll be good avoiding the lope though.

I don't know much about brorphine but I've heard of it and have read that it's incredibly potent. Like OD-worthy potent.
I haven't fucked around with street heroin in years now, so I'm not sure what all is out there anymore but it doesn't surprise me. Even though a lot of these potent opioids have a short duration of action, they do linger around in the body a long time (fent for example).

Actual heroin is a luxury to find I imagine. IMO, the street "heroin" is going to keep getting stronger, more addictive and deadlier until our stupid country ends it arbitrary drug war.

When you start your bupe, start with microdoses and work your way up til your comfortable.
It's not going to be totally easy no matter what. There's going to be some discomfort but it's doable.

One thing to know is that if you do end up giving yourself PWD, it only lasts about an hour or so. And then eventually the buprenorphine will take over. You'll still feel a little crappy for the first few days or weeks on bupe no matter what, cause it won't be activating your receptors as much as full agonists.

By microdosing the bupe first, you can kind of gauge your reaction to it. If you take a micro dose and you feel it's putting you into withdrawal, you can always take some more kratom/lope & the dose of bupe won't be enough to block it all.

I've done this transitioning from bupe to heroin (for 5 days) and then back onto bupe. I'd wake up, take a microdose of bupe, wait a bit and then do a bump of heroin. I continue to do this by raising my bupe dose ever so slightly, while lowering the dose of heroin (or whatever full agonist) slightly. This way the bupe starts to build up in your system over a few days and makes PWD less likely or at least less painful if it does happen. But this method is super tricky with something like fentanyl or brorphine (i'd imagine).

Hopefully you luck out tarman. I think kratom and gaba is your best bet, as bupe IMO is much stronger than something like kratom, so any PWD should be minimal I would think. Tough to know since everyone's body chemistry is different, but I wish you the best of luck man!

Probably a good thing you're choosing to get on bupe rather than continue risking death from these highly potent opioids. We don't wanna lose you tarman!

 

[tarman]

Thank you. I cringe at my last post, reading it now, but I won't delete it, though I want to. Badly. What a cheeseball post. XD

The one good thing about kratom is that you get your sex drive back. Bupe keeps your libido low. That's honestly the main thing why I don't like the bupe. Otherwise, I'd be fine taking it for a long time. Ok well, since people are saying that 16mg and 20mg is a helluva high dose, my aim is to come out taking 2 to 4mg a day of subs by the end of this. Maybe 6mg. Tonight I'll be running out... one more good night of sleep then tomorrow it's the starting line. Like I said, the place i'm going, the people in the counseling room are taking like 32, 40, and 48mg a day.

Also, too bad zubsolv isn't generic yet. I much prefer the minty dissolving pill versus the weird fake orange chemical taste of the generic subs.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Thank you. I cringe at my last post, reading it now, but I won't delete it, though I want to. Badly. What a cheeseball post. XD

The one good thing about kratom is that you get your sex drive back. Bupe keeps your libido low. That's honestly the main thing why I don't like the bupe. Otherwise, I'd be fine taking it for a long time. Ok well, since people are saying that 16mg and 20mg is a helluva high dose, my aim is to come out taking 2 to 4mg a day of subs by the end of this. Maybe 6mg. Tonight I'll be running out... one more good night of sleep then tomorrow it's the starting line. Like I said, the place i'm going, the people in the counseling room are taking like 32, 40, and 48mg a day.

Also, too bad zubsolv isn't generic yet. I much prefer the minty dissolving pill versus the weird fake orange chemical taste of the generic subs.

Don't worry about it man.

I think we've all been where you've been, so no worries. haha


And yeah those doses of bupe are fucking ridiculous!!! lol holy shit. I find that going over into those doses starts to make you feel really really dysphoric. Especially when you're constant soaked in bupe molecule. Almost like you're in a constant state of withdrawal as the bupe just antagonizes your receptors at that point.