Why It’s OK To Supp After Your Roll

[G_Chem]

(Originally written for another forum, that then wouldn’t allow me to post it..)

Hey guys,

So I’ve posted informative threads before under various names over the years, back again with another. I feel this one is important because many (if not all) antioxidants supplements while indeed protecting ones brain from toxicity also reduces the overall positive effects.

This has been reported widely anecdotally, and I’ve experienced this myself as well as those close to me. I’ve been rolling about 16yrs give or take, about 10 back I started trying to incorporate antioxidants into my dosing regimen.

I very quickly found the antioxidants I was attempting to use were altering the roll in a way I didn’t like. Shorter roll, less intensity, less euphoria, etc. I tried other ways but nearly gave up until I found the research that said consuming antioxidants after the subjective effects are over still negates toxicity.

I hunted a bit for that particular article but couldn’t find it. I did however find the relevant information needed to plea my case.

MDMA neurotoxicity happens a few different ways but the route most agreed upon to cause the most damage would be the neurotoxic metabolite theory which then creates an overload of free radicals of the oxidative variety.
The metabolites thought to do this are conjugated forms of HMMA and HMA.
These metabolites don’t form immediately in any significant quantities, it takes time for them to be created.

In this article we see peak MDMA urinary concentrations at 4hr, MDA at 8hr, HMMA at 12hr and HMA at 16hr.

Analysis of MDMA and its Metabolites in Urine and Plasma Following a Neurotoxic Dose of MDMA*

Abstract. 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), a commonly encountered drug of abuse, has been shown in a variety of studies to cause neurotoxic effect

academic.oup.com

In this article they detect HMMA up to 33hrs longer than MDMA.

Urinary MDMA, MDA, HMMA, and HMA Excretion Following Controlled MDMA Administration to Humans

Abstract. 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), or ecstasy, is excreted as unchanged drug, 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA), and free and glucuronid

academic.oup.com

An article which shows the neurotoxicity of these metabolites outweighs that of the parent compounds (MDMA), as well as shows the damage done is time dependent.

Neurotoxicity mechanisms of thioether ecstasy metabolites

3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA or “ecstasy”), is a widely abused, psychoactive recreational drug that is known to induce neurotoxic effects. …

www.sciencedirect.com

Now back to my story, I began taking my antioxidants as soon as I came down that same night, usually right before bed. As well as more the next day to keep my antioxidant system “topped off.”

Since making this change I feel I’ve been able to utilize the beneficial nature of these supplements without negating my roll. My comedowns are non-existant even if I roll 2 days in a row (make sure to still average 4-6 rolls a year). I’ve had zero dosage increase in all these years (increasing dose being the number one way to determine if one is experiencing toxicity from this drug.) I truly feel like this method works.

I’ve also used this same method on many people close to me, my wife (who’s been rolling 12yrs now), my family, close friends, and yet to see anyone lose the magic or experience any negativity often associated with this drug.

I’ll finish with this, no need to buy tons of expensive supplements either, I have been using Airborne Chewable tablets which contain a variety of antioxidants and minerals all in one. Who wants to sit there swallowing 15 capsules of various supplements, especially if your at a show or festival? Find something that contains a variety and is easy to consume, if all else fails a multiple vitamin can work in a pinch too.

The main take away is this. We rely on our antioxidants system to negate neurotoxicity (no matter the cause.) During the roll your antioxidant system is being depleted but the nasty neurotoxic metabolites haven’t arrived yet. Upon coming down you taking an antioxidant supplement refills that deplete system just in time for those nasties to arrive. If anything if we were to compare a single dose of antioxidants before a roll VS a single dose after, the after roll dosers would probably be more protected. (Many of the water soluble antioxidants don’t last long in the system.)

So ya, don’t kill your roll with all that Vit C and Lipoic acid your eating every hour and just load up at the end.

