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Which drugs should a drug naive person try?

Doing a successful and enlightening job of introducing a powerful drug to a new user is a sacred tradition of sorts. Those who do this and do it with aplomb are modern-day shamans in my eyes, and I applaud those who possess the courage to do so.
Agreed - though the term 'shaman' has a cringey undertone to it nowadays for me, but that is another discussion - I think if you do introduce someone to something like DMT or LSD without them enquiring about it on their own first, you'd better know what the fuck you are doing.
 
Yeah you got it, champ. Coming right up…

Here ya go:

Adolescent γ-hydroxybutyric acid exposure decreases cortical N-methyl-d-aspartate receptor and impairs spatial learning

Satisfied? Like I'm the first person ever to call GHB a disso…

EDIT (bold mine): “Analyses […] showed that GHB produced dose-related increases in subjective ratings of sedative-like, stimulant-like, positive mood, and dissociative effects, but no changes in psychomotor performance measures or blood pressure.”
That's quoted from Behavioral effects of gamma-hydroxybutyrate in humans
Not quite good enough for me. Interesting paper though.

That paper demonstrates NMDA receptor down regulation subsequent to adolescent ghb usage, not ghb binding to NMDA receptor. The mk801 studies we're performed after the ghb was metabolized. They postulate excitotoxicity via ghb receptor mediated calcium influx (due to colocalization of NMDA and ghb receptors).

"In the present study, following GHB exposure NMDA receptors were downregulated in the frontal cortex, but not in the hippocampus."

The other paper only talks about subjective effects which aren't really enlightening (ie ghb doesn't feel dissociative to me). Plenty of drugs feel dissociative (muscimol, large doses of thc, salvinorin A, high doses of opioids) without at all blocking NMDA receptors.

Finally parroting something from an Internet drug forum doesn't really enhance the probability of it being correct.


Edit:

Also:

Thalamic NMDA receptors in the γ-hydroxybutyrate model of absence seizures: a cerebral microinjection study in rats​

Discussion

The major findings of the present study may be summarized as follows: (a) Bilateral infusions of NMDA into thalamic mediodorsal or intralaminar central lateral/paracentral or ventroposterolateral or reticular nucleus of the thalamus dose dependently suppressed generalized spike-wave discharges induced by GHB. This effect of NMDA was more pronounced in mediodorsal and intralaminar nuclei; (b) no such inhi- bition of SWD activity was observed when NMDA infusions were made into the above thalamic sites after the onset of SWD; (c) pretreatment with high doses of NMDA receptor antagonists, MK-801 or ketamine or CGP 43487, also suppressed GHB-induced SWD dose dependently with effects of MK-801 and ketamine being more pronounced in the mediodorsal and intralaminar thalamic nuclei; (d) NMDA receptor antagonists, in lower doses which did not produce inhibition of GHB- induced SWD, dose dependently antagonized the anti- SWD effect of NMDA.

It looks like ghb receptors are often co expressed with NMDA receptors and there is interplay. However, I still haven't seen any paper that shows ghb binding at NMDA receptors and inhibiting them.


 
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I know I'm late, but I'm not surprised about GHB and the NMDA receptor. I've also heard ethanol is an NMDA receptor antagonist. Especially the first few minutes following a shot. Something about large amounts in quick periods antagonizing NMDA more. I have no idea where I read that though.

My favorite NMDA receptor antagonist solvent is ether. Hahaha!!

Talk about a wild trip every time!!
 
OP you should try ether if you ever want to experience huffing a volatile solvent. Most of the others are far, far more toxic and not as safe to ingest. Ether is also a much more intense TRIP than almost anything.
 
Do you feel that trip reports of illicit drugs are in any way an endorsement of illicit drug use?

In a sense they are, yes. Although their purpose is to provide a data point.

Kind of a “do as I say, not as I do” approach though, isn't it?

100%

Do you think there's anyone out there who has read your trip reports and subsequently felt persuaded to try that drug themselves? I'm not knocking you for writing trip reports – indeed they're well written and informative. I even came across some book someone published that was a compilation of your trip reports, that's how prolific of a trip-report-writer you are, evidently, and you've inspired some people I'm guessing. You really don't think encouraging responsible use is a more reasonable approach? Deeming something forbidden fruit just makes that thing all the more alluring to the wrong kinds of people… Idk, just my proverbial $0.02.

