Why do I find an L-Citrulline/L-Arginine combo better than a higher dose of L-Citrulline alone?

[RDP89]

L-Arginine has a shitty bioavailability. L-Citrulline is efficiently converted into Arginine. So the common consensus now is that L-Citrulline alone is better and Arginine a waste.

So why then do I feel a better vasodilation/ blood flow effect from 6 Grams L-Citrulline and 5 G L-Arginine than I do from 9 G L-Citrulline alone? Should I try 12 G Citrulline?

I am a distance runner and it wouldn’t matter except Arginine kinda messes with my stomach which can be uncomfortable and problematic in a race.

 

[Skippwiggins]

I dont know the science behind it but do what works best for you brother.

Cardarine(oral non steroid) and boldenone(steroid originally produced for horse racing) are the absolute kings of cardio and endurance performance enhancing drugs. You're capacity to keep going is ramped up to a level I didn't think possible. Both these drugs are phenomenal at what they do.

 

[RDP89]

I dont know the science behind it but do what works best for you brother.

Cardarine(oral non steroid) and boldenone(steroid originally produced for horse racing) are the absolute kings of cardio and endurance performance enhancing drugs. You're capacity to keep going is ramped up to a level I didn't think possible. Both these drugs are phenomenal at what they do.

Wow, Carderine sounds very interesting. I had never heard of it. Thanks alot!

I think Erythropoietin is the king of cardiovascular enhancing drugs, but is dangerous to be on unless one is continually monitored by a physician because of the risk of blood clots.

 

[Skippwiggins]

Wow, Carderine sounds very interesting. I had never heard of it. Thanks alot!

I think Erythropoietin is the king of cardiovascular enhancing drugs, but is dangerous to be on unless one is continually monitored by a physician because of the risk of blood clots.

Yes EPO wins, but its very dangerous. Equipoise/boldenone at a high dose will compete with EPO. I would bet its 75-80% as effective without the lethal risks.

 

[Serotonin101]

Yes EPO wins, but its very dangerous. Equipoise/boldenone at a high dose will compete with EPO. I would bet its 75-80% as effective without the lethal risks.

The only reason eq is of benefit is because of its effects of raising hematocrit. So it's a different mechanism of action (androgen mediated release of EPO vs direct exogenous EPO administration), but the end effect is the same. Which means both can still have potential hazards of increasing hematocrit.

 

[RDP89]

The only reason eq is of benefit is because of its effects of raising hematocrit. So it's a different mechanism of action (androgen mediated release of EPO vs direct exogenous EPO administration), but the end effect is the same. Which means both can still have potential hazards of increasing hematocrit.

I have only a basic understanding if all this stuff, so this may seem like a silly question, but does exogenous epo raise red blood cell levels significantly higher than high altitude training? I’m assuming it does, because of the danger of blood clots.
Also, what other ways are there to accomplish the same effect when one doesn’t have access to high altitude areas or high altitude simulating tents, masks etc.?

 

[Serotonin101]

I have only a basic understanding if all this stuff, so this may seem like a silly question, but does exogenous epo raise red blood cell levels significantly higher than high altitude training? I’m assuming it does, because of the danger of blood clots.
Also, what other ways are there to accomplish the same effect when one doesn’t have access to high altitude areas or high altitude simulating tents, masks etc.?

It would depend on the dose of epo administered and the comparative altitude/decreased oxygen saturation of the air. But for most intents and purposes yes and in a much faster manner.

And there really isn't any. The masks are garbage anyway as your body needs continuous exposure to the environment before changes occur in any significant amount. An hour a day or two isn't gonna do shit.

 

[RDP89]

https://www.chiroeco.com/combining-l-arginine-and-l-citrulline-to-improve-circulation/
Okay this aligns with my experience. So many people out there are saying to only use citrulline and arginine is just a total waste, but the combo is just so obviously more vasodilating.

The following is quoted from the above link.