-GC

 

[thegreenhand]

Good to know. My first time I was abundantly cautious and was downing antioxidants every hour like a madman. I still rolled like hell but it definitely tampered things compared to the other times where I haven’t taken them during

 

[fasterfb]

Interesting. Thanks for the info @G_Chem

Personally, I always take copious amounts of supplements (vit C, ALA, acetyl-l-carnitine, NAC, etc) before during and after rolling and have never noticed any diminished effects.

 

[Dahaka33]

How often do you take them after comedown hits? Every few hours? Less often? More?

I was planning to drop supplements for my next roll to see if it's gonna hit stronger, so I'll just do it your way instead.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

In the earlier year's SSRI's were also used and showed neuro-protection on paper. When taken at 4- 6 hour's in your roll, after that the effect declined.

I'll admit I actually did this. Though atm I would not fuck around with SSRI's and rather use a combo of anti-oxidant's like you. And limit my use to once in the 3 month's, one redose max.

But relating to your post. If I took the SSRI to early. It effectively stopped, and ruined, the MDMA.

 

[G_Chem]

Interesting. Thanks for the info @G_Chem

Personally, I always take copious amounts of supplements (vit C, ALA, acetyl-l-carnitine, NAC, etc) before during and after rolling and have never noticed any diminished effects.

No problem

In your case if you feel it’s not negating your roll, continue doing what your doing cuz of course more is always better than less. Maybe one day we’ll have some device which tells us how our antioxidant system is doing but until then it’s good to keep loaded up as possible.

How often do you take them after comedown hits? Every few hours? Less often? More?

I was planning to drop supplements for my next roll to see if it's gonna hit stronger, so I'll just do it your way instead.

I personally take some antioxidant supplements right at the end of the experience, usually before bed. Then I take it again the next night, one reason being zinc makes me sleepy.

I eat very healthy though and consume a lot of antioxidant rich foods through my day. If your not someone who eats well I’d probably suggest consuming more when you wake up as well.

Usually I’ll take these supplements for 2-3 days after the experience.

The only “supplements” I know which increase MDMA’s effects are antacids, piracetam, and NAC to bring back magic. I’ve tried the first two and honestly best to just stick with the boring old fashioned way IMO.

In the earlier year's SSRI's were also used and showed neuro-protection on paper. When taken at 4- 6 hour's in your roll, after that the effect declined.

I'll admit I actually did this. Though atm I would not fuck around with SSRI's and rather use a combo of anti-oxidant's like you. And limit my use to once in the 3 month's, one redose max.

But relating to your post. If I took the SSRI to early. It effectively stopped, and ruined, the MDMA.

Ya man I actually remember people talking about this back in my day, mainly late 00’s. As well as seeing the research myself.

I agree though, no matter what good I see on that class of drugs I wouldn’t touch em with a 10ft pole.

-GC

 

[Jmoda]

(Originally written for another forum, that then wouldn’t allow me to post it..)

Hey guys,

So I’ve posted informative threads before under various names over the years, back again with another. I feel this one is important because many (if not all) antioxidants supplements while indeed protecting ones brain from toxicity also reduces the overall positive effects.

This has been reported widely anecdotally, and I’ve experienced this myself as well as those close to me. I’ve been rolling about 16yrs give or take, about 10 back I started trying to incorporate antioxidants into my dosing regimen.

I very quickly found the antioxidants I was attempting to use were altering the roll in a way I didn’t like. Shorter roll, less intensity, less euphoria, etc. I tried other ways but nearly gave up until I found the research that said consuming antioxidants after the subjective effects are over still negates toxicity.

I hunted a bit for that particular article but couldn’t find it. I did however find the relevant information needed to plea my case.

MDMA neurotoxicity happens a few different ways but the route most agreed upon to cause the most damage would be the neurotoxic metabolite theory which then creates an overload of free radicals of the oxidative variety.
The metabolites thought to do this are conjugated forms of HMMA and HMA.
These metabolites don’t form immediately in any significant quantities, it takes time for them to be created.