Can you point me to that book, by any chance? I don't like that someone is profiting off of that. I have wanted to do the same thing at some point. Might be able to do something about it, as everything on Erowid is copyrighted by Erowid.

Anyway yeah, of course people have read my trip reports and perhaps decided to start using drugs because of it. I guess what I'm talking about is, if someone approached me personally and asked me if I think they should start using drugs, I'd be hesitant to say yes. I might recommend psychedelics if they seemed like they were a good candidate for those. I would recommend against stimulants, opiates and GABAergics, and explain why. If they went on to say I'm gonna do it anyway, I'd switch to trying to help them understand what they were getting into and how to use them safely. I think of it as a tiered approach. Like if someone posts on here "I'm thinking of trying heroin for the first time", I'm gonna recommend they don't, and explain why. If they do it anyway, then I'll try to help them understand how to use it safely and avoid addiction if possible.

I think we should have good information and discussion about the effects of drugs freely available to us, otherwise I wouldn't write trip reports or participate in this forum. I'm not advocating a "just say no" approach. I just also don't want to give the impression that drugs are all fun and games, and it might have helped me if someone had explained in detail to me what ways that opiates (in particular for me) caused their lives harm. I might have decided not to go there and saved myself a whole lot of pain and struggle that I still struggle with today. Then again, I might have ignored them. But I feel like I have to try, anyway, when it comes up in such a way as to allow me an opportunity to be a mentor.
 
I know I'm late, but I'm not surprised about GHB and the NMDA receptor. I've also heard ethanol is an NMDA receptor antagonist. Especially the first few minutes following a shot. Something about large amounts in quick periods antagonizing NMDA more. I have no idea where I read that though.

My favorite NMDA receptor antagonist solvent is ether. Hahaha!!

Talk about a wild trip every time!!
Ether and ethanol exhibit pretty broad spectrum effects on a bunch of ion channels in ways that reflect the pharmacology of gaseous anesthetics.

The charge of GHB carboxyl causes to have simpler and more specific pharmacology.
 
Can you point me to that book, by any chance? I don't like that someone is profiting off of that. I have wanted to do the same thing at some point. Might be able to do something about it, as everything on Erowid is copyrighted by Erowid.
Sure thing. Whoever it is called the book Into The Flood. Here's a link to it, though do note that it's not under a secure socket layer: http://marisafulper.com/images/IntoTheFlood/TPC_IntoTheFlood.pdf

Looks like you can find all the contact info you need on that base domain, marisafulper.com. It was a limited run of 50 copies, according to the website. If it were I, I probably would be more flattered than upset, but I understand either way.

If I were you I think I would be more upset about someone using my verbiage in the following manner without permission (assuming you didn't give them permission): https://chemical-collective.com/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-4-ho-met/ (Hit Ctrl or Command + F and search for the term “Xorkoth” on the page to find it quickly.) That looks like an instance of you providing testimonial for 4-HO-MET, which is—admittedly—a personal favorite of mine, but nevertheless, if this happened without permission, that's not so cool.
I just also don't want to give the impression that drugs are all fun and games
It's not morally objectionable to endorse something with the potential to be dangerous, you know, so long as you do it with appropriate cautions and warnings as needed. For example, it can be dangerous to skydive and the threat of death is undeniably present when one throws oneself from a plane, and yet no one is seen as being a monster for advocating people should try skydiving perhaps—contingent on safety & such—because they see the thrill as being worthy of the minimal amount of danger you're actually in if you're educated sufficiently on the topic, up to and including have experience with tandem skydiving. You see what I'm saying?

I recognize this is only my own opinion here, but I think one can advocate responsible drug use without moral dilemma or giving the impression that “drugs are all fun and games.” Also consider for a moment this page on The Erowid titled “Xorkoth's Collection”: https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.cgi?A=ShowAuthor&ID=266
But I feel like I have to try, anyway, when it comes up in such a way as to allow me an opportunity to be a mentor.
And that's how I feel when I read a post on here ignorantly rambling on about how meth 100% for sure causes people to turn into toothless spider-monkeyed, depraved criminals like the personification of a Superjail! intro the very moment they set eyes on a shard of crystal meth. It's just simply not true. I mean, consider Reefer Madness for a moment and remember the effect smear campaigns and other propaganda can have on public opinion of certain subjects.
 