One of the more interesting research findings regarding L-arginine and L-citrulline is that combining them can significantly increase efficacy in the production of nitric oxide, even at a lower dose than from either amino acid alone. A number of animal and human studies appear to show this effect.3-6

A 2019 review article in the journal Nutrients reported on the state of research regarding the use of L-Arginine and L-Citrulline to improve blood pressure.3 In pooling together the findings from smaller papers, the authors noted that oral L-Arginine supplementation can lower blood pressure by 5.39/2.66 mmHg, which is comparable to that from changes in diet and exercise. The pooled data also showed that L-Citrulline may be able to lower blood pressure by 4.1/2.08 to 7.54/3.77 mmHg, although results were somewhat mixed.3

A 2017 article in Bioscience Biotechnology & Biochemistrypresented the findings from a study comparing the effects of combining oral L-Citrulline and L-Arginine supplements on plasma L-Arginine levels.4 For this study, 42 healthy Japanese men received 2g of L-Citrulline or L-Arginine per day, a 1g combination of the two, or placebo. The researchers found that those study subjects who took the combination of L-Citrulline and L-Arginine had higher plasma L-Arginine levels than just L-arginine by itself.4

A 2014 article in Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications reported on an animal study using rats and rabbits to determine if the combination of L-Citrulline and L-Arginine improved plasma nitric oxide levels better than each amino acid individually.5 Similar to Suzuki’s study,4 the combination of L-Citrulline and L-Arginine resulted in higher plasma levels of nitric oxide levels at a dose lower than for either amino acid alone. Furthermore, blood circulation similarly showed more improvement with the combination supplement than with each one individually.

 

[UltraVioletC]

Yes EPO wins, but its very dangerous. Equipoise/boldenone at a high dose will compete with EPO. I would bet its 75-80% as effective without the lethal risks.

When you say compete do you mean rivals it in terms of efficacy? Because boldenone induces erythropoiesis in the kidneys

 

[Serotonin101]

When you say compete do you mean rivals it in terms of efficacy? Because boldenone induces erythropoiesis in the kidneys

Personally I never experienced much increase of rbc with epo compared to other aas in similar dose. I think the only reason it's touted as such is because it can generally be ran at higher doses without much perceived side effects. My rbc is highest when I run a decent chunk of test and deca. Many people have to do therapeutic phlebotomy on simple trt doses of test. I'm gonna consult my primary care doc about a prescription for therapeutic as covid affecting donation centers pushed my donation times back and my blood is getting too thick for the red cross to accept (their guidelines are retarded and arbitrary and they need to update them so they stop wasting thousands of pints of good blood every year and complain about a shortage).

 

[UltraVioletC]

Personally I never experienced much increase of rbc with epo compared to other aas in similar dose. I think the only reason it's touted as such is because it can generally be ran at higher doses without much perceived side effects. My rbc is highest when I run a decent chunk of test and deca. Many people have to do therapeutic phlebotomy on simple trt doses of test. I'm gonna consult my primary care doc about a prescription for therapeutic as covid affecting donation centers pushed my donation times back and my blood is getting too thick for the red cross to accept (their guidelines are retarded and arbitrary and they need to update them so they stop wasting thousands of pints of good blood every year and complain about a shortage).

Thats crazy about your donation center. Mine says they're short of donors due to covid and are always trying to get me to come in. I go to blood assurance

 

[Skippwiggins]

I will have to dig to find the research but those studies on kidney damage from boldenone are not concrete. I know a few guys who run it year round at 400mg+ and have for years. I will try to find that research.

 

[Serotonin101]

Thats crazy about your donation center. Mine says they're short of donors due to covid and are always trying to get me to come in. I go to blood assurance

Yeah during 2021 they had to change the way they did donations due to proximity of the donation beds so scheduling appointments was hard. My RBC kept creeping up I guess and just the other day they turned me away because my RBC was too high. They'll also turn you away if your HR is over 100 or if BP is even slightly out of range. Red cross turns away people with hemochromatosis and poly cythemia as well except for therapeutic phlebotomy which they toss. Despite numerous studies showing the blood is safe and literally just applying to the fda to be granted permission to take the blood. So the red cross here is literally tossing out 10s of thousands of pints of therapeutic phlebotomy blood that could be used in patients. Not to mention their antiquates views on male-male sex prohibiting many donors.

 

[UltraVioletC]

Wow. My HR was slightly over 100 a couple times and they said "oh that actually fairly normal as lots of people get nervous when theyre about to donate blood so its to be expected". Ill avoid Red Cross if I ever need to switch donation centers.