In this article we see peak MDMA urinary concentrations at 4hr, MDA at 8hr, HMMA at 12hr and HMA at 16hr.

Analysis of MDMA and its Metabolites in Urine and Plasma Following a Neurotoxic Dose of MDMA*

Abstract. 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), a commonly encountered drug of abuse, has been shown in a variety of studies to cause neurotoxic effect

academic.oup.com

In this article they detect HMMA up to 33hrs longer than MDMA.

Urinary MDMA, MDA, HMMA, and HMA Excretion Following Controlled MDMA Administration to Humans

Abstract. 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), or ecstasy, is excreted as unchanged drug, 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA), and free and glucuronid

academic.oup.com

An article which shows the neurotoxicity of these metabolites outweighs that of the parent compounds (MDMA), as well as shows the damage done is time dependent.

Neurotoxicity mechanisms of thioether ecstasy metabolites

3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA or “ecstasy”), is a widely abused, psychoactive recreational drug that is known to induce neurotoxic effects. …

www.sciencedirect.com

Now back to my story, I began taking my antioxidants as soon as I came down that same night, usually right before bed. As well as more the next day to keep my antioxidant system “topped off.”

Since making this change I feel I’ve been able to utilize the beneficial nature of these supplements without negating my roll. My comedowns are non-existant even if I roll 2 days in a row (make sure to still average 4-6 rolls a year). I’ve had zero dosage increase in all these years (increasing dose being the number one way to determine if one is experiencing toxicity from this drug.) I truly feel like this method works.

I’ve also used this same method on many people close to me, my wife (who’s been rolling 12yrs now), my family, close friends, and yet to see anyone lose the magic or experience any negativity often associated with this drug.

I’ll finish with this, no need to buy tons of expensive supplements either, I have been using Airborne Chewable tablets which contain a variety of antioxidants and minerals all in one. Who wants to sit there swallowing 15 capsules of various supplements, especially if your at a show or festival? Find something that contains a variety and is easy to consume, if all else fails a multiple vitamin can work in a pinch too.

The main take away is this. We rely on our antioxidants system to negate neurotoxicity (no matter the cause.) During the roll your antioxidant system is being depleted but the nasty neurotoxic metabolites haven’t arrived yet. Upon coming down you taking an antioxidant supplement refills that deplete system just in time for those nasties to arrive. If anything if we were to compare a single dose of antioxidants before a roll VS a single dose after, the after roll dosers would probably be more protected. (Many of the water soluble antioxidants don’t last long in the system.)

So ya, don’t kill your roll with all that Vit C and Lipoic acid your eating every hour and just load up at the end.

-GC

I always thought that vit c had to be taken 24h in advanced cuz it took that long to "take effect" as an anti-oxidant. Is this just heresay?

 

[G_Chem]

I always thought that vit c had to be taken 24h in advanced cuz it took that long to "take effect" as an anti-oxidant. Is this just heresay?

I’m not super familiar with its pharmacokinetics but I think your right, it has an incredibly long half life. Alpha-lipoic acid is the one I think used often. I do know a lot of people consume VIT C hourly or often at least during a roll along with other antioxidants.

This is also why I usually suggest people eat healthy the couple of days before a roll if they don’t normally, to prepare the body adequately with what it needs beforehand. Magnesium supplements beforehand are good too as we don’t have enough in our diet and rolling depletes it even more.

Also another reason to make sure one is consuming both long and short acting antioxidants, fat and water soluble.

-GC

 

[diaphon]

I've experienced the same thing, lots of antioxidants tamp down the effects of the roll. This is a good method @G_Chem, thanks for posting.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

the best thing after mdma is DMT it will remove any comedown

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

I saw this thread title and thought it meant that it's ok to drink booze after your roll

(In the UK, 'supping' is a colloquialism for getting pissed)