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Plenty of drugs feel dissociative (muscimol, large doses of thc, salvinorin A, high doses of opioids) without at all blocking NMDA receptors.
Yeah I guess you bring up a good point. It's not entirely accurate to refer to GHB as a “disso” no matter how casual the connection attempts to be. I appreciate you being a stickler for the truth here. It doesn't really change my point much if I need to reclassify my list a little bit. Call GHB “GABA-ergic” then if you insist and classify it with benzos and ethyl alcohol if that makes more sense to you. Hell, cocaine get classified as a “narcotic” by the U.S. govt. despite being a CNS stimulant on the basis that it anesthetizes.

I guess I was trying to think of a drug that isn't Ketamine, doesn't commonly involve the initials “PCP” or “PCE”, oh and also isn't DXM, but is a dissociative. I remembered seeing a paper mentioning GHB having NMDA activity, but I'll concede that this connection is still a bit tenuous and not the primary activity. Yet for me, low-level Ketamine use feels not unlike being instantly rendered drunk as hell on ethanol minus some of the sloppiness and speech-slurring. For me the feeling borders on having the spins. I find this attribute to be present in GHB doses that go slightly beyond my ideal "window" of perfect dose… it's very dose sensitive, and getting the dose just right is one tricky aspect of using this drug properly… Anyway, sorry for the confusion and I hope you cleared up the matter for anyone confused by the vagueness vis-à-vis classification and my earlier response.
 
Yeah I guess you bring up a good point. It's not entirely accurate to refer to GHB as a “disso” no matter how casual the connection attempts to be. I appreciate you being a stickler for the truth here. It doesn't really change my point much if I need to reclassify my list a little bit. Call GHB “GABA-ergic” then if you insist and classify it with benzos and ethyl alcohol if that makes more sense to you. Hell, cocaine get classified as a “narcotic” by the U.S. govt. despite being a CNS stimulant on the basis that it anesthetizes.

I guess I was trying to think of a drug that isn't Ketamine, doesn't commonly involve the initials “PCP” or “PCE”, oh and also isn't DXM, but is a dissociative. I remembered seeing a paper mentioning GHB having NMDA activity, but I'll concede that this connection is still a bit tenuous and not the primary activity. Yet for me, low-level Ketamine use feels not unlike being instantly rendered drunk as hell on ethanol minus some of the sloppiness and speech-slurring. For me the feeling borders on having the spins. I find this attribute to be present in GHB doses that go slightly beyond my ideal "window" of perfect dose… it's very dose sensitive, and getting the dose just right is one tricky aspect of using this drug properly… Anyway, sorry for the confusion and I hope you cleared up the matter for anyone confused by the vagueness vis-à-vis classification and my earlier response.

I feel like narcotic is used by cops to mean drug that feels good.

There are non-morphinan, non-arylcyclohexylamine dissos like diphenidine (and friends), and rare ones like mk801 which only have one or two trip reports. I guess salvinorin A is a dissociative but uncanny to the point of being quite disquieting sometimes.
 
Sure thing. Whoever it is called the book Into The Flood. Here's a link to it, though do note that it's not under a secure socket layer: http://marisafulper.com/images/IntoTheFlood/TPC_IntoTheFlood.pdf

Looks like you can find all the contact info you need on that base domain, marisafulper.com. It was a limited run of 50 copies, according to the website. If it were me, I probably would be more flattered than upset, but I understand either way.

If I were you I think I would be more upset about someone using my verbiage in the following manner without permission (assuming you didn't give them permission): https://chemical-collective.com/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-4-ho-met/ (Hit Ctrl or Command + F and search for the term “Xorkoth” on the page to find it quickly.) That looks like an instance of you providing testimonial for 4-HO-MET, which is—admittedly—a personal favorite of mine, but nevertheless, if this happened without permission, that's not so cool.

Thanks. I AM flattered, I just don't want other people publishing my writing, for various reasons.

EDIT: Upon checking it out, actually that's pretty cool. :) Gonna reach out anyway though, I'd like to at least be in contact.
 
I feel like narcotic is used by cops to mean drug that feels good.
Well I'm referring to the language used in the 1914 Harrison Narcotic Act in the United States which classified cocaine along with opium and Heroin as “narcotics”. Again, as I understand it, cocaine wound up on the list because it was a known anesthetic in a time when anesthesia was not at all common, as scary as that is… And that's kind of my point: taxonomy is tedious and if someone has a spirited and solid argument, I'm not one to argue on the subject of taxonomy…
There are non-morphinan, non-arylcyclohexylamine dissos like diphenidine (and friends),
Yeah I briefly considered a piperidine dissociative class compound but we're talking about suggestions for a drug-naive individual and I'm just not so sure rare-ish dissociatives are a great option.
and rare ones like mk801 which only have one or two trip reports.
That one does not sound like a winner to me. You know? No thanks on the Olney's Lesions… no my idea of a fun weekend… Again: we're making suggestions for the drug-naive let's not forget, so challenging suggestions like this, or like Jimson Weed or something are pretty much out…
I guess salvinorin A is a dissociative but uncanny to the point of being quite disquieting sometimes.
I can't say I would recommend Salvia either though, nor Amanita Muscaria mushrooms.

Thanks. I AM flattered, I just don't want other people publishing my writing, for various reasons.
Again: I totally understand that. No need to explain. I've been plagiarized before on the Internet and I fuckin' hated it.
EDIT: Upon checking it out, actually that's pretty cool. :) Gonna reach out anyway though, I'd like to at least be in contact.
See what I mean? You didn't even know about that publication. That's my point – knowingly or not, you're endorsing drug use—albeit of the responsible variety—by having published numerous trip reports spanning some two decades, and this despite having overcome a serious drug problem in the past. You're a glowing, shining endorsement that drugs can be—and oftentimes are—used the right way, and that self-discipline in this regard is very much possible, doable, attainable, and in your case like many others, real.

I understand being reticent to advise others to break the law, but I would counter that civil disobedience plays an important role in establish civil rights, and among those civil rights is the right to explore your own mind and cognition responsibly with drugs if one is an adult and desires to do so.

Haha, I like how you went from ready to lawyer up to realizing you have an unofficial fan club you didn't even know about, lol. That's pretty cool. 🤘😄
 
Agreed - though the term 'shaman' has a cringey undertone to it nowadays for me, but that is another discussion -
Yeah it's a buzzword, but just because something is trite doesn't make it untrue.
I think if you do introduce someone to something like DMT or LSD without them enquiring about it on their own first, you'd better know what the fuck you are doing.
Yeah approaching psychedelics with any kind of insouciance or carelessness can create situations that easily spin out of control. I also see what you’re saying about how it’s strange so many people easily endorse psychedelics, which all things considered can be pretty fucking heavy on mind-altering effects that on the far end of the spectrum can end in delirium (but usually stays within some boundaries of consciousness). Meanwhile, relatively unspectacular drugs like a low-level opiate or benzo are viewed as being some giant drug problem that’s all but guaranteed to ruin anyone’s life regardless of their approach toward using.

The thing is: recreational drug use involves certain risks. The most we can do is seek to minimize said risks if we value what recreational drugs bring to our lives. It’s everyone’s individual choice to try drugs or not, but FWIW, my proverbial two cents here is: life is short and you only live twice or something so better squeeze in some drug use time because you don’t want to miss the incredible gift that many of the them have proven to be for me and many others…

I encourage anyone of sound mind and body to try each and every drug that they’re interested in trying, just please do so responsibly, carefully, with safety in mind, and lead by example; don’t be an asshole.
 
Yeah, or I like doing so with self-discipline, personally

It's trite but true. I agree.

Yeah that is one way I guess, if one's career is one's priority, but career isn't everything. Personal health, family relationships, seeking out meaningful experiences in this world while one has the chance, education, romance, acquiring new skills… other things matter and usually make someone much more interesting than those purely concerned with moving up the career ladder, so to speak. Just thought I'd point that out, but otherwise I'm agree with what you're saying here. All things in modesty, even excess.
When I said
Yeah, or I like doing so with self-discipline, personally

It's trite but true. I agree.

Yeah that is one way I guess, if one's career is one's priority, but career isn't everything. Personal health, family relationships, seeking out meaningful experiences in this world while one has the chance, education, romance, acquiring new skills… other things matter and usually make someone much more interesting than those purely concerned with moving up the career ladder, so to speak. Just thought I'd point that out, but otherwise I'm agree with what you're saying here. All things in modesty, even excess.
One way to self check is asking yourself, "If I got called to life suddenly, would I be able to live and if I were, what would my life be?"

^^^Here's the origin thought.
I went with work and career, since life is something we all work at living and what life is becoming are the hopes we fulfill.
 
Yeah, or I like doing so with self-discipline, personally

It's trite but true. I agree.

Yeah that is one way I guess, if one's career is one's priority, but career isn't everything. Personal health, family relationships, seeking out meaningful experiences in this world while one has the chance, education, romance, acquiring new skills… other things matter and usually make someone much more interesting than those purely concerned with moving up the career ladder, so to speak. Just thought I'd point that out, but otherwise I'm agree with what you're saying here. All things in modesty, even excess.
When I said
Yeah, or I like doing so with self-discipline, personally

It's trite but true. I agree.

Yeah that is one way I guess, if one's career is one's priority, but career isn't everything. Personal health, family relationships, seeking out meaningful experiences in this world while one has the chance, education, romance, acquiring new skills… other things matter and usually make someone much more interesting than those purely concerned with moving up the career ladder, so to speak. Just thought I'd point that out, but otherwise I'm agree with what you're saying here. All things in modesty, even excess.
One way to self check is asking yourself, "If you had to live life
I would argue the most responsible use would be no use. No risk of overdose, addiction, etc.

Harm reduction, as I understand it, is for encouraging safe use if you were going to do it anyway
Agreed - though the term 'shaman' has a cringey undertone to it nowadays for me, but that is another discussion - I think if you do introduce someone to something like DMT or LSD without them enquiring about it on their own first, you'd better know what the fuck you are doing.

"The most powerful thing," would be as if calling each of these things a god and then worshipping it, and that would be so far outside technology that even spirituality & celestial speech would still the waters enough to shine Hope's light.
The things on this Earth, mankind's home and what we're physically made of...
The things here on Terraforming, where we have a foundation that's been for thousands of years...
The spirit story and how walking a brave path can use words to shape ideas, let words fly, and begin speaking of the titans of emotion or the titanic that sank into a story that lives. Motion pictures of forgiveness are a salve and raising my hand to say that the picturing of emotion is being lit... (I'm stopping by to let you know that saving and being saved are right here) ... not lit as in high but lit as in lamp unto thy feet, although as I write this right for you I keep 'us' in it to know there are other things to tend to, such as your health and wellspring of cultures. The law wall doesn't say that Moses seeing a burning bush in a story tellers eyes focused upon the people within would be like lighting a bowl of incense...
How much of an impact will these words make means I stand up for, to, & behind them!!
... aromatic resin, building a tower of words that keep story tellers able to tell the truth about how burnt offerings were a thing of the past. At this age we know the ages and remembering them all is something we don't have to do uninformed. Informing them (users, story tellers, story lovers, players, the crowd, family, future generations, etc) of anything or of everything means we define ourselves with ourselves in mind. The Right Kind of Crazy can't be Left Out. Harm removal and harm reduction are both accomplished through culture. 🌳🍃🙏👍
 
Ahh gotta love synthetic cannabinoids there’s nothing like being hooked on potpourri I used to smoke 7g a day and living life in near constant paranoia because it was cheap
So 7g a day seems like a lot. I've heard that JWH-018 is quite good though, actually.
 
So 7g a day seems like a lot. I've heard that JWH-018 is quite good though, actually.
I really don’t know to be honest. I’ve heard stories about people getting pretty fucked up even dying on some small doses of the rc in em. I personally never really had an issue other than the blatant fact that I definitely had a problem. Jwh-018 was the shit though man we’re talking early days when it just hit the market they was the good stuff went away pretty quickly though at least around me
 